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Explain to me the cons of basing our culture off religion.

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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
That's because it isn't an easy question to answer. A materialist can, with much bloviating and hand-waving, choose to ignore any evidence that might suggest that design underlies the universe, so I can tell you how you don't go about studying the universe--with your mind made up.

Naturalists conclude that God does not exist because, all too often, that is where they start.

Life's designs do not inspire faith in a designer, you say? It sounds to me as if you've allowed your worldview to cloud your vision.
So, why can't you just answer the question? Show me what you do to come to this conclusion.

I'm open to any type of way you discern what is designed and what it isn't and seeing if is indeed consistent. How is that bias? You're doing the same thing ShinySandshrew did.

"Why should I tell you?"

Edit: And you want to know why it isn't easy to answer? It's pretty obvious why...
 
So, why can't you just answer the question? Show me what you do to come to this conclusion.

I'm open to any type of way you discern what is designed and what it isn't and seeing if is indeed consistent.
There is a point in examining complex life when to maintain that evolutionary mechanism alone is an explanation free of blemish is to commit a sort of intellectual dishonesty. Where do you think that point lies?

“…It's important to keep in mind that it is the profound appearance of design in life that everyone is laboring to explain, not the appearance of natural selection or the appearance of self-organization.”
- Behe
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell, Poke, that is entirely in your imagination. Nothing I have seen in terms of evolution is particularly amazing, unlikely, yes, but then the odds of life existing at all are probably much smaller, and so are the odds of winning the lottery, and yet it happens every day.

You can't claim a cut off point exists if you can't give one, or give reasons why one would exist.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
PokeJustice said:
evolutionary mechanism alone is an explanation free of blemish is to commit a sort of intellectual dishonesty.
Where's the blemish? Not just some unexplainable question or anything but something that would actively conclude that Evolution is false and something else is going on.

Even if Evolution wasn't true, it wouldn't mean anything for supernatural forces. They have to prove their case on their own accord. At least Evolution offers further research and actually answers questions.
 

Crystalmew9

Ultimate Mew Fan
I don't really see any cons. Religion is supposed to be a way for all of us humans to live in peace and treat each other as equals--and, this is why the U.S. is involved in a war with terrorists, because NOT EVERYONE FOLLOWS THE SAME RELIGION.

That's the only con--how we're all different.

Though, imo, it doesn't matter what religion you are; I just wish we could all get along like the Bible says we should. I mean, if we all (pardon me, MOST of us) believe in a higher power, why does it matter how we believe in Him (or Her, in the case of some religions)? We should all just get along, already!
 
You can't claim a cut off point exists if you can't give one, or give reasons why one would exist.
It exists, obviously, because the plasticity of the genome is not infinite. I do not know where it lies.

GhostAnime: I do not mean to demonstrate that evolution is false. I am an evolutionist and have no problems with common descent.

How is an unexplainable question not a blemish?
 
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Byzantine

Well-Known Member
And that, Crystal, is the point. basing a culture off Religion doesn't help, it just increases areas of conflict with other Religions. For some reason people have an inborn desire to distinguish one group from another (despite nearly all differences being inconsequential).

The Bible says we should get along in some parts, and in others it is a call to war, the same is true of nearly all religious texts, its best to not base a society off of it because if you do people are bound to fixate on the bad, as they have an unfortunate tendency to.

And the U.S. war with terrorists really isn't about religion, the terrorists simply don't like the US and religion is a way to justify their actions, its the same way some Christians use the bible to justify murdering a doctor who performs abortions (despite the fact that murder of any kind is supposed to be bad, including the murder of that doctor).

It exists, obviously, because the plasticity of the genome is not infinite. I do not know where it lies.

GhostAnime: I do not mean to demonstrate that evolution is false. I am an evolutionist and have no problems with common descent. How is an unexplainable question not a blemish? That's the definition of a blemish.

