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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Peter Quill, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    Considering that other people have been able to have a discussion on rape culture without the need for me to "prove" that it exists, you evading the question isn't' really working out in your favour. Other people are debating under the impression that it does exist, but if you're at least going to go against the thread it's better to post an argument instead of acting haughty and flipping the onus on me for no good reason. Actually get debating or I'll start whipping out infractions, it's that simple. What you're doing is tantamount to chatting in a debate thread.
     
    BritishLanguage likes this.
  2. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    You wish me to debate an unproven concept that can be pretty much summed up as a buzz word? How do you expect someone to debate something without bringing any evidence to the table? Examples? Anything? I have never seen anything that implies rape is openly praised and encouraged in our culture, in fact I've only seen the opposite. There are thousands upon thousands of campaigns that actively discourage rape, it is drilled in the minds of our youth that rape is completely and totally wrong. I have never heard of any organization or facet of our culture that has any form of influence encouraging rape.

    It simply is not there.
     
  3. I've talked with Psychic about this before, and just be aware that everything I say here is based on what I've seen. I'm not very good at moral / society issues because I don't tend to let things like this get in the way of my life. This is all as far as I've read, seen and heard.

    I would like to question the main goal of feminism - making both men and women equal. My question is this: how do you expect to achieve gender equality when society does the following:

    1. Violence between the opposite sex is more controversial. According to society, it's perfectly fine for men to hit other men. Brawls, competition, all these things. Woman hits a man? Also perfectly acceptable. But when a man hits a woman? You'll be sure to whip up some real controversy. Honestly, all forms of violence should be controversial. If it were equal, it would be equally as wrong for a man to hit a man as it is for a man to hit a woman. Same goes for women hitting men.

    2. Age of Consent. Here's a copy-paste regarding the age of consent in my country (The United Kingdom, it's similar for other western countries).

    So basically, if a boy has sex with a 13-15 year old girl, the boy goes to prison for two years. If a girl has sex with a 13-15 year old boy, she only gets prosecuted for indecent assault. What's the damn difference? If it were equal, both sexes would get equal punishments. 16-year-old girl has sex with a boy under 16? Send her to prison for two years like a boy would if he had sex with a girl under 16. Same thing would apply to a girl having sex with a boy under 13 (life imprisonment).



    So as it is, you can't have gender equality because society introduced laws and morals like this. I'd like someone to explain how we can achieve gender equality when while we're sending boys to prison for having sex with underage girls we're letting girls off with just a prosecution.


    https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Feminism
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  4. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    Actually, I wish for the forum to have a discussion on a concept which you feel is a buzz word and other people feel is a serious issue in either their everyday lives or the lives of people that they know. I said that feminists are fighting it, and then it's up for other posters (all of whom other than yourself) have made at least a sort of discussion on how they interpret rape culture in our society as well as providing their own sense of evidence. Why you're so dead-set on the fact that I have to provide some sort of evidence for you to consider making any sort of a decent post here is astounding.

    Then I think that we have a fundamental disagreement on how we view rape culture. Everybody knows that the act of raping somebody else is bad, and thank god for that at least. However that still doesn't mean that rape and other forms of sexual assault aren't in some way normalized in our society or not. How many times do you hear people say "I raped you" when referring to a match of Halo or some other game on Xbox Live? It's flippant comments like that which show an example of at least the normalization of rape in our culture. Rape is a topic that needs to be taken seriously, but here we have 12 year old kids screaming it without understanding the repercussions of what they're actually implying, and that's a problem.
     
  5. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    I don't think it is. Plenty of kids use the word gay and ****** as an insult, they also use words like N igger. Why? Because they're stupid kids. I'd even go as far to garner that most of the kids who use these words have nothing against black people or gay people. Kids always perverse negative words for their own use; they've done it with past issues and they will do it with future issues. It is hardly a reflection of a cultures view on a societal issue.

    Besides, this is primarily what feminists wanted, they wanted rape to become a mainstream issue, now it is. Perhaps your mistaking awareness and attention towards rape as normalcy and complacent attitudes towards it.
     
