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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Peter Quill, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. Steampunk

    Steampunk One Truth Prevails

    Ok, let me put it this way. Every action we take can increase or decrease our chances of something bad happening to us. For example, we should periodically change the password to our email account, to help it from being hacked, but if we don't and we get hacked, are we to blame? Partially, because we could have takes steps that would have made us less of a target, but the hacker still wronged us, and he is at fault.

    If all women dressed modestly, then everyone has an equal chance of getting raped, but if you dress skantily, then your chances of getting raped or harassed go up, maybe just a little, but still.

    While this is true. This doesn't really help us, because that is not the case in our society.

    But as the saying goes "Clothing makes a statement" and that can be one of confidence of vulnerability.

    I have to agree with this. With there being so many crimes that a person (Man or Woman) could do to someone who appeared vulnerable, there is probably a reason why he chose rape.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  2. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    It is in no way normal for man to continue to pursue someone after they have outright turned them down, at least in civilized countries. To do so implies a deeper rooted issue. Third world countries are obviously different, the majority of those countries are extremely primitive and basic when it comes to human rights issues. A long time ago England was the same. Time will change them.

    Oh? Aside from his right of freedom what rights does a rapist lose exactly?


    It is not true. The only people affected by fantasy are people who were never well to begin with. If a child were to watch rape porn? That would be a bad, like really bad, that can warp a child and perverse his ideas of what sex really is. But a well adjusted and mentally well individual watching it? Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    Simply put, if you are sufficiently able to distinguish fantasy from reality violent forms of media entertainment will have no adverse effects on you.

    If fantasy violence did cause real world violence there would be far more real world violence, yet every single time a violent crime is committed and videogames are linked it is either a witch hunt or later discovered that the individual was mentally unwell and thus unable to safely play mature content. Furthermore, what would make rape porn and violent video games more damaging to the psyche than say violent programming and books? Should we ban all forms of violent media because a few mentally unwell individuals are adversely affected by it? Why should we prohibit such things when we could instead work on helping the individuals who are adversely affected by it in the first place?

    Also, let me tell you some things about rape porn. People do not watch it because it is rape, people watch rape porn because of its inherent wrongness. It is not the rape that turns people on, it is the fact that is wrong that is so sexually appealing to some people. There are many many people who get a sexual thrill from deviant sexual practices, I could name others but they are far too graphic and gross. IT does not mean that these people are potential rapists, they're just people who are turned on by sexual fantasies that society considers taboo.

    I consider them to be just words, I can only speak for myself and my opinion has no bearing on how other people feel about said words. But that was not the point of my post. The point was, no matter how much effect a word can have you cannot prohibit its use, nor should you be able to.
     
  3. Pesky Persian

    Pesky Persian Caffeine Queen

    Please be aware that some content of this post and some of the links provided may contain disturbing material and (obviously) discussion of sexual assault/abuse.

    Do women respond in a way that is as violent and as frequent?

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be evidence. Please quote where I said that.

    I never said men don't get raped (although research shows that most men who are raped are raped by other men, go figure), but women have a higher prevalence of being the victim.

    3% of rapist going to prison seems pretty unjust.

    It's not just Steubenville or the 14-year-old victim.

    Example from the link above:

    This is so disgusting I hardly know how to respond to it. You don't get the right to harass and torment someone whom you forcibly impregnated. That is just sick.


    Do you know with 100% certainty that the women in those videos gave enthusiastic consent to have those sexual acts performed on them? Can you know with 100% certainty that no coercion went on during the filming of those scenes? Do you know with 100% certainty that the "simulated" rape you are viewing is not actual rape? Furthermore, let's use a little critical thinking here. If someone gets off to the idea of someone being raped does that not also mean they are turned on by rape? There is also a huge difference between your porn/pokemon analogy. Pokemon are not real. There are no real people in Pokemon. Porn actors/actresses are real people involved in real sex acts, the consequences of which are very real.

    Some links for you.
    Some statistics on pornography. (Sources and additional links at the bottom of the page.)
    Here's an interesting piece from the above link:
    More statistics, which also bring up the point that pornography and sex trafficking/prostitution are heavily linked.
    Very important snippets from the above link:
    and

    and

    How about some actual porn stars discussing the violence and coercion they faced in the industry?
    And a Study on the effects of violence and pornography on real world views.
    And since many women who have been trafficked into pornography are also trafficked into other sex work (i.e. prostitution), here's a really long research article on men who buy sex vs. men who don't, but I urge you to read some of the comments made by both groups of men and how they view women in the industry.
    Also, this blog highlighting the "reviews" Johns give women they've bought for sex. (Let's also keep in mind that while prostitution is illegal in many parts of the world, it is still a huge, widely-accessible industry and is actually legal in some countries.)
    Last, but certainly not least, if you have some time Dr. Gail Dines has some interesting things to say.

    Does this look like "just fantasy" to you? Support your claims because I sure as hell have plenty of support for mine.


