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February 9th: PM2019 012: Daimax Battle! Dande, The Greatest of Them All!!

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Zoruagible

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Pokegirl Fan~ said:
Ash could still say something stupid about meeting Lance the first time or forget who Lance even is, sadly.
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Merely having red Gyarados is enough for me.
My issue with Steven was that not only did they not bring up the previous meeting, but Aggron didn't appear the entire saga!
 
Ignition

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
BabaVanga said:
Lance is just E4 member?
Trace incoming :cool:
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The thought of a Trainer who uses a OP Pikachu/Eevee to mirror Ash in terms of being a Champion and having plot armor sounds like something the anime would do lol
 
Leonhart

Leonhart

Imagineer
Don't particularly like that Wataru's just a Four Heavenly Kings member in the anime. Him being a Champion facing Dande here would've been more interesting, because then Dande would be battling someone who would be at his level. But him battling a Four Heavenly Kings member just makes the battle's result even more predictable than before.
 
Lunanight

Lunanight

Well-Known Member
I don't know why people though Lance was the Kanto/Johto Champion in the anime. I didn't see the subbed version of the episodes Lance was in for Johto/Hoenn, but I remember in the dub that Lance was specifically called "one of the Elite Four" by Brock (who IIRC was explaining to May/Max who Lance even was).
  • In the Gen 1 games, the Indigo Elite Four was Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, Lance, and Blue
  • In the Gen 2 games, Lance is the Indigo League Champion
  • GSC takes place 3 years after the events of RBY
  • In the anime, Agatha was still an E4 member when she appeared at the end of AG
  • Therefore it stands to reason that Lance would still be an E4 member in the anime.
Now in the anime, we know they are using the Gen 1 E4 since it was Lorelei, Bruno, and Agatha. We haven't even seen Will and Karen yet, and Koga is still only a gym leader (knowing my luck, I wouldn't be surprised if Koga was an E4 member the next time he appears—I also said the writers wouldn't let Ash catch Dragonite because its fully evolved and Ash only caught 4 Pokemon who weren't in their basic stage).

Even back in OS/AG, if I remember right, Lance was merely just an Elite Four member, albeit implied to be the strongest based on hype. This suggests that the Indigo League might not even have a proper champion, just like how there was no Indigo League champion prior to Blue defeating Lance. So if nobody who won the Indigo Conference or Silver Conference had ever beaten Lance, and there is no official Indigo League Champion, then Lance would basically still be a champion in all but name.

Granted, the anime has taken its share of liberties at times when it comes to chronology. For example in the anime, the Johto Magnet Train needing a year to be completed; Ash was 10 years old at this point. At some unknown time between the end of OS and the end of BW, the Magnet Train is completed, yet Ash is somehow still 10 years old. I personally ignore this inconsistency, but it shows time can be bent to suit the plot. I know stuff in OS was dub-only regarding the passage of time (i.e. the dub-only thing about one year passing since Ash met Pikachu), but I'm sure the Magnet Train thing was in the original too.

Personally, it would make no sense for Lance to even be the Indigo League Champion but the anime has shown it doesn't abide by the timeline of the games. Especially since in AG, its implied that Steven was the Champion as he was in Ruby and Sapphire, then stepped down at some point in BF/DP like he did in Emerald... only to win his way back up to being a champion at some point in BW/XY (like with ORAS).

IMO, the best solution is that they could simply have the Indigo League E4 be the Gen 1 E4 members, and simply have Lance be an E4 member who is on-par with the other Champions. They could just handwave it as Lance never losing to the Indigo/Silver Conference winners, and thus there isn't a official "Kanto/Johto Champion" title. Alternatively they could just have the E4 be Will/Karen (1), Lorelei (2), Bruno (3), and Agatha (4) with Lance as the Champion. That way Lance could be promoted to Champion without having to remove Lorelei and Agatha, and also maintains Koga as the Fuchsia City gym leader.
 
D

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Dephender said:
He was called "the Champion of the Elite Four".

The idea that there's all these multiple champions and Elite Fours all over the world wasn't a thing back then. There was one Elite Four and one Champion.
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So we're going to ignore that in the games for Kanto we had Bruno, Agatha, Lorelei, Lance

And in the Johto we had Karen, Will, Koga, Bruno, and Lance.

And that Lance only appeared in the 2nd generation anime, where he caught red Gyarados (which was a 2nd generation concept).