  6. Pesky Persian

    Pesky Persian Caffeine Queen

    No. No, it's not. In fact, it's drilled into the minds of young women that rape is terrifying and that we need to protect ourselves from it. We are taught to be constantly vigilant when we were are out of our homes. Cover up, act like a lady, don't drink so much, don't go out at night.

    What are boys taught again? Oh yeah, keep chasing that girl on the playground even when she tells you to go away. Keep going after that girl that turned you down because she'll change her mind. If she says she doesn't want to have sex, just keep bringing it up in conversation because that's what you want and you should get what you want because you're the man in the relationship.

    These things are all seen as normal. It's normal for a man to continually pursue a woman who has already said she's not interested. It's normal for a man to get angry and threaten women who turn them down. It's normal for people to ask "What were you wearing?" and "How much did you drink?" or "Are you sure it was rape?" after a woman's been through something traumatic. Look at how many cultures exist in which marital rape is still legal. And if you're raped within a relationship (or God forbid, a marriage) good luck finding someone to believe that you were actually raped. Look at how many people sympathized with the rapists in the Steubenville case.

    Or how about this gem:
    Or how about the numerous instances in this year alone in which colleges don't report rapes on campus?
    Here's a great one. Do you think a $75 fine and an essay is justice?

    How about the number of states in the U.S. that allow rapists to sue for custody and/or visitation rights to the children of their victims? Or how about the amount of rape porn consumed on a daily basis?

    What do you call all of this? Misogyny, certainly, but it's bigger than that.
     
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  7. Psychic

    Psychic Really and truly

    ^This. Read it. Then read it again. Then hang it up on your fridge, and staple it to your dog's collar.


    I'm just not sure how you expect this to be done. I consider myself to be a moderate feminist and I distance myself from extremists whenever possible, explaining my beliefs (as I did in my first post) and making it clear that they do not speak for the whole. Is there something else you feel I should have said?


    You also forget that organized religion is just that - organized. It has a hierarchy where leaders are chosen and are able to speak for the group. Feminists are just a bunch of people who share similar ideals and values - many of which are very diverse - and there is no official leader who can claim to speak for everyone. In the same way, there is no official leader of the gay rights movement who can purport to speak for all gay rights advocates. Some feminists are more in the public eye, but they're not necessarily leaders. Who are we supposed to get to make these statements? Where are we supposed to say them?

    The idea that all feminists argue and debate sexist pigs is entirely false. Not all feminists make it their duty to correct and argue with every jerk they meet for a multitude of reasons. For instance, aside from it just being an unpleasant experience, it's simply not all that productive. Not all religious people busy themselves with debating atheists - some of them make positive contributions to society or seek social change. Feminists are the same.

    How do you know that feminists don't argue and debate one another? Take a look and you'll find some pretty heated stuff. I certainly do not welcome those kinds of feminists and avoid associating with them, and I'm not the only one.


    True, consent can get sticky regarding intoxicated individuals, but the definition can be used pretty much across the board otherwise. It's also ridiculous that two drunken people having consensual sex can result in only the man being accused of rape - this follows the idea I have mentioned above, where "only men want sex and women never do," thus the assumption is that the woman was coerced or raped. Heaven forbid a woman wants to have consensual sex!

    As I mentioned above, if feminism had an organized hierarchy this might be simple, but we have no elected officials who are meant to speak for all of us. Who are we supposed to get to make these statements?

    I'm not sure the example you gave is misandristic (is that even a word?) or simply sexist. Regarding that specific video, it's the same male representation as the recent TV shows with incompetent fathers. The reason for this is because it's a backlash against the sitcoms from around the 50's-70's where the trope was that "(the hardworking) father knows best." To subvert this in more modern times the father figure is shown as incompetent/lazy.

    Either way, this really just looks like more of the double-edged sword of sexism we keep talking about. We have sexist notions about both men and women, which pervades everything from our expectations and assumptions to our cultural narratives. Again feminism doesn't want this - we want to end all sexism and discrimination against all sexes.

