• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Explain to me the cons of basing our culture off religion.

Status
Not open for further replies.
And for those who believe Genesis literally, Adam and Eve and their immediate descendants are generally assumed to have been protected by magic from the nastiness of massive, long-term in-breeding, but that over time (as a result of the fall) that protection has disappeared.

What? Not even close. Where have you heard this?

Do you know why inbreeding is dangerous? If two people are closely related, they have a very high chance of having the same genetic mistakes, being from the same parents. Therefore, if brother and sister have a child, chances are that child can recieve that genetic mistake from both parents, resulting in a deformity. Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were created perfect. The human genetic degeneration didn't begin to occur until after the fall. Even then, it would be a long time before that degeneration would accumulate to the extent that close-relation marriages would become dangerous. Therefore, Adam and Eve and their earlier descendents were safe.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
jesusfreak94 said:
Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were created perfect.
I thought they had children after they ate the apple?

And of course.. saying they were created perfect is still forever dodging the question. It's no different than telling you there's an invisible dragon in my garage. You try to throw a net and catch nothing. I tell you it's smaller than a pea.
 

Sabonea_Masukippa

Well-Known Member
What? Not even close. Where have you heard this?

Do you know why inbreeding is dangerous? If two people are closely related, they have a very high chance of having the same genetic mistakes, being from the same parents. Therefore, if brother and sister have a child, chances are that child can recieve that genetic mistake from both parents, resulting in a deformity. Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were created perfect. The human genetic degeneration didn't begin to occur until after the fall. Even then, it would be a long time before that degeneration would accumulate to the extent that close-relation marriages would become dangerous. Therefore, Adam and Eve and their earlier descendents were safe.

Oh well, that too (although one might dispute whether being created as perfect is fundamentally different from magic protection). I've just heard the explanation I gave more often, I don't know of any large scale studies of Creationist/literalistic believer's opinions on the topic.
 
I thought they had children after they ate the apple?

Yes...and?

And it wasn't an apple...

And of course.. saying they were created perfect is still forever dodging the question. It's no different than telling you there's an invisible dragon in my garage. You try to throw a net and catch nothing. I tell you it's smaller than a pea.

In a biblical context, Adam and Eve were created perfect. Simple genetics easily explains why they were okay to inbreed and their later descendents were not. What question exactly am I dodging?

Oh well, that too (although one might dispute whether being created as perfect is fundamentally different from magic protection). I've just heard the explanation I gave more often, I don't know of any large scale studies of Creationist/literalistic believer's opinions on the topic.

Okay, but I still wonder where you heard that. I'll have to look that up sometime. I don't believe I've ever heard that before.
 

Sabonea_Masukippa

Well-Known Member
In a biblical context, Adam and Eve were created perfect. Simple genetics easily explains why they were okay to inbreed and their later descendents were not. What question exactly am I dodging?

I love to see a 'perfect' human genome. Is it one where the gene for making Vitamin C is still intact? Or one without all the retroviruses humans and chimpanzees share? (And if it is, how do you explain those viruses being in both genomes if they didn't enter until after the fall?)

Okay, but I still wonder where you heard that. I'll have to look that up sometime. I don't believe I've ever heard that before.

Don't worry about, I looked it up and fired off a quick e-mail, seems I was misunderstanding what a few people were saying. You are correct in your perfect human --> fall --> degeneration of human genome until inbreeding is impossible understanding of literalist's claims.
 
Oh, well then you might want to research that a bit more then, because the legitimacy of that translation is in dispute, I believe.
Already have. A lone, atheist, revisionist historian doesn't really create a climate of "dispute." And he's not denying the credibility of the underlying texts--just taking issue with the tone of the translations.

And you're right about one thing: Hitler's views on religion seem cloudy at best.
 
I love to see a 'perfect' human genome. Is it one where the gene for making Vitamin C is still intact? Or one without all the retroviruses humans and chimpanzees share? (And if it is, how do you explain those viruses being in both genomes if they didn't enter until after the fall?)

I guess we'll never know what the perfect human genome would be like. Also, I don't know too much about retroviruses, but I see no reason why they would have to be introduced after the fall. Iirc, retroviruses have been found to have some genetic uses, specifically ERV's (endogenous retroviruses). These have certain processes such as the direct coding of proteins, gene regulation, DNA repair and recombination, transduction, and a resistance to exogenous retroviruses. These were probably created with many beneficial processes, but degenerated after the fall like everything else.