    And even though I didn't get involved in the rape joke discussion, here's an article that discusses a researched link between rape jokes and the way sexual assault victims are viewed. (Links provided in the article.)

    I'll try to get back to Profesco's post at a later time, but I do urge you to keep in mind, Profesco, that you are a male in this society and it only makes sense that you wouldn't see the everyday violence against women. You can say you don't see these things, but I see them everyday. I see them in the way that I've been taught from a young age that I'm not allowed to ride my bike 1/4 mile down the road to my aunt's house because I'll get raped and murdered. I see them in the way my brother never got these warnings. In the way that he had freedoms I wasn't afforded. I see them in the way I can't walk down the sidewalk with my boyfriend without having older men catcall or point at me (keep in mind that people also often think I'm a teenager so this is doubly creepy). I see them in the times my best friend's roommate came home from her job as a stripper crying because of the number of men who tried to pay her to have sex with them (because if she's going to strip to pay for college, she must be for sale, right?). Or the number of times she was actually assaulted by these men. I see these things in my best friend who is still pursued by a guy she rejected (and continuously rejects) six years ago. I see these things in the number of friends I've had who were sexually assaulted and/or raped at young ages, by friends or family members. I see these things when I talk about my ex-boyfriend trying to sexually assault me and people tell me I'm overreacting, that it wasn't a big, and that I should have expected him to try to do those things because we were dating. I see them when people tell me I'm a bitch for not wanting anything to do with him and his friends say that I deserve to die for asking him not to text me anymore.

    I don't like using anecdotal evidence, but I felt the need to point this out. These are not your lived experiences, but these are my experiences. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. I have more to say, but I am too tired to post more right now, but I'll try to get back to you, Profesco.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
    ellie likes this.
  4. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Yes.


    So what?

    That link doesn't prove anything. It says that out of 100 rape accusations only 3 rapists on average will see jail time. It has nothing to do with people taking the rape claim seriously, it has everything to do with a lack of evidence. That doesn't prove your point, it only proves that it is hard as hell to prove that someone actually raped you.

    No, but the court can give you the right to see the child, the mother feelings never come into the decision. I'm not saying I agree with it, it is just the way it is. Don;t like it? Find a way to change the law.

    The camera set, bright lights, well lit room and the horrible acting are pretty good indicators. Then again, I don;t watch rape porn, or even straight porn for that matter. But it is pretty damn easy to tell an actual rape for a acted rape. Kind of a moot point tbh.

    If someone gets off on battling fictional animals in a fictional universe whats stopping them from starting a dog fighting ring?

    If someone enjoys getting headshots in a video game whats to stop them from trying to snipe people in real life?

    See the pattern? Any well adjusted and mentally sane individual is perfectly able to distinguish real life from fantasy. By your logic the two examples I posted above are also valid, and if thats the case then we should ban everything.

    "Treasures is a unique, faith-based outreach and support group for women in the sex industry."

    Sorry, I instantly disregarded and lost interest after reading that.

    Yes it does. You can post all the links and studies you want, but at the end of the day porn has had zero negative effects on the majority of males in our society. How do I know this? It is almost a given that every male in our society watches porn. Yet rapists are still a clear minority of the male populace.

    If porn had the effect your implying then this would be an epidemic, almost every single male would be a violent and ravenous sex beast. Yet they are not. Why?

    I will believe everything you say on the day you can provide me a source stating that anything more than a minority of men have turned into rapists due to watching porn.
     
    LDSman likes this.
  5. Jb

    Jb Tsun in the streets

    I won't get two deep into this debate, but there have actually been studies that prove that readily available porn, of all types have decreased sex crimes all across the globe. {Source} It's a little dated but there are tons of other studies that prove the same as well. Now I can see how rape porn could cause someone that's mentally disabled (or just a loon) to try to act those on-screen actions, but they're so far in the minority they're practically irrelevant.
     
  6. Blazekickblaziken

    Blazekickblaziken Snarktastic Ditz

    http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/a-competition-of-suffering-male-vs.-female-rape

    Ok, first of all we need to get away from that whole "Men get raped too" mentality. This isn't a who suffers more contest. Men facing a stigma for rape and male rape being under reported are valid points that can be adressed without diminishing female rape experiences.

    Secondly, you seem to have skipped over the entire part where she differentiates sexism (her definition of it) and gender discrimination (what is genreally considered sexism). While I agree that the way she differentiated the two was sloppy, and possibly more harmful than good, she still makes a valid point that due to the power dynamics between the genders sexism by a woman against a man isn't the same as sexism by a man against a woman.

    Whike the subject might have been clumsily handled, it's still a necessary subject to discuss.
     
    Peter Quill and ellie like this.
  7. T-Bolt

    T-Bolt Electrifying.