    Also, I see you have made no comment about my explanation for why women might be wary of men in public. If you'd like further information about our experiences, please do not hesitate to ask.


    You do realize that rape is more than an "implication," correct? It is something that affects a victim for the rest of their life. It hurts their willingness to trust, to form relationships, to have any kind of faith in themselves. Hell, even the public harassment I was talking about can ruin someone's day, never mind affecting the way they live their day-to-day life. And keep in mind that 1 in 4 women gets harassed in her lifetime, and we are told from day one that preventing harassment and rape is our responsibility, and ours alone.

    The idea that women should "accept" that they will be harassed if they dress a certain way is disgusting, especially since women get harassed anyway, no matter what they're wearing. This includes minors, for goodness' sake. The idea that we should tell some, but not all women "it's not your fault" is severely problematic and pretty disgusting.

    You're saying that a potential rapist will simply choose a different victim to rape. Someone still gets hurt, someone still gets traumatized for the rest of their life. So I ask again: how does this solve the problem of people being raped?

    Let us say that all of a sudden, our entire cultural clothing choices shift, and all women are now dressed more conservatively. Will this alone lower the number of rape cases? Absolutely not. Someone who is bent on raping an individual will not be dissuaded by clothing alone.

    Lastly, a vulnerable person may wear X type of clothing, but not all people who wear X type of clothing are more vulnerable than people who wear Y clothing. Vulnerability is defined far more by a person's self-confidence, willingness to stand up for oneself, willingness to set strong boundaries, and whether or not they are alone. A victim who looks weak, defenseless and alone is a far superior target than someone who doesn't look that way, regardless of their clothing. These are the types of traits serial killers look for, for instance, and for good reason. But does that mean we should blame rape victims for not being self-confident enough, for not being surrounded by others at all times (never mind that most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows)? You must admit that this would be ridiculous.

    Do you have any evidence that clothing seriously impacts a rapist's decision? Women of all ages and in all types of clothing, even women who go out of their way to look unattractive, still get harassed.

    This brings up another point: that judging people solely based on how they dress isn't right. Plenty of rape victims have not been taken seriously by cops because "you were wearing X, what did you expect?" They have been entirely dismissed on this basis alone. Why do we think this is an acceptable way to treat anyone? This is the problem with slut-shaming that we keep going back to - when you deem it is acceptable to treat someone in X dress a certain way, it does nobody any service.

    I'll just repeat that this is sexism that feminism is not okay with, as I have mentioned over and over previously.


    You're missing the point. You point out the injustices of being treated differently on the basis of gender, and in the same breath "question the main goal of feminism - making both men and women equal." Did you read my first post at all? Feminism agrees with you that society is sexist, and it wants to end that sexism. The entire point of feminism is to end discrimination based on gender, which includes women getting better treatment than men.

    The point of feminism is to change society. The laws and morals we currently have are sexist and wrong, and we have been slowly changing them over time. As I told you over VM, women used to be unable to vote or own property. We have come a long way, but the job isn't done.



    If you think Moogles made a bad argument in the OP, then debate it. If all you're going to do is post a statement with zero argument to back it up, don't bother posting. This is how the Debate forum is run. If you don't know what to debate, see PP's post.


    ~Psychic
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  8. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Utter absurdity.

    In western culture boys are not taught to persist after a no has been given. Boys are not taught to pursue a woman after she has turned them down. Boys are not taught that because they're a man they get what they want. In fact, they're taught the opposite. Where are you even coming up with this stuff?

    None of that is normal, any individual who thinks along those lines is not well. And to say that the majority of men think along those lines is not only disingenuous it is also (GASP!) sexist. And am I supposed to find it Shocking that after a woman turns a guy down he's mad? Pretty sure women get mad when they're turned down too.

    And why is questioning the validity of a rape such a crime? Are we supposed to believe and convict on the basis that a woman cried rape? Should we stop gathering evidence and asking questions and instead lock someone up JUST because a woman said so?

    Sounds more like an issue with the Colleges in question than a feminist issue. Lets us remember that it is not only Women who get raped.