And why is that a blemish? The genome isn't supposed to take constant stress, if it does it will break down, but that is a fundamental rule that governs DNA as a molecule. Just because the building blocks are flawed doesn't mean the process itself has a flaw in it (You can create a building perfectly with the materials you are given, it falling over is a matter of the materials, not the building itself).
 
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Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
I personally hope there is not a God, simply because something that cruel terrifies me more than I can believe. (and any "God" that made this world and let it go on the way it does is very cruel indeed, I don't care how much you argue a greater good, how can there be a greater good than saving countless people and animals from horrible fates across the world every day?)
God gave humans free will, it's not his fault if someone kills another. You make a choice all the time and your actions have reactions.

But hey, see it how you wish.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
God gave humans free will, it's not his fault if someone kills another. You make a choice all the time and your actions have reactions.

But hey, see it how you wish.

Yes, it is. If he gave us free will (which I personally don't believe is possible, it is a paradox when combined with him creating the world and knowing everything) then he should have know we would go and do something stupid with it and figured out a way to get us to prevent ourselves from doing so.

Besides, anything stupid enough to create free will and then leave everything running as it will is asking for something to go horribly wrong, free will may apparently be good, but it has its own great faults, including if it can even exist to begin with.

Truthfully I can excuse him letting one person kill another, but letting one group of people slaughter another group of people for no real reason? That destroys the free will of far more people than it protects, so why is that it is allowed to happen anyway?
 

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
Yes, it is. If he gave us free will (which I personally don't believe is possible, it is a paradox when combined with him creating the world and knowing everything) then he should have know we would go and do something stupid with it and figured out a way to get us to prevent ourselves from doing so.
How is it a paradox? what could be more lulzy than creating an intelligent species with a lack of centralized control and seeing what they do. Just because God knows all dosn't mean he'd want to rule over a mass of drones.
Besides, anything stupid enough to create free will and then leave everything running as it will is asking for something to go horribly wrong, free will may apparently be good, but it has its own great faults, including if it can even exist to begin with.
Humans can't reach God (in life), he's nothing to fear from us. If free will exists, it is our will because we are imbued with that will, if free will dosn't exist, everything is predetermined, and obviously something inhuman is directing all for reasons unknown to us, what ever it is.
Truthfully I can excuse him letting one person kill another,
How generous of you.
...but letting one group of people slaughter another group of people for no real reason?
No group kills for no reason, everyone has a reason, you just may not agree with it, but to them it makes perfect sense.

That destroys the free will of far more people than it protects, so why is that it is allowed to happen anyway?
Because God dosn't intervene in our affairs, when was the last time you saw a smiting? People will be judged in the afterlife, if you're atheist you've nothing to fear.
 

pokeaussie37

Well-Known Member
The problem with basing our culture off religion?
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, incites more conflict in the world than religion.

The only things that have come even close over the last two thousand years, are politics, and only *relatively* recently, resources.
 
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And why is that a blemish? The genome isn't supposed to take constant stress, if it does it will break down, but that is a fundamental rule that governs DNA as a molecule. Just because the building blocks are flawed doesn't mean the process itself has a flaw in it (You can create a building perfectly with the materials you are given, it falling over is a matter of the materials, not the building itself).
I do not mean to argue that the process is inherently flawed. It is, however, no substitute for intelligence.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
PokeJustice said:
How is an unexplainable question not a blemish?
Because potentially everything could have an unexplainable question depending on how you ask the question, but there is still a significant difference in the questions they answer and what they have verified.

Steele said:
How is it a paradox? what could be more lulzy than creating an intelligent species with a lack of centralized control and seeing what they do. Just because God knows all dosn't mean he'd want to rule over a mass of drones.
It's a paradox because if he's all-knowing, then he knows what everybody is going to be like before he even creates them. Since he isn't wrong, what he knows is set in stone before it even happens.

Because God dosn't intervene in our affairs, when was the last time you saw a smiting?
But why wouldn't he if you think about it? A parent wouldn't just let his kids kill each other and punish the bad ones later.

