Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

[arized]

Even though I'm not a woman, I still have a general idea of what it's like.

The examples are not contradictory. Blaziken is saying that, if you are not part of the oppressed group, you have to be aware of your lack of firsthand experience.

You don't need first-hand experience to understand solutions or empathise with someone that has been oppressed. If you don't have first-hand experience, you need to be aware that you need to do much more listening than you do talking and you shouldn't argue with someone of that group about their experiences .

You would need first-hand experience to say "I know what that's like" otherwise you don't really know. You have not lived their experience.

"I know what it's like" is a dangerous statement, anyway, because it is so vague. What part do you know? How I live my life with the impending threat of harassment or discrimination? Or do you just understand that I have to face it every day?

Note: Bold statements are quotes.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

Also, while a guy, I am neither white, nor straight. Just putting that out there.

I mean, really, it shouldn't be that hard of a concept. You only know the experiences you've gone through. You can hear stories about what it's like, but you don't *know* what it's like.

It's one thing to be told the story, and it's a completely different thing to live it. That doesn't mean that you can't be supportive or that you can't have an opinion, itjust means that you have to go through that much effort to inform yourself about the situation.

 

[The Federation]

Men don't, however, understand what it's like to face and live with street harassment from a woman's experience.

Men do, however, understand what harassment is like. Everyone understands what harassment is like. This is relatable for most people, to be honest. Most if not all of these issues can be understood and spoken about similarly from a male or female perspective.

Sometimes, men do not understand that this is oppressive to women because they see that this remedies the harassment.

After speaking extensively on this subject I will defer. Me and the studies I provided, along with the links to news sites and the like. Rather let people believe what they want than be reprimanded.

Hopefully, the dichotomy of why that statement is offensive helps to illustrate better what it means to comment on sex-specific issues from viewpoints of either sex.

It doesn't matter in the end, because what is being suggested is that one gender can't understand another's issues because of their gender. It can certainly be advantageous to understand firsthand the issues being discussed, but most discussions in real life don't work that way. You just have to understand the concepts and their effects to be able to comment.

Man or woman, either an make a statement on a given phenomenon. Neither gender is oblivious to the feelings of the other, because in the end, we're all human.

 

[arized]

I'm not saying you cannot understand women's issues because you are male.

I'm saying (I think Blaziken is basically saying the same thing) if you have no first-hand experience then you need to listen.

If you have no first-hand experience, obtained knowledge is your only credential for making a statement.

If you have first-hand experience, your credentials for making a statement are innate.

 

[The Federation]

I'm saying (I think Blaziken is basically saying the same thing) if you have no first-hand experience then you need to listen.

I don't think that he is saying the same thing at all, but to address your point: if I have listened, if I have received the evidence, why am I less qualified when discussing issues like this? Anything that falls into the moral realm can be understood with reason and analysis.

 

[arized]

I don't think that he is saying the same thing at all, but to address your point: if I have listened, if I have received the evidence, why am I less qualified when discussing issues like this? Anything that falls into the moral realm can be understood with reason and analysis.

You are as qualified as your knowledge and experience. So, if you have not experienced something, then you are clearly less qualified. If you receive knowledge from someone that has experience, you are less qualified than them because, while you have the same knowledge, you lack the same experience.

For gender-related issues, you are innately qualified based upon your gender. As a woman, you know what it's like to live as a woman every day. As a man, so do you about everyday life as a man. When exchanging information about these life experiences, you only comprehend what you have decoded from their message about that discrete experience. You don't really understand what it is to live as a woman.

If you are a woman speaking about women's issues, then you are certainly more qualified than a man speaking about those issues. As a man speaking about women's issues, it should be more like asking "will this help?" instead of saying "this will help". You don't know for certain and you will never experience it, so, it is right to ask those that do. If a man spoke against gender oppression, they should ask, "Is this oppression? Is this a solution?" They should not simply speak their thoughts as if they are fact and offer a solution. That is actually another method of oppression. This is different for textbook knowledge, but, gender is very complex, so I would tread lightly.