    One mishandled case is supposed to make me believe that there is an epidemic of sexual assault injustices?

    Doesn't matter, it is not solely her child. Is it gross and messed up? Maybe. As despicable as rapists are, they are still humans and they still have rights.

    Do we really need to discuss fantasy=/= reality? I'm pretty sure the majority of mentally well adults can distinguish between the two.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  9. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    Unfortunately, there isn't really much one can do from there by oneself.

    Okay, yeah, that is cowardly of them, but that has nothing to do with the thread at hand.

    To be entirely fair to this statement, I don't think it's necessarily proper to call the behaviors of Australopithecus sp. "culture."

    Oh, wait, you're trying to say that what we've termed the "rape culture" is completely made up. With... no evidence to support it whatsoever at first. Always the sign of a good debater, bringing nothing to the table. I would pick at your arguments you posted later, but people did the work for me.

    If you seriously believe that either of your two posts to the point when this post was posted contained substance, you clearly have an enormous misunderstanding of what constitutes substance. That, and the statement comes off as an ad hominem considering the moderators are against you in this argument.

    There's also the matter of NOBODY CARES, but I think that's a side argument entirely.

    Okay, but do you not see how that is a problem? These children do not understand the weight of the words they're using and should be educated on the matter. In that respect, I would say that, yes, a child using the term even in innocence is a reflection of the culture's view on the societal issue.
     
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  10. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Societies view on rape is completely one sided: It is horrible. How children use that word is completely irrelevant to how society on a whole feels about it. Children always perverse words for their own use, there is nothing wrong with it and it will continue to happen.
     
  11. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    It's really not that hard to come up with this stuff. Although not a woman (I'm a gay man) I've been the subject of harassment from other men. I've literally had men who could quite possibly be three times my age give me the most ridiculously inappropriate comments once they find out that I'm gay. And I'm not a woman as well, but I've had someone phone me 15 times in one evening in an attempt for him to sleep with me. I've been at the receiving end of harassment for a month, even though I said multiple times for them to leave me alone. It's gotten to the point where I almost had to call campus security just so I would be fine in the evening. The scary part is that I'm not a woman. I can only imagine the sort of experiences that women have to deal with, simply because they'd have to deal with it a lot more than I would.

    Which is the double-edged sword that Psychic mentioned earlier in this thread. You're right, it is sexist, but those are also stereotypes perpetuated against men which stem from those which affect women as well. "Men want sex because women don't put out" and other sorts of nonsense. They're an intertwined issue.

    Being mad and frustrated over heartbreak and the like is perfectly fine. I've had to deal with something sort of similar as well- but there's an attitude surrounding many men in our society that women are *****es and only go for the jerks etc. etc. Where are the "nice guys" left? We have a population of men who feel that they should be entitled to sex with another person simply because they are friends with them, then act like brats when they get denied. I've been called a stupid **** for not wanting to do more with another guy, and I've seen countless of my female friends being called *****es simply because they wanted to stay friends.

    But of course, none of that would exist if men weren't raised with the expectation and belief that they will have someone to have sex with (whether it be male or female) at the end of the day. I'd go further, but I'm starting to digress.

    Not when the "validity" of the rape comes down to asinine and ridiculous questions like what she was wearing. Psychic made a point that even women in niqab get sexually assaulted. Do you honestly think any of those questions change the situation? A woman (or man) was sexually assaulted.

    It's also an issue of women/men who are afraid to go to proper college authorities in fear of being ridiculed. Also if you're going to start doubting when a woman gets sexually assaulted it'll be hard to believe when a man gets sexually assaulted.

    The issue is that it's not just one mishandled case. There's numerous ones, and you could honestly do a google search to find them.

    This is just abhorrent I really don't have words for this one.

    We do actually. Pornography's foundation is women in positions of lesser power, and lots of men get gratified to that sort of thing. It's not hard to make a link between people who get off to it then doing the sort of thing in reality- However, I'm not expert in that sort of field.