Don't worry about, I looked it up and fired off a quick e-mail, seems I was misunderstanding what a few people were saying. You are correct in your perfect human --> fall --> degeneration of human genome until inbreeding is impossible understanding of literalist's claims.

Ok, I gotcha.

And you're right about one thing: Hitler's views on religion seem cloudy at best.

^This. Hitler mainly claimed to be a Christian in his public speeches (for the approval of the German people), and his private conversations contradicted that. But I doubt he was an absolute atheist either.

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

"For their interests [the Church's] cannot fail to coincide with ours [the National Socialists] alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life".

The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

"I often feel that we will have to undergo all the trials the devil and hell can devise before we achieve Final Victory....I may be no pious churchgoer, but deep within me I am nevertheless a devout man. That is to say, I believe that he who fights valiantly obeying the laws which a god has established and who never capitulates but instead gathers his forces time after time and always pushes forward—such a man will not be abandoned by the Lawgiver. Rather he will ultimately receive the blessing of Providence. And that blessing has been imparted to all great spirits in history."

Inside the Third Reich : Memoirs

These quotes, for example, are not atheistic, but neither are they Christian.
 

AzukanAsimbu

Petal Paladin
What? Not even close. Where have you heard this?

Do you know why inbreeding is dangerous? If two people are closely related, they have a very high chance of having the same genetic mistakes, being from the same parents. Therefore, if brother and sister have a child, chances are that child can recieve that genetic mistake from both parents, resulting in a deformity. Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were created perfect. The human genetic degeneration didn't begin to occur until after the fall. Even then, it would be a long time before that degeneration would accumulate to the extent that close-relation marriages would become dangerous. Therefore, Adam and Eve and their earlier descendents were safe.

if they were SO "perfect" why DID they eat the apple? Because of the "totally believeable" talking snake. If they were so perfect, then they would have resisted the temptation to eat the apple. They ate the apple, thereby showing they werent perfect
 
if they were SO "perfect" why DID they eat the apple? Because of the "totally believeable" talking snake. If they were so perfect, then they would have resisted the temptation to eat the apple. They ate the apple, thereby showing they werent perfect

You're not making a good point here. If Adam and Eve ate the fruit (not apple) on their own accord with no outside influence, then you could assume that they were not perfect. However, even you admit that there was an outside influence of deception: the serpent. Also, notice that the tree was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve had yet to know evil, and as such were easily decieved.

Also, that "talking snake" wasn't just any old snake, but a disguise for the devil. If you keep using childish terms like "talking snake" and "invisible man in the sky", then you can make anything sound rediculous. It's hardly an argument.

And on top of everything, I was talking about genetics...
 

Sabonea_Masukippa

Well-Known Member
if they were SO "perfect" why DID they eat the apple? Because of the "totally believeable" talking snake. If they were so perfect, then they would have resisted the temptation to eat the apple. They ate the apple, thereby showing they werent perfect

Well, genetic perfection wouldn't necessarily exquate to perfect behaviour.

Although it does leave the question of whether an omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful deity would do what Yahweh does in those chapters.
 

AzukanAsimbu

Petal Paladin
You're not making a good point here. If Adam and Eve ate the fruit (not apple) on their own accord with no outside influence, then you could assume that they were not perfect. However, even you admit that there was an outside influence of deception: the serpent. Also, notice that the tree was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve had yet to know evil, and as such were easily decieved.

Also, that "talking snake" wasn't just any old snake, but a disguise for the devil. If you keep using childish terms like "talking snake" and "invisible man in the sky", then you can make anything sound rediculous. It's hardly an argument.

And on top of everything, I was talking about genetics...

yet you yourself said they were perfect. you seem to not grasp the entire definition of perfect. if they indeed were perfect, then they would know evil, and the snake wouldnt have tricked them
 
yet you yourself said they were perfect. you seem to not grasp the entire definition of perfect. if they indeed were perfect, then they would know evil, and the snake wouldnt have tricked them

Perfect(adj)-pure, undiluted, unmixed; excellent and delightful in all respects; being without defect or blemish

Yes, that certainly sounds like something that would be both good and evil. :rolleyes:
 

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
Oh dear, we have a case of misinterpretation.

Maybe, but you didn't get it.

You still didn't explain why a society not based on religion would necessarily and unequivocally become a cesspit of discrimination and all the other bad stuff.
Never did I say society NOT based on religion would be evil, never have I said society based PURELY on religion would be good. Western society's laws, institutions and expectations are the product of Western history; If one does not like them, one can try and impose their views so that the old imposed view is replaced with this new imposed view.