Heck, it isn't even just human affairs. You have natural disasters and sickness as well.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Because potentially everything could have an unexplainable question depending on how you ask the question, but there is still a significant difference in the questions they answer and what they have verified.
Ok but at least they have some verification. what verification do you have in god


It's a paradox because if he's all-knowing, then he knows what everybody is going to be like before he even creates them. Since he isn't wrong, what he knows is set in stone before it even happens.
Ah then god has no free will. But why wouldn't he if you think about it? A parent wouldn't just let his kids kill each other and punish the bad ones later.

If you equate god to a parent then he wouldn't let any of his kids kill each other. I don't let my son hurt his sister yet I also don't stop there free will


Heck, it isn't even just human affairs. You have natural disasters and sickness as well.

The irony is if you equate god to a father most humans do a way beter job.
 
Yes, it is. If he gave us free will (which I personally don't believe is possible, it is a paradox when combined with him creating the world and knowing everything,)...
Not everyone believes in the exhaustive foreknowledge of God. God might know everything that can be known, but it is not possible to know the future with any semblance of certainty without the predeterminism of which you speak.
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
Not everyone believes in the exhaustive foreknowledge of God. God might know everything that can be known, but it is not possible to know the future with any semblance of certainty without the predeterminism of which you speak.

Surely if you know everything that is possible to be known in the present, from the most insignificant chemical reaction to the hugest supernova, wouldn't you be able to determine the future? It's not like we humans don't attempt to predict the future, and it not like we balls it up a lot either. When we do go wrong, its because theres something we didn't consider. If we knew everything possible...

Thus, my reasoning as to why God isn't real. But I'll save the intricacies of that tale for another day ;)
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
Everything can be predicted, the amount of knowledge required to do so is enormous, far beyond what a human being can imagine, but since God is apparently all-knowing, and thus has all of this knowledge, he would have been able to know exactly what the world he was making was going to end up as, its entire history, all determined from that initial set up. Everything is a chain of reactions, if He created the first of them and was all-knowing he is capable of understanding exactly how each subtle difference in the start would affect the world, and thus presumably be able to change how he chose to start the world to fit what he wanted.

This makes free will a fallacy because if he knew everything that was going to happen, and presumably chose to make the world in such a way that events go exactly this way he chose all of our actions for us in the very act of making the world. It isn't a question of God wanting to limit our free will, it is a simple inability on his part to NOT do so, by his apparent nature.

(This is a concept that I have a very hard time explaining that makes perfect sense to me intuitively, so sorry if it is wordy).
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Not everyone believes in the exhaustive foreknowledge of God. God might know everything that can be known, but it is not possible to know the future with any semblance of certainty without the predeterminism of which you speak.
Yeah, I know many people debate the definition of knowledge. Surely it's possible for a god to only know the material world.

But as far as the Biblical god goes, they really do stress the fact that God is invincible. There are even some stories and passages that have him predict/know the future.

Let's assume for argument's sake that the Biblical god can't necessarily "see" the future in his head; he can still use the knowledge he possesses of the person to know what they will turn into. Think of it as some kind of awesome psychoanalysis. Let's say you're about to create a person. You know his parent's income level, you know where they live, you know how they would raise their children, and you definitely know what his exposure will be. That's only going by the knowledge we possess to predict how a person could possibly live. Think of the knowledge God may have on genetics and the surrounding area. He could easily predict the future of someone even just using the present.
 
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Where's the blemish? Not just some unexplainable question or anything but something that would actively conclude that Evolution is false and something else is going on.
Remember when I asked for the positive evidence of creatures actually evolving from asexually-reproducing, single-celled organisms to multicellular, sexually-reproducing organisms? Remember when Tim the turtle acted like the issue was trivial?


EDIT:
Are you talking about prokaryotes to eukaryotes?
No. I made my meaning clear, especially since I used the word "multicellular" above.
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Are you talking about prokaryotes to eukaryotes?
 
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