And there's only ONE Elite Four and Champion? (maybe at the time)

I do understand 2nd generation is a sequel, but it still ultimately is weird, given that Agatha did show up in 3rd generation as an Elite Four, and while we've never seen Will or Karen, they theoretically should exist.

Since it causes a very strange timeline contradiction. If we count 2nd generation as a sequel, then I highly doubt Ash could've reasonably been able to battle Bugsy, since I doubt Bugsy would've been a gym leader let alone Lance being the champion, since reasonably he could've only been an Elite Four member. Are we really to assume that somehow the anime had a mix of the two when Lance showed up despite not being clear?

Sure the anime takes liberties, but that's kind of the issue here. Why wouldn't Lance be NOW seen as the Johto league champion, why only an Elite Four Member? Are we supposed to reasonably believe that Kanto and Johto really DO NOT have separate Elite Four and Champion (at this period of time).

Why can't the writers/producers be more consistent? Like why did they separate the gym badges from the Elite Four Challenge? Like I'm not saying an extra step wouldn't have been nice, but honestly at this point, I think the writers of the anime just keep digging a hole.

The anime style tournament was a nice step, a nice in between the badges and the elite four. I have NO IDEA why the hell they decided to separate the badges from the Elite Four and made some convoluted BS about what the Elite Four and Champions are and honestly at this point, I personally think its biting them in their ass.

As well as not creating an obvious need to separate the Johto and Kanto regions.

Lunanight said:
They could just handwave it as Lance never losing to the Indigo/Silver Conference winners, and thus there isn't a official "Kanto/Johto Champion" title.
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I was explicitly told by people who speak Japanese, that the badges and the anime tournament are completely separate from the Elite Four/Champion for whatever stupid reason.

Because that was always my argument

- Get 8 badges
- Win the 8 badge tournament
- Challenge Elite Four & Champion
- If you win (like the games) you become Champion

NOPE, that's not how it works in the anime at all apparently. Apparently the producers/writers decided to crap on that idea by created some convoluted BS that only makes sense to them. Apparently. I don't know at this point.

Leonhart said:
Don't particularly like that Wataru's just a Four Heavenly Kings member in the anime. Him being a Champion facing Dande here would've been more interesting, because then Dande would be battling someone who would be at his level. But him battling a Four Heavenly Kings member just makes the battle's result even more predictable than before.
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I agree, but honestly I don't think the producers/writers know what the hell they're doing, so to them maybe Lance (E4 level) is supposed to be on par to Champion Leon and the argument is simply Leon is only undefeated because he only ever battled weaker opponents, because no one strong enough ever battled him.
 
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Kazuniya

Kazuniya

read/watch dungeon meshi
The initial summary says that Lance is the winner of the E4 cup, so I assume he has defeated the E4 at some point which surely puts him on the same level as Leon.
 
D

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
Kazuniya said:
The initial summary says that Lance is the winner of the E4 cup, so I assume he has defeated the E4 at some point which surely puts him on the same level as Leon.
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You do have a point, in that we have to actually wait until the actual episode, to understand what's going on. This could simply be people just not understanding what's being said or being told (aka the magazine is making a misunderstanding or even the initial summary makers).

We won't know what is actually going on until we have the actual episode airing.
 
Kein

Kein

AKA Silktree
TheWanderingMist said:
He easily could have lost the title in the time in between. Champion isn't something you are for life.
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And yet he's the one representing Kanto in the World Championships. And despite all the jokes about Trace and Jon Dickson, who could have believably usurped him?

Leonhart said:
Don't particularly like that Wataru's just a Four Heavenly Kings member in the anime. Him being a Champion facing Dande here would've been more interesting, because then Dande would be battling someone who would be at his level. But him battling a Four Heavenly Kings member just makes the battle's result even more predictable than before.
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Again, Leon isn't being called a Champion, either. I'd take these summaries with a grain of salt, but they're at the same level regardless (and yes, the outcome is predictable anyway because they're promoting a giant Charizard).
 
TheWanderingMist

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
S

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Dragalge said:
I thought it was the three silhouetted people who won the Indigo League.
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No, the three silhouetted people who won the Indigo League were never named. John Dickson is the name of the character of the day that won the Johto League beating Harrison because of the fact that Harrison wasn't able to use his Blaziken do to it being to injured from it's previous match against Ash's Charizard.
 
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