So? Who gives a flying hoot? That's not a reason why religion should be the basis of culture.
See above.


A point I did not make, actually.
I didn't say you did, other posts in this thread imply that religion seems to be the only source of (insert negative trait here).


Well, when you've got a God who calls for stoning, blood sacrifice, and sends wild animals on naughty children it is very easy to find justification for immoral deeds.
"37And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
-- Jesus, in Matthew 22:37-40


Basically, if any laws from the Prophets (who were humans, not Christ) contradict these two supreme commandments, it is null.

So, no stoning or *****-burning.





Just because we've historically chosen/been forced to base Western culture on Religion doesn't necessarily explain why we should continue to do so.
Western society is the most just and democratic in the world for the time being. Yes, there are faults and as old problems fall, new ones will surely replace them. Learning, improving and adapting never stop, it's a constant process. I struggle to see how society could be radically re-drawn to make it significantly more moral, if you or any other person knows the answer, please share.



Well, technically, I'm not asking, the thread is, but semantics are not up for discussion here.

But you just gave the same answer I have numerous times - in a society of multi-faith people, you cannot impose just one religions practices as the accepted norm fairly.
Never did I say we should. I'm all for freedom of religion, even you atheists, but I'm not for a anti-religious, pro-atheist society. Let people make their own damn minds up.

Again, 'horrid' is your word, not mine.
Wow

But if you insist, ideally, society would be based off a mutual respect and understanding of each individual's needs (or at least as many as possible) where each person had relative freedom to live their lives as they chose, within the limits of not causing harm, damage or significant inconvenience to other people.
To me, that sounds like the West as it stands today, sure, things aren't perfect, nor will they ever be. But equality (more or less) is what the West is about.

(And again, if Hitler was not Christian, it still doesn't change that much of Germany was at the time of the war).
And... what? if you're trying to say that because Nazis were German, and many Germans were Christian, that therefore Christianity and /or religion is evil, you are treading a dangerous road of foolishness. If this is not your intent, what was?


I was actually fairly certain that you brought Hitler up in the first place.
Right and wrong, I did use Nazism as an example of irreligious hatred that could, did and does sometimes occur (it was an extreme example, but no less extreme than a Chrisitian being compared to a blood-thirsty Inquisitor), but I never equated Hitler as being religious or atheist, others did that.


Reasoning. Experiences. Things we can actually verify and debate.
People in the West do reason and debate already, try telling people the world is flat and people will laugh at you. If you refer to morality and ideology (neither are objective, which means reasoning will differ from person to person), then what then? It's easy to say 'base all on reasoning', yes that's precisely it when talking about the objective, but what about subjective fields like morality, law and what ideologies are and aren't acceptable?

The difference is that one can influence the masses a hell lot easier. The reason why religion is the most prominent tool in history is mostly because it's the easiest to do and it's the only thing all people, regardless of race, sex, or age, will blindly follow for the sake of divine rewards.

Compared to "social movements" or "for the people", where's the eternal life? While you still create the "us" vs "them" mentality, psychologically, a person is more likely to do crazy **** if they're promised something even after death.

Even today, many people do not believe in following blind authority, yet, I can find probably 50% of the population to tell me homosexuality is evil because of their religion.

I see your point, and I do agree, but you seem to be saying 'religion is more certain to get someone to commit more atrocities. But that's debatable, suicide bombing started with secular militants in Sri Lanka, not muslim militants. Without a single reference to spirituality, the Chinese Communist Party is able to get a population as large and varied as China's to accept or be indifferent to the invasion of Tibet. The Soviets were able to construct a climate where a person could easily report someone else to the police for 'counter-revolutionary behavior', in reality having not a shred of evidence yet knowing that the person they reported would disappear, most likely for good. When a fanatic believe in something , they will even commit extremes for it, whether it's the idea they are helping to build a perfect society or if they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

However, if it could be scientifically proven beyond reasonable doubt, that religion does indeed create more horrible monsters than overtly irreligious ideologies, then perhaps law enforcement authorities and religious authorities would have to obviously adapt to this finding. Assuming there is more to that can be done that isn't undertaken anyway.


