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Explain to me the cons of basing our culture off religion.

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ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Remember when I asked for the positive evidence of creatures actually evolving from asexually-reproducing, single-celled organisms to multicellular, sexually-reproducing organisms? Remember when Tim the turtle acted like the issue was trivial?

Ah but multicellular asexual to Multicellular sexual creaters are still alive today to provide exidence to a comon ancestor. The sponge can create more sponges by budding but also can send pylops to other sponges to create new sponges. Also earthworms are hermaphriditic and can reproduce with either a male or female organ.
 
Yeah, I know many people debate the definition of knowledge. Surely it's possible for a god to only know the material world.

But as far as the Biblical god goes, they really do stress the fact that God is invincible. There are even some stories and passages that have him predict/know the future.
I don't care about the God of the Bible. What the Bible has to say matters not an ounce to me. I am merely arguing what some do, that is, that God knows the future precisely as it exists--as a set of possibilities. Whether God is next to certain of an outcome in advance or isn't is irrelevant. The point is that these outcomes exist in the mind of God as they do at ground level, that is, they are uncertainties. We retain the ability to make choices, choices that mold the future rather than follow a script.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
I don't care about the God of the Bible. What the Bible has to say matters not an ounce to me. I am merely arguing what some do, that is, that God knows the future precisely as it exists--as a set of possibilities. Whether God is next to certain of an outcome in advance or isn't is irrelevant. The point is that these outcomes exist in the mind of God as they do at ground level, that is, they are uncertainties. We retain the ability to make choices, choices that mold the future rather than follow a script.

Except they aren't. Someone who knows every force and relevant distance on a coin the moment it is flipped will ALWAYS be able to determine what side it lands on.

It is a simple matter to assume if God knows everything in the here and now he can determine everything that will happen later, in fact he will know the entire chain events, down to the very movement of electrons, that are involved. Despite the seeming "randomness" in things NOTHING is random, not even someone spontaneously deciding to do something, the triggers were there and capable of being known by something that knows everything in the present long before they ever happened.

People naturally don't understand just how much knowledge "all-knowing" is because people operate from a very limited perspective, but "God" isn't operating from our limited perspective, he knows every rule of the game, and the exact location of every piece, and exactly how the dice will land, and how all of the players thing, and thus he knows every single play that will be made in the entire game from before the board is even laid out.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Except they aren't. Someone who knows every force and relevant distance on a coin the moment it is flipped will ALWAYS be able to determine what side it lands on.

It is a simple matter to assume if God knows everything in the here and now he can determine everything that will happen later, in fact he will know the entire chain events, down to the very movement of electrons, that are involved. Despite the seeming "randomness" in things NOTHING is random, not even someone spontaneously deciding to do something, the triggers were there and capable of being known by something that knows everything in the present long before they ever happened.

People naturally don't understand just how much knowledge "all-knowing" is because people operate from a very limited perspective, but "God" isn't operating from our limited perspective, he knows every rule of the game, and the exact location of every piece, and exactly how the dice will land, and how all of the players thing, and thus he knows every single play that will be made in the entire game from before the board is even laid out.

Actualy if you knew the exact location of every electron in the universe you could not know its speed and direction (First rule of quantum phisics) Second Quantum physics is completly random, electrons are energy or mater depending if you are looking, information can travel faster then light and enegy has no mass while mater does.
 
I dont think soceity being based off of religion is a bad thing until religion starts to over step the bounds. Im a christian, and I believe the bible, but ive got no right to around judging and forcing people to live by it. Gay marriage is a touchy subject for many christians, and honestly, I think were being stupid about it. Why do so many have the compulsion to force non-christians to live by the Bible? Is banning gay marriage going to make gays disappear? No, it just makes them angry and resentful towards christians. And why shouldnt it? Would it not be wrong for Muslims to force their dress code on everyone, including non muslims? We are christians, so we need to live by the Bible, and we shouldnt expect non christians to do the same. I dont see Jesus forcing anyone to follow him in the gospel. What gives us the right? So thats a major con right now, but honestly, the Bible doesnt condone the actions of many christians regarding this issue. Two men or women getting married isnt hurting me or you or anyone else for that matter. Sometimes I feel like christians care more about this than abortion.

I think the pros of religion is the strong teachings of human decency in many religions. We should love, even when we dont want to, and treat people the way we want to be treated. Its pretty simple.
 