    Except when children grow up into adults who then continue to use the term colloquially without repercussion. (Yes adults do this as well)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  12. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Although I truly feel for you none of that is rape, which is what this discussion is about. And even if it was, a few bad apples being douche bags does not mean that suddenly we live in a culture that promotes the idea that men are entitled to sex and the other things in the post you quoted me responding too. I am a man, I am gay too. I assure you if you turned me down I would not pursue you further. I have also never been sexually harassed after turning someone down.

    I should also mention that although rarer women also engage in the same behaviour, when I used to go to clubs I can recall three incidents in which a woman grabbed my butt out of the blue and came onto me despite me showing absolutely no interest in said woman. I am also sure the same is true for many men. It is not a one sided gender issue.

    For every person who crosses the line of acceptable behaviour there are many more who do not. We need to remember that.

    Fair enough. But women do it too. I'd take far less issue with topics like these if everyone would just acknowledge that only one gender isn't a fault here. Women are not innocent, they do the exact same things men do when pursuing sexual partners.

    It isn't a feminist issue here, its an issue of people from both genders having entitlement issues.


    No, asking hat she was wearing is stupid. Questioning and collecting evidence to discover if she was truly sexually assaulted is necessary. Even if those questions come across as dickish.


    I'm skeptical of all claims until provided with proof. I will take someones claim that they've been raped seriously, but I will not condemn another until I can prove they are actually at fault. That was my point.

    I'm also of the firm belief that far more men get raped then we believe, they simply say and do nothing about it out of shame.

    As long as it isn't anything close to a majority it really isn't something I will be up in arms about. It is unfortunate, but it is in no way the epidemic people make it out to be.

    Yes it is. But it's the law. He has rights, those rights are not abolished when he rapes someone.


    In that case we should ban pokemon. It clearly promotes dog fighting.


    It is a word. I take little issue with an adult saying the word rape. Do you take issue when someone says the word kill while playing a video game? What about murder? Both of those words are far more serious than rape.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  13. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    Have you ever been raped? Can you speak for anyone who's ever been raped? For that matter, can you speak for anyone other than yourself regardless of who they are and what has happened to them?
     
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  14. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    No. But the notion we would censor words and not be allowed to say them because it may hurt peoples feelings is ridiculous.

    Loving all this neg rep too. It is like delicious sour candy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  15. Psychic

    Psychic Really and truly

    Nobody is saying that anyone should be convicted without evidence, however it's important to note that relevant evidence is gone after less than two days, and many victims are afraid to come out right away. Many people are scared into silence due to the shame and trauma they suffer, and it can often take some time for a victim to work up the courage to go to the police, at which point most hard evidence may be gone.

    Think about all the stories of little boys and girls who were raped by football coaches, priests, teachers and family members. Many of them stay silent due to shame and fear, even when they grow up and understand what happened, even well into adulthood. This includes a close personal friend of mine, who suffers from the trauma of that experience to this day. Have you seen the photos of weeping old men? Think about all the teenagers who were raped, weren't taken seriously, and then mercilessly bullied to the point that they committed suicide. This is the kind of climate we create for victims.

    You are trying to paint a picture where there can only be two options: either all victims must be believed and all accusers must be punished immediately, OR every victim is assumed to be lying and the accuser has a fair trial. That you think there can only be one or the other is ridiculous - there is such a thing as striking a balance.

    If anybody here said "only women get raped," please quote them. The subject of the topic is feminism and female victims, but that does not mean we are saying only women are victims.

    The fact of the matter is that nobody wants anybody raping anybody. We also want to create a climate whereby victims feel safe and where they will be believed. Since male victims have an even harder time coming forward due to shame and fear, men should be all for creating such an environment, and I find it shocking that there is such a pushback.

    Good job reading the article. To quote it (emphasis mine):
    "She said she initially was unaware there was a wave of similar complaints already filed against other colleges.

    Gilchriese said she gained strength after she saw a University of Southern California sexual assault victim's blog post, and sent the woman, Tucker Reed, an email seeking advice. Gilchriese last week connected for the first time with other women who have filed complaints against their schools and are organizing a campaign to raise awareness about sexual violence victims' rights in college."