And you're right about one thing: Hitler's views on religion seem cloudy at best.
Agreed, it seems hard to guess his personal views on religion. Then again, this a man who had major issues (to put it mildly) with Jews, gypsies, Slavs and non-whites. Trying to know his logic is speculation at best. However, the Nazi Party's view is less complicated, Christian churches had to change into some National Sociality Church or be persecuted, their beliefs had to conform to Nazism or be persecuted. Like any regime, any institute in society would either have to conform or disappear. Given the Nazi Party was racist, it's probably safe to assume their view of religions associated with coloured people would've been dim. And let's not get into the Jewish thing.
Blue Ralts said:
and also, if the first people were Adam and Eve, doesnt it mean weve been inbreeding for thousands and thousands of years?
Might explain everybody seems so stupid nowadays.
lol, I'm thinking of 'sigging' this
 
Last edited:

Sabonea_Masukippa

Well-Known Member
"37And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
-- Jesus, in Matthew 22:37-40


Basically, if any laws from the Prophets (who were humans, not Christ) contradict these two supreme commandments, it is null.

So, no stoning or *****-burning.

The laws and guidelines in Leviticus were given by God to Moses. Regardless of whether Jesus supplanted them later on, God still gave them to Israel to live by.

Also, one could argue that Jesus himself was a blood sacrifice.

And God is said to have sent the bears to kills those youths.

Never did I say we should. I'm all for freedom of religion, even you atheists, but I'm not for a anti-religious, pro-atheist society. Let people make their own damn minds up.

Not something I've argued for, or even seen argued for seriously in this thread.


And... what? if you're trying to say that because Nazis were German, and many Germans were Christian, that therefore Christianity and /or religion is evil, you are treading a dangerous road of foolishness. If this is not your intent, what was?

To counter this continuing facetiousness argument about whether or not Hitler was an atheist or not and whether it has any relevance to this current debate.
 
Last edited:

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Yes...and?

And it wasn't an apple...
So, if they ate the fruit BEFORE they had children, wouldn't that make the children therefore imperfect, and also therefore.. an incest relationship?

In a biblical context, Adam and Eve were created perfect. Simple genetics easily explains why they were okay to inbreed and their later descendents were not. What question exactly am I dodging?
"Simple genetics?" You've found genetics on what perfection is? You've even found evidence that these people existed?

If your idea of simple genetics is using biblical content, then I think you can see where I'll go next.

If your idea of genetics is telling me only when they were imperfect and not when they were perfect, where's the in-depth explanation of perfection genetics?

People in the West do reason and debate already, try telling people the world is flat and people will laugh at you. If you refer to morality and ideology (neither are objective, which means reasoning will differ from person to person), then what then? It's easy to say 'base all on reasoning', yes that's precisely it when talking about the objective, but what about subjective fields like morality, law and what ideologies are and aren't acceptable?
That doesn't mean we give up. An ancient book isn't going to point us in the direction anymore than us intellectually discussing and reflecting with each other. That's what we've done for the past few centuries. If we didn't, we'd still be living in the stone age raping our women and calling blacks monkeys.

Clearly it has been done.

I see your point, and I do agree, but you seem to be saying 'religion is more certain to get someone to commit more atrocities. But that's debatable
Debatable? All you have to do is look at the history of all corruption and how it was done. If we examine the most common factors... they include financial and academic disadvantage, different ethnicity, and God. God has been the excuses for the most major things in history. Sure, you can point out exceptions. I acknowledge them, but when you're talking about the likelihood and the impact, nothing has compared to racism and religion (religion being the tool; racism being the foundation).

 

Profesco

gone gently
Vermehlo said:
If you refer to morality and ideology (neither are objective, which means reasoning will differ from person to person), then what then? It's easy to say 'base all on reasoning', yes that's precisely it when talking about the objective, but what about subjective fields like morality, law and what ideologies are and aren't acceptable?

Law is objective. Or is supposed to be, anyway.

Morality is also objective in the general sense (though tiny, situational specifics differ across cultures). Morality, or at least ethics, is all about reason. The point of having ethics is to act only on valid logical reasoning and nothing else. 'Moral reasons, if they are valid, are binding on all persons at all times' - this is the concept of consistency, a key component of morality clarified by and attributed to Immanuel Kant.

And a final note: the fact that reasoning may differ does not mean that both courses of reasoning are equally correct or equally valid. There are good reasons and bad reasons, like there is logically sound reasoning and logically unsound reasoning.