Hopefully this makes sense. I retyped it a bunch because of digression, but, I think it's on point. I'll clarify anything necessary.

 

[Sadib]

Also, while a guy, I am neither white, nor straight. Just putting that out there.

Why were you talking about hair then?

I'm not saying you cannot understand women's issues because you are male.

I'm saying (I think Blaziken is basically saying the same thing) if you have no first-hand experience then you need to listen.

If you have no first-hand experience, obtained knowledge is your only credential for making a statement.

If you have first-hand experience, your credentials for making a statement are innate.

First-hand experience is a very vague concept. Many people may think they have it, because of how loose the definition is.

 

[arized]

First-hand experience is a very vague concept. Many people may think they have it, because of how loose the definition is.

I don't think there's any vagueness in experiencing something or not.

 

[Sadib]

I don't think there's any vagueness in experiencing something or not.

What exactly is the experience you are talking about?

 

[arized]

What exactly is the experience you are talking about?

That's irrelevant. You have either experienced something or you have not.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

Why were you talking about hair then?

As an example to prove my point. I am a latino with curly hair. You have no idea how many times I've heard that I have bad/black hair (although I'm sure black people get it much worse, so i won't claim to know what it's like for them). The point is, that there's this really weird trend of men mansplaining women's experiences to women, because they "know" what it's like.

@The Federation

I've explained my position until I was blue in the face. Now arized is explaining my position. I'm going to chalk it up to you not wanting to understand my position.

Also, I previously posted that regular harassment is different in scope to street harassment. I'm making no claim to which one is worse than the other, just pointing out that they are fundamentally different. And while, sure, I'm sure that everything can be understood with logic and reason, you seem to ignore that dlgender dynamics is a very complex issue where all these situations are very nuanced and have larger social implications. If you don't understand how appropriating other people's experience is rude, patronising, and oppressive, then that's on you. It's certainly not because of lack of other people explaining it.

 

[John Madden]

First-hand experience is a very vague concept. Many people may think they have it, because of how loose the definition is.

i'm sure a lot of men think they have first-hand experience in being in the position of women in every single sector, issue and interaction of society

that doesn't mean that through some magical semantic argument, they actually have that experience

 

[The Federation]

Women certainly have more authority on the subject of how women are treated. That much, I think, isn't contested. I am simply saying that, while women understand the experience, it doesn't detract anything from men who want to participate in the discussion because that experience can be conferred. This gives neither party more advantage, unless the assumption is that women are unable to explain their situation, which I don't think is the case.

Saying that men are less qualified is essentially excluding them from the conversation. We are more than capable of combining personal experience and an account of the issues to come to conclusions. Basic human experience is the standard. This is how humanity manages not to kill itself (all the time), because we can empathize and form rational conclusions given the evidence.

 

[Aegiscalibur]

i'm sure a lot of men think they have first-hand experience in being in the position of women in every single sector, issue and interaction of society

that doesn't mean that through some magical semantic argument, they actually have that experience

What was debated here is whether you need first-hand experience to understand something. If a person's argument does not hinge on first-hand experience, why would they be incorrect because of lack of first-hand experience when it is irrelevant to the argument? They can use other means to understand the situation.

 

[Sadib]

Objection!

Women certainly have more authority on the subject of how women are treated. That much, I think, isn't contested. I am simply saying that, while women understand the experience, it doesn't detract anything from men who want to participate in the discussion because that experience can be conferred. This gives neither party more advantage, unless the assumption is that women are unable to explain their situation, which I don't think is the case.

Saying that men are less qualified is essentially excluding them from the conversation. We are more than capable of combining personal experience and an account of the issues to come to conclusions. Basic human experience is the standard. This is how humanity manages not to kill itself (all the time), because we can empathize and form rational conclusions given the evidence.