Snipehsheep

Scottish American
I dont think soceity being based off of religion is a bad thing until religion starts to over step the bounds. Im a christian, and I believe the bible, but ive got no right to around judging and forcing people to live by it. Gay marriage is a touchy subject for many christians, and honestly, I think were being stupid about it. Why do so many have the compulsion to force non-christians to live by the Bible? Is banning gay marriage going to make gays disappear? No, it just makes them angry and resentful towards christians. And why shouldnt it? Would it not be wrong for Muslims to force their dress code on everyone, including non muslims? We are christians, so we need to live by the Bible, and we shouldnt expect non christians to do the same. I dont see Jesus forcing anyone to follow him in the gospel. What gives us the right? So thats a major con right now, but honestly, the Bible doesnt condone the actions of many christians regarding this issue. Two men or women getting married isnt hurting me or you or anyone else for that matter. Sometimes I feel like christians care more about this than abortion.

I think the pros of religion is the strong teachings of human decency in many religions. We should love, even when we dont want to, and treat people the way we want to be treated. Its pretty simple.

Because 95% of the world, no matter their beliefs, are idiots. Sad but true.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
Actualy if you knew the exact location of every electron in the universe you could not know its speed and direction (First rule of quantum phisics) Second Quantum physics is completly random, electrons are energy or mater depending if you are looking, information can travel faster then light and enegy has no mass while mater does.

That is a human limitation caused by our need to use instruments to find one or the other (to find one we have to influence the other and thus change the result). God would simply know. It appears completely random, it is highly unlikely that that is in fact the case, we just can't see the pattern (most likely because it is more complex than we could hope to imagine).
 
Byzantine: assume that there is a god possessing the ability to inductively predict every outcome with perfect accuracy. Do you not, in this scenario, retain the ability to make any choice available? This god might have been almost sure of what it is that you would do, but you could've done otherwise.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Byzantine: assume that there is a god possessing the ability to inductively predict every outcome with perfect accuracy. Do you not, in this scenario, retain the ability to make any choice available? This god might have been almost sure of what it is that you would do, but you could've done otherwise.

Ah but if a god is omnipresent then he exist outside of time and saw the future. This god would know every step you ever would take. and there would be nothing you could do
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
@ Poke, No, because he would have had this knowledge when he created the world, and thus by choosing to make the world the way he did he chose every action we were ever going to make.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
He made the universe according to you didn't he? Then he made EVERY decision for me, and for you, and for everyone else.

or can you explain a way for him to have that knowledge without knowing what the results of his labor would be?
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Because 95% of the world, no matter their beliefs, are idiots. Sad but true.
Depending on your definition of an idiot, if 95% were idiots, I don't know if we would have even gotten this far..

I don't care about the God of the Bible. What the Bible has to say matters not an ounce to me. I am merely arguing what some do, that is, that God knows the future precisely as it exists--as a set of possibilities. Whether God is next to certain of an outcome in advance or isn't is irrelevant. The point is that these outcomes exist in the mind of God as they do at ground level, that is, they are uncertainties. We retain the ability to make choices, choices that mold the future rather than follow a script.
What about my example that presents a god that doesn't know the future, but knows all the present facts?
 
You both clearly entirely misunderstand the matter. God being able to anticipate your actions doesn't imply that God is behind them. You have absolute freedom of will: the choices you will encounter have been to you disposed. The onus of proof rests on you to demonstrate that it is reasonable to hold responsible the Deity for the choices made by people whose choices were theirs to make.
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
No, but he has the ability to do something about it, right? Before you even know you're going to make the wrong move, he could quite easily go "Thats a bad idea". Especially if your bad move affects someone innocent in a negative way.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
PokeJustice said:
God being able to anticipate your actions doesn't imply that God is behind them. You have absolute freedom of will: the choices you will encounter have been to you disposed.
But what if he knows enough to understand what choices you would take based on your upbringing?

And if you believe in a god that directly creates us (or knew we would come into existence at least), you have to admit that some amount of free will at least drops to what it could have potentially been.
 

Tim the turtle

Happy Mudkip
I think the question hinges on whether or not we posit a deterministic universe. If we do, then God most certainly would have knowledge of your future even before he created you, which does seem to suggest that he set up the universe with your fate already in mind. Predestination was a strong part of reformist Christianity, especially Calvinism.

I think in an indeterminstic universe it is possible for a god, even an omniscient one, to allow for free will. It just depends on whether one's actions are dependent of god's knowledge, or whether god's knowledge is dependent on one's actions. I would think the latter is more likely.
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
But logic dictates it is deterministic. This all links to the abiogenesis thread. Molecules do not decide one day to come together and make amino acids of their own free will. It just happens.
All the chemical reactions, the movements of electrons, the very strings that make up every little sub-atomic particle all do the things they do in the present because of how they were affected in the past. There is no conscious involvement. The atoms, electrons, protons, all the bits and bobs that make up your body are no different. Evolution was predetermined. Your thoughts are predetermined. Your future actions, too, are predetermined.

Life is not exempt from the laws of physics.
 
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