    This is not an isolated incident. This is widespread. My own university has issues with how it treats assault as well, and only recently opened a rape crisis centre after a huge amount of pressure from a student group. Schools do not live in vacuums - if you think this problem magically exists solely in schools, it's time to open your eyes. In addition, many victims who have gone to the police simply were not believed, never mind being believed by family, friends, or their school (including high school students).


    I've said it before and I'll say it again: harassment is part of rape culture. That people feel they can harass others, push boundaries and invade others' spaces is part of how people feel they can get away with raping another person. It's all on the same continuum, just different ends of it.

    Nobody here is arguing that it's appropriate for women to do this. The reason it happens is because men do and it is seen as acceptable, so women follow. A lot of people don't realize that women have to deal with harassment on a daily basis, to the point that it is normalized. Often, when women talk about it, they are told "it's no big deal, that's life, deal with it." Many women suffer through this in silence because they're ashamed and/or are told it's "no big deal." It is only when they start to speak up that they realize they are not alone, and they are not crazy.

    I've already linked to this, but once again, please see everydaysexism where hundreds of thousands of women have posted their stories of harassment. Many of these accounts include being told by others "you're overreacting" and "it's no big deal." This silencing victims is part of rape culture.

    Feminist issues don't only have to deal with women's rights. Feminism doesn't deny that sexism hurts men as well (as I have stated repeatedly in this thread). In improving the climate for female rape victims, it would also help male rape victims. That's the magic of it.

    This is a widely-held belief, and rightfully so. Again, if someone in this thread said otherwise, please quote them. However, we will not be able to get more men to come forward if we retain this hostile environment toward rape victims. Asking victims, as PP said, "What were you wearing?" and "How much did you drink?" or "Are you sure it was rape?" does not create a safe, healthy environment. In addition, by eliminating sexist notions, such as "men always want sex and women never do," we can remove many misconceptions about male and female sexuality. For instance, by acknowledging that men don't always want sex, you'll have less people who don't believe men can be raped.

    1 in 6 people will be assaulted in their lifetime. Why on earth shouldn't we focus on creating a safe environment for them to speak out, and create a society where we can make this number drop?

    Also, I frankly don't see why you think the argument that "well it doesn't happen all the time, so we shouldn't do anything about it" holds any ground. Let's turn your argument around: "false rape allegations don't happen all that often, so we should assume ever accused rapist is guilty." Oh yes, that seems logically sound to me.

    Do you understand what the trigger warning at the top of the thread is for? Many rape victims are severely traumatized by their experience and can be triggered, experiencing symptoms of PTSD by a variety of things. It's not about "hurting feelings" - it's about creating a safer environment for people who have been severely traumatized. It is very nice and easy for you, as someone who has never been raped, to say people shouldn't be censored. But you most likely know someone who has been raped or assaulted, even if you don't know it, and why you would be happy to ruin their day by making a comment that triggers them, instead of having some common decency and at least giving some kind of warning to save them that pain, is beyond me.

    Really, it's attitudes like this that make it difficult to create a safe environments for rape victims. I am baffled that you think that any of these things would help victims, especially if we want more male victims to come forward.

    ~Psychic
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  16. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    "Implication" means everything that could possibly occur given an action that's taken. Rape is included here. It doesn't matter it's effects, that's not what I was arguing at all, it's not even pertinent to my statements.

    Wow, where in anything I have said did I say it's acceptable to harass someone when they dress one way or another? This is blatant overreaction. Read my post again, because if you think this is a suitable response you didn't understand it.

    It solves it on the individual level. So far as I know, feminists love to talk about how rape is worse than everything bad that ever happened in the history of bad things, but not one of the wants to suggest an avenue to improve the situation. It's easy to see the effects of clothes on the psyche, and how they influence others, which includes people who might assault or rape you. It's as simple as that.

    Actually, it might. It's a hypothetical, so we can't test it, but there's a good chance that rape will actually decrease given those conditions.