I have bolded the contradiction in your post. Which is it? Are men equally qualified or less qualified to know the hardships of women? We have arguing the same question for at least a month now. We are going nowhere with this. Can we all just agree that even though men aren't women, they still have some understanding of what being a woman is like and thus have some merit to discuss women issues? If not, then I do not see how this debate can continue.

 

[arized]

Men can't really know what being a woman is like. That's inherent to the gender-specific experience. Again, the same can be said for women in relation to men.

Men and women can understand the parts of the opposite gender's living experiences that are unisex or not gender-specific at all.

Even though I understand racial discrimination and oppression and I understand how it negatively effects the oppressed, I don't understand what it's like to live it. There is more to the living experience of the oppressed than the immediate interaction of oppression.

The language you use is very important. To simply say "I understand" would imply that you understand all of it, and, if you aren't living it, you don't. It just doesn't effect your daily life the same way it does for someone that lives it.

 

[The Federation]

Objection!
I have bolded the contradiction in your post. Which is it?

Hmm, I should have phrased it better. The point I'm trying to get across is that, while women are the foremost authority on the issue due to their integral involvement, men can be (and in many cases are) equally qualified to speak about the issue. So while women have more authority, both are qualified to talk about it. It can be hard to distinguish from closely related words sometimes, so I should have been more careful.

We have arguing the same question for at least a month now. We are going nowhere with this.

Not quite a month, this threat was stagnant for about a week. I want to keep this on the table as long as it takes for males and females to be acknowledged to be equally qualified in discussion. Otherwise, what's the point of this thread?

 

[Sadib]

Hmm, I should have phrased it better. The point I'm trying to get across is that, while women are the foremost authority on the issue due to their integral involvement, men can be (and in many cases are) equally qualified to speak about the issue. So while women have more authority, both are qualified to talk about it. It can be hard to distinguish from closely related words sometimes, so I should have been more careful.


Not quite a month, this threat was stagnant for about a week. I want to keep this on the table as long as it takes for males and females to be acknowledged to be equally qualified in discussion. Otherwise, what's the point of this thread?

You're still not making any sense. How can men be equally qualified about things they cannot experience? Maybe if a women doesn't experience them, then she's as qualified as a man?

Trust me. It's been over a month. I got an up reputation for this post. Let's go back to talking about feminism.

 

[Buttons]

Just poking around the front page here (have my pages set up so the last displayes first) and it seems like none of you have actually been raped. Trust me its not something you go around arguing about prespectives on. It is something that needs to be stopped in its tracks.

Acting like you understand what a victim of rape goes through is an insult to them and all they have been through. Arguing over boys or girls understanding it better or worse is getting away from the issue of the HUMAN involved. Genetals don't matter when you have been violated like that.

The only major difference is between how men and women handle the situation after the fact. Only a handful of female victims report the incident and a much lower precent of male victims report it. This is the part of the 'culture' that needs to be changed first. People need to be comfortable, no matter what gender, with reporting a rape when it happens. I'm a member of the gay community and the problem of male rape is bad enough to be a reality every time you go out socially.

Lets get on to actual solutions instead of throwing around accusations of 'who is more hurt' or 'who understands this better.' To start with people have to understand that its a reality no matter what gender you are. Being a victim of rape does not determine your orientation. All rapes need to be reported as soon as they happen to catch the culprit. The social stigma towards women being *****s and men being gay because of someone attacking them in this way needs to go away. For the future people should respect that others are not just sexual objects to be handled without care.

Now lets discuss the above and get away from gender based arguments. I hope we can all agree that no matter what gender you are its a horrid thing to be raped and there needs to be less of a social stigma to reporting and adressing the issue.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

@Buttons Errr... no one is talking about rape right now. So I'm not sure what your indignant fury is all about.

Also, as a genral comment, no one is saying men can't participate in a discussion about feminism (Much less me, considering i'm a man), men just need to actually inform themselves before participating because they have no idea what it's like being a woman. And if you think you can "know" on the same level as a woman what she is going through, then you haven't informed yourself enough.