All other arguments aside for a moment, a society based on religion cannot offer objective morality or objective reasoning. All reasons will be partial to the teaching of that religion. Non-religiously-based societies, though there are most certainly ways in which those could also fail to be objective, at least do offer the possibility of objectivity.
 
Last edited:

Shepard

metaphysician
I thought this looked like an interesting topic, so I thought I might just chime in my own two cents on the original question:

So, why do some people have such a profound hate for religion? I really don't understand it. It helps out culture in many ways, and hurts little. Let's take a look.


The big pros of it are that it instills morals and goodwill and provides mental security/piece of mind, and what exactly are the cons? I often hear the argument that "It's holding us back!" which isn't true at all. I'm a Christian and I'd love to know what is smaller than a Quark and I'd love to colonize on far away planets. That doesn't mean we should stop looking for the secret behind out creation either, we'll never know for sure until we look. Another argument is that it promotes hostility towards other religions, which is a misguided myth. In Christianity, God and Jesus would look at "sinners" (followers of the a different faith or gays) with forgiveness and ideally their followers should too. So faiths have no trouble coexisting in this religion based society.

So tell me, why?

In my opinion, the major 'con' to basing society on religion is that people become too invested in it to the point where they become oblivious to the rights of other people to think differently.

I think it's important to distinguish between "culture" and "society" here as well since religion will always we a part of the former, but does not necessarily need to be a part of the latter. Yes there is some overlap between the two, but when your society is comprised of various groups of people who have sometimes fundamentally different religious views, the need to keep the two separate becomes apparent. I don't think having a Judeo-Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/etc nation simply because the majority of the population are members of that religion is right since it essentially ignores the perspective of people who think differently in favor of that majority.

There's a reason why the revolutions of the Enlightenment were based on the idea of the separation of Church and State - religion is based on belief, not empirical fact, so any society that uses religion as its exemplar for law and governance is placing the doctrine and agenda of that religion above reason.

I think that religion certainly has its place within our culture as it can have benefits for the individual. But like all institutions, organized religions seek power, and power in numbers. They do this by essentially polarizing their followers against people of other faiths and with non-normative lifestyles, and each faith claims to have the market cornered on being the 'correct' one. If religious institutions truly had the good of humanity at heart they would simply adopt a 'live and let live' mentality toward other faiths and let people decide for themselves, but instead their fierce competition has only led to hatred, xenophobia, and even wars.

Faith in a particular religion is much more of an emotional choice than a rational one as well, which is why discussions of religion can become very heated - in calling into question a person's faith you're not just rebutting a point they've made, you're actually calling into question their most fundamental beliefs, shaking their entire world view from its very roots. While I understand this gut reaction, I think that we need to start moving past that, agree to disagree about certain things, and accept one another as being different without passing judgment. And that's what this comes down to: judgment. Religion clouds our judgment when it comes to other faiths because rule number one of every religion is "This is the correct religion." The natural extension of this rule is that every other religion is wrong, which is why religion sparks so much conflict - we essentially tell each other that our entire view on life, the universe, and everything is plain wrong.

I think Chris Rock summarized it best in Dogma: You can change an idea, but it's a lot trickier to change a belief. This is why societies based on religions walk a dangerous path - they are intrinsically motivated by a system of beliefs that resonates to the very core of what is "being." The big trouble starts when there are more than one religious nations with very different views - conflict is almost inevitable because the foundational beliefs on which those respective nations are built are mutually exclusive. The more logical (and peaceful) alternative is to have societies that are based on ideas. This is the separation of Church and State - the separation of emotion from reason. Ideas can generally be contested without offending people too much - they disagree certainly, but all other things being equal most of the time the most reasonable course of action wins out. With religions at the helm, the debate can never just be point for point as individual religions often have mutually exclusive beliefs.
 

Rensch

Well-Known Member
My main concern is that religion is usually based, more or less, on an absolute truth. It holds back certain taboos that may not necessarily need to be taboos.

Sure, there are many good things that religion can teach such as being kind to your neighbours and giving to the poor.

But what if you are in a loving relationship and want to get married, but it so happens to be a homosexual relationship, you've got a problem because the "absolute truth" says it's not okay.

If you want to believe in something that is completely personal, fine, but don't impose it on people who do not share those views. Because I just do not believe in a higher force. Religion is something personal and should thus be kept out of politics.

Instead, focus on practical issues, such as fiscal policy, health care, creating jobs etc.
 

houndourm

a-a-a-awesome
But that would require all government officials to be atheist or even the morals they get from their religion would be imparted on there judgement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top