    You like to go on about how a rapist would see things, then ignore it here. I honestly don't think a rapist is going to care about how vulnerable someone in a miniskirt and tank top actually is, it's how they're presented that matters in the human psyche.

    Clothing changes the wearer's perception:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/clothes-and-self-perception.html
    and it changes the viewer's perception:
    http://quickbase.intuit.com/blog/2012/05/23/dress-code-or-not-what-you-wear-matters/
    and more recent information,
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-our-brains-turn-women-into-objects
    The last link here actually links to a study that talks about how the brain sees people who are wearing less clothing as more vulnerable.
    Uh, this is it:
    http://www.mpm.umd.edu/Gray, Knobe, Sheskin, Bloom & Barrett. (in press). Objectification.pdf

    I thought I made it very, very clear that judgment solely based on dress is wrong. That doesn't mean how you dress doesn't effect people's psyche, their perception, and their interaction with you. It doesn't matter how illogical or even immoral this is, because the human brain does it by default. We categorize and perceive others depending on how they look, dress, act, speak, sound, all before we know who they are. Nobody is suggesting it's okay to treat someone worse because of how they dress. That's more or less a strawman of my position, which is your style of dress effects how people treat you.

    This sexism isn't compatible with a Patriarchy, so the fact it exists means feminists who actually believe the Patriarchy drivel are more likely to throw any sexism against males out the window. I'm glad you're not okay with it, but some of your peers, some who aren't even radical, don't accept that sexism happens for men.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  17. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    No I'm not, I'm saying accusations of rape should be taken seriously but believing someone just on the basis of their word is foolish, nothing more. That doesn't mean you treat said victim with cynicism though, don't get the wrong idea.

    No, but you guys seem to be heavily implying that only men can be rapists.

    Yeah, more male blaming. Do you have any shred of evidence that men are responsible for the abysmal progress in rape victim support based on the virtue of them simply being men?

    I never implied it was an isolated incident, I merely suggested that the issue of people not taking rape accusations seriously is very small in comparisson to the accusations that are taken seriously.

    I'd be fascinated to discover the vigorous mental gymnastics you must have gone through to come to the conclusion that women only sexually harass other people because men do. I mean seriously?

    I do know this and I do agree that it is wrong. But I have to wonder, do you consider men trying to pick up women to be sexual harassment? How far is too far for you?
    I'd be more convinced if so many feminists weren't actively trying to lead a crusade against the male gender.

    I'm starting to think you've misinterpreted my position. I am all for rape victims having a safer environment to get help. What I'm against is this subtle undertone of "Men are to blame", "Men do this", "Men, Men, Men".

    It really gets me up in arms over this issue. I swear, I'd have had no problem what so ever with half the statements in this thread if instead of the word "men" people used the word "people". Because men are not solely responsible, people from both gender are, both are victims, both are predators. Singling out men as the source for all this and vilifying them is simply unfair.

    I'm sick of being the bad guy by default because I have a penis.

    I... never said we shouldn't?

    I never said we shouldn't do anything about it, I just said it isn't as a big of a deal or prevalent as most feminists would have you believe.

    I would never use the word because I understand that it could offend people. But the fact is you can't stop others from using it. I don't agree with what is said, but i'll fight to make sure people have the right to say it. Free speech and all that.
     
  18. Blazekickblaziken

    Blazekickblaziken Snarktastic Ditz

    Brief history of feminism, the movement is divided into three waves, each with their own focus. The first wave of feminism was in the 19th century through the 20th. It dealt primarily with getting women the rights to vote and own land. The second wave was in the 60's to the 80's and dealt with issues of discrimination, such as equal pay for equal work. In the 90's the third wave of feminism began, growing out of the third wave, but distinguishing itself from it. The third wave brings us the concept of intersectionality, which is to say different minority statuses stack and interact in ways that create a different experience for everyone. Previously feminism was "for white women" (not purposely or out of racism, but because of ignorance), now feminism is for everyone. Also now feminism is dealing with issues of representation in media, which considering how big of an influence in our lives the media is, is very important.

