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Extraterrestrial Life

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Ethan

Banned
Actually mathematics would come in real handy here. We can use some form of anthropic principle to calculate the odds of life forming (keep in mind that the correct conditions alone do not make life) then calculate the expected size of the universe, estimate the possible earth like planets that may exist, then calculate how many of those planets actually harbor(we cannot measure this so simply deduct a generous percentage.) then compare both numbers. THEN you will know whether it is likely or not that life exists outside our realm of existence. Assumptions are meaningless. Now I'm sure there is someone here thats savy enough in mathematical skill to provide us with that sort of data.


EDIT: I would be nice and provide a link on the probablity of life forming but the only sites I can find are damn creationist sites with biased numbers or angry atheist sites that are soley devoted for debunking creationist claims. Ugh. I can't seem to find a nuetral site on anthropic principle:(
 
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The_Panda

恭喜發財
EDIT: I would be nice and provide a link on the probablity of life forming but the only sites I can find are damn creationist sites with biased numbers or angry atheist sites that are soley devoted for debunking creationist claims. Ugh. I can't seem to find a nuetral site on anthropic principle

Lol I know. The anthropic principle is actually supposed to be part of an argument AGAINST invoking God, why some creationists think it's an argument FOR invoking God I don't really know. It's insidiously hard to find sources on many topics that have the *slightest relevance* to the evolution vs creationism "debate".

Actually mathematics would come in real handy here. We can use some form of anthropic principle to calculate the odds of life forming (keep in mind that the correct conditions alone do not make life) then calculate the expected size of the universe, estimate the possible earth like planets that may exist, then calculate how many of those planets actually harbor(we cannot measure this so simply deduct a generous percentage.) then compare both numbers. THEN you will know whether it is likely or not that life exists outside our realm of existence. Assumptions are meaningless. Now I'm sure there is someone here thats savy enough in mathematical skill to provide us with that sort of data.

Which is what I was trying to do with the conditions of life. Let's try do it. MistyLover, your conditions were rather vague... I'll try make a list as well.

1. Life as we know it requires water, carbon and nitrogen. This is a given, non?
2. For any sort of abiogenesis to occur, there must be significantly low oxygen levels.
3. Life can only exist within a certain temperature range. This would be determined by the distance from the star, the "Goldilocks" zone - not too hot, not too cold.
4. Some sort of protection layer would be required to keep temperature more constant and block out ultraviolet radiation.
5. The planet would require enough gravity as to sustain an atmosphere, but not too much as to compress life.
6. The planet's axis must not be too tilted, as to allow for extreme temperature variation.

There are six things.

On the anthropic principle, I'll put it out first. The anthropic principle goes as follows, "for us to be able to observe a particular universe, that universe must meet the conditions under which we can observe it". It basically states that for us to be able to observe a universe, it must be able to support intelligent life. When we apply this to our universe, the application of the anthropic principle can be used along with given conditions to show the probability of the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

I firmly believe that there must be life elsewhere in the universe, but the odds of extra-terrestrial life being anywhere near as advanced as humans are miniscule, never mind contact being established. Also, the idea of these alien life forms resembling terrestrial organisms in any way besides perhaps micro-organisms or "organic slime" is somewhat narrow-minded.

Why *must* there be extra-terrestrial life? There's a difference between *extremely likely* and *must*.
 
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Since there are at the very least trillions of planets in the universe, the minimal chance of not having life else where is: 0.0000000000001% (That is the very least).

Have you guys heard of the "Wow!" signal in 1977?
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
It was the strongest-ever unidentified transmission. It was never seen again.

Yes. Unidentified transmission. I love it how some people confuse "unidentified" with "alien".

Since there are at the very least trillions of planets in the universe, the minimal chance of not having life else where is: 0.0000000000001% (That is the very least).

And what hat did you pull that out of?
 
Yes. Unidentified transmission. I love it how some people confuse "unidentified" with "alien".



And what hat did you pull that out of?

My grandmother's. Why?

It doesn't matter if it was unidentified, it didn't come from Earth, that's for sure.
 

sam4.1

Ultimate Metal Fan!!
Why *must* there be extra-terrestrial life? There's a difference between *extremely likely* and *must*.
O.K., my bad. I'll concede that without proof, it won't really stand and that that post was badly worded. I posted it pretty late at night, I was too tired to think straight. I just think that it's not a completely ridiculous idea, and that there is a lot of universe out there that we have no idea about. Apologies again for not thinking it through, I'll drink coffee if I'm posting late again!
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
O.K., my bad. I'll concede that without proof, it won't really stand and that that post was badly worded. I posted it pretty late at night, I was too tired to think straight. I just think that it's not a completely ridiculous idea, and that there is a lot of universe out there that we have no idea about. Apologies again for not thinking it through, I'll drink coffee if I'm posting late again!

:p. I shouldn't be too picky on wording, seeing that words such as *must* have very different connotations and uses between common speech and logical language.

ML said:
it didn't come from Earth, that's for sure.

Why are you *sure* that it didn't come from Earth?
 

Stone_Cutter

Well-Known Member
Have you guys heard of the "Wow!" signal in 1977?

A radio signal, such as the Wow! signal, is just a modulated radio wave, and almost everuthing emits radio waves; humans emit radio waves, the earth emits radio waves, the sun emits radio waves, even the milky way galaxy emits radio waves.

It's not unlikely, it's IMPOSSIBLE. I don't even know how the thought of us being the only thing in the infinite universe entered your head.

The Universe is not infinite, just very huge.
 

Death dealer

Pavane of Slaanesh
On the anthropic principle, I'll put it out first. The anthropic principle goes as follows, "for us to be able to observe a particular universe, that universe must meet the conditions under which we can observe it". It basically states that for us to be able to observe a universe, it must be able to support intelligent life. When we apply this to our universe, the application of the anthropic principle can be used along with given conditions to show the probability of the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

I am not happy with the way you say that a universe that has almost exactly the same natural laws as ours ie. it can be observed, but thta cannot produce life.
Obviously, for us to enter and observe it, it would have to have the natural laws to support life, but the kind of universe I mentioned above is not impossible in itself, or am I wrong?

-EDIT- I truly believe that the question is basically unanswerable by it's very nature, our limited understandings not being able to outright deny such a universe at all.
 
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nubinator

Banned
All of MistyLover's posts don't come from facts, she just says whatever the hell she wants and that's not exactly helping her... reputation.

So just because you want something to be real doesn't mean it is.

Anyways, I've seen reports and what not and I don't 'believe' in aliens
 

Conquistador

Vive la Revolution!
Why are you *sure* that it didn't come from Earth?

Exactly what I was thinking. In fact, the very man working for SETI who detected the signal has expressed his doubts that it came from any intelligent life, and states that it much more seems like a signal from Earth that simply got reflected of something in space, debris or something similar.
 
All of MistyLover's posts don't come from facts, she just says whatever the hell she wants and that's not exactly helping her... reputation.

So just because you want something to be real doesn't mean it is.

Anyways, I've seen reports and what not and I don't 'believe' in aliens

So out of the hexillion planets (maybe even more) you still believe that there isn't any life?

I'm a guy, nubinator.
 

Conquistador

Vive la Revolution!
Actually it's "sextillion" not hexillion :)


He said aliens, and in my opinion there is major difference in these two questions;
"Do you believe in aliens?"

"Do you believe there is life somewhere else in this universe?"


By what nubinator said, and certainly by what heaps of people say when asked about aliens, a lot of them mean, "no I do not believe in little green men who prod with probes and abduct you onto UFOs etc..."
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
The problem with a lot of the "evidence" for intelligent life is that it's an argument from ignorance. For example, if there is an unidentified signal, people assume it's from aliens.
 

Conquistador

Vive la Revolution!
The problem with a lot of the "evidence" for intelligent life is that it's an argument from ignorance. For example, if there is an unidentified signal, people assume it's from aliens.

Because people are blinded by the fact they want something really interesting and fantastic (using the actual intended meaning of fantastic there) so they are unable to see things rationally.

Reminds me of religion and death really, lol.
 

Death dealer

Pavane of Slaanesh
So out of the hexillion planets (maybe even more) you still believe that there isn't any life?

I'm a guy, nubinator.

MistyLover, I am trying not to get irritated at your supposedly deliberate straw man impressions of other people's arguments. Not believing in aliens because of a lack of evidence is not the same thing as saying that aliens could not possibly exist. Even if there is a good chance of them existing, there is no reason to positively accept their existence, that would need hard evidence.
 
I believe there is extaterrestrial life, personally. My theory is quite simple to me. Look at our solar system alone. Already, we've had very strong evidence that there once was water on Mars, which is one of the most important building blocks of life. I believe the moon Titan was said to have many of the essential building blocks of life as well. Counting Earth, three different celestial bodies have had evidence of (or have) signs of potential life. There are most definetely seventy solar systems in our galaxy alone. If we use approximate numbers, possibly up to 210 celestial bodies have/had some of the building blocks of life, and even possibly have life. Having possibly around 200 celestial bodies per galaxy times the trillions+ of galaxies in the universe leaves an almost infinite number of celestial bodies with possible building blocks of life. I highly doubt that we're the only celestial body in the universe with the number of building blocks needed to create life.
 
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