    Backtracking a bit to the issue of consent, I'd like to add this to the definition. You have to be CAPABLE of consent. This is why statutory rape exists, because a teenager might give permission to an adult to have sex, but they don't have enough life experience to understand all of the consequences of having sex with someone much older than them. This is also why someone who is intoxicated can't consent, because they aren't in their faculties. Yes, consent gets iffy when dealing with two intoxicated adults, but that's a separete issue and should be treated as such.

    Regarding using rape colloquially and it's status as a very special crime. Wether or not you want to admit it, rape is a VERY charged word. It's a very traumatic thing and there's a lot of social stigma attached to being a victim (damaged goods territory, ****, liar, so on and so forth). Sure you can pretend that this baggage doesn't exist and throw it around like nothing matters, after all, freedom of speech. You're still a giant jerk for throwing it around like that. As for rape being a very special evil, I take issue with that because it leads to people thinking that it takes a very evil person to do that. Which leads to "Oh, but timmy couldn't have raped that girl, he's such a nice, wholesome boy. See, he doesn't look like a moustache twirling bad guy."

    That being said, It's easy to understand why it's such a special evil. To illustrate a point, getting robbed is such a horrible experience because it robs you of your sense of safety and security in your home. It's a terrible experience and takes time to recover from. Now, with rape it's similar, except instead of not feeling safe and secure in your own home, you don't feel safe and secure in your own BODY. Add to that the fact that odds are you are raped by someone you know (a date, a friend, family member, significant other), add to that the social stigma(of which there are many kinds) and now it makes sense why some victims of rape get PTSD (post-traumatic stree disorder).
     
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  19. Qvalador

    Qvalador tainted holy water

    My, my, this is certainly my first post in a while.

    This is honestly a serious issue that some people dismiss as unimportant or petty. Everyone in this world expects rights (well, everyone in the free world, anyway), and they should be expected, but it is made an issue when someone asks for them. Eras have passed and new kinds of people are just beginning to see the light of acceptance. We've passed countless phases like this-- be it the Black Rights movements not so long ago, or the establishment of democracy many moons back, or the current LGBTQ movement in our society today. And yet, as all of these great movements of human equality come and pass, we forget the freedom of women. Human beings. There is nothing different about them but their gender. They behave the same, they've been with us the whole time. They didn't just sprout up one day, and they aren't a trend that's just beginning to break free. Women have always been here, just as long as men. It makes no sense that women haven't always been fully liberated-- turning them into temples of reproduction is just plain wrong, and everyone who degrades them knows it in their hearts. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There are no loopholes. Anyone who doesn't think women deserve every bit of recognition as any man does is absolutely, completely wrong and there is no excuse. Welcome to humanity.
     
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  20. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    Everyone in the "free world"? I'll assume you mean 1st world countries, or enlightened countries. It's a moral issue whether those who are denied rights ask for them or not. It makes no difference.

    I wish there were an emoticon for cross-armed disapproval. Are we really foregoing the freedom of women in any sphere, social or otherwise? Rights can be argued, in specific places in specific ways, equality, the same, but freedoms are very well established in the U.S. The only places we're still seeing women treated like garbage or less than a person are areas under extreme religious influence. I don't think India does it anymore, but areas around there still orchestrate marriages for a sufficient dowry or largess. In the Middle East we see females, notably, Malala, fight to even attain an education. We have nothing of the sort here in the U.S., not even close.


    This is completely incorrect. There's a profound difference between men and women physically and mentally, that ranges from pain tolerance and heat resistance to being generally gentler and more nurturing. Human are sexually dimorphic creatures, so we have definable physical characteristics which set us apart from one another on the basis of gender.

    Who is doing this? If you don't mean our society, that's completely acceptable, but nowhere in the enlightened world are we seeing women being used as "temples of reproduction". I hear all this charged language and see really no point to it. Lets pick out the issues, sort out which we can solve, then talk about how we can do that instead of meandering around the issue, lost, with no clear focus in discussion.
     

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