    Well, in my country, after a particularly horrifying incident involving the gang-rape of a woman, and thanks to a intensive media campaign and wide-spread protests, rape was made punishable by death.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/India...rape-convicts-get-death/Article1-1121603.aspx

    Some may consider the death penalty as too harsh a punishment, but IMO, it's necessary since even the most twisted minds would think twice before raping someone now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  8. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone in this thread has said or even come close to implying that about you.

    Thank you so much for posting this, I could not agree more. I'd have a far easier time agreeing with the people in these threads if the posts didn;t all have subtle undertones of men blaming.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  9. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    This is why feminism can be too radical for many people, I think. When you see people holding banners saying "I'm a feminist because my college teaches how not to be raped, instead of don't rape", you can really see the problem at its core: prevention is demonized. That, and the majority knows not to rape. If 1% of people get raped every year, then 1% are doing the raping.

    Now, why is it ok to tell people to avoid going out at night, avoid dangerous parts of town, avoid using certain terms in certain ways around certain company, but it's absolutely unacceptable to suggest to a woman not to dress like you're skin would melt if you put on another inch of clothing?

    As a male, I'm honestly all for skimpy clothing. Most males are. That's why it's a thing, a fad; it's why clothes like that exist. That doesn't mean that they don't come with implications, like everything else you could wear. Nobody is saying, or implying, it's a woman's fault if she gets raped in the middle of the night in a sketchy neighborhood in a latex one piece, but I, at least, am suggesting that taking precautions is the way to go if you don't want to be harassed. You know that, in almost all scenarios, you are a better target if you are wearing less.

    Yes, it won't prevent it 100%. Yes, it's flawed and won't guarantee protection. That doesn't mean we should ignore the benefits of caution. It's common sense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  10. Blazekickblaziken

    Blazekickblaziken Snarktastic Ditz

    @Nightmareisalive

    Sorry if it seems like I jumped down your throa. Also I should've written "Men get raped more" rather than "Men get raped too". That was a mistake on my part. The problem is that once people start arguing about who gets raped more, the conversation veers away from how horrible rape is to who has it worse. That is not productive at all.

    @The Federation/ Profesco

    I can see where you're going with this. While covering up does NOTHING to prevent rape (as witnessed in muslim countries where women have to wear all sorts of conservative clothings such as burquas) it seems good logic to avoid situations that put you at risk for being raped. The problem is when you put this in the larger societal context. Talk with girls about what to do to avoid being raped are extremely common. They are the standard. But how many parents talk to their sons about what consent is, what it means, who is capable of consent, that rape is whenever sex occurs without consent. How many parents tell their sons before they go out, remember that if she's drunk she can't consent!

    Your parents might have those conversations with you, but the reality of the situation is that they are very uncommon. Now, you might say "Not my problem, I don't have little brothers, or a son, or whatever." But the reality of the situation is that no matter how much you disagree with victim blaming and how noble your intentions are, by exerting this pressure on women to stay safe from men, but not exerting the same pressure over men to not threaten women you are promotinga victim blaming culture. I will admit that it is a catch 22.
     
    ellie and Skiyomi like this.
  11. Qvalador

    Qvalador tainted holy water

    That's not the issue at hand, you know what I meant. Don't nitpick.

    You don't have to have literal rights taken away, although they are, elusively, I suppose. Job offers are often turned down only because the applicants are women. And anyway, human rights can extend past the ones in a lawbook. Women needed to be treated the same, no ifs and or buts about it.


    This is completely incorrect. There's a profound difference between men and women physically and mentally, that ranges from pain tolerance and heat resistance to being generally gentler and more nurturing. Human are sexually dimorphic creatures, so we have definable physical characteristics which set us apart from one another on the basis of gender.
    There are plenty of people doing this. Just because you don't doesn't mean there aren't people out there that see women as no more than sex slaves. Even if you haven't met any, they still exist. There are plenty of people that disrespect women in that kind of fashion.

    And you can argue a point without being an utter jerk about it. This isn't a thread about solutions to cosmic problems, we're just discussing it. You can't expect everyone on here to have some kind of world-changing point to bring up. I'm merely stating my suggestion, and there's nothing wrong with that. You have no right to tell me I'm wrong just because I'm not stating a solution to a problem that has plagued people for centuries.
     
    Peter Quill likes this.
  12. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    I would think that teaching potential rapists not to rape constitutes prevention, too. But, you know, that's a semantic argument.

    Well, serial rapists and gang rape throw that off, but I assume that's rounding.

    You know, I'm pretty sure the first piece of advice is even more... disruptive? (for lack of a better word atm) than the second. It seems like it's telling a woman to do/not do more than just suggesting she cover up more.

    Not that I think either advice is one that should be given, but the criminal mind is notoriously hard to tame. (Not that we shouldn't try.)

    I would consider teaching it arguably condescending, mind you.
     
  13. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    Ahh, you can call it prevention, but I seriously doubt it would contribute to the prevention of rape. I don't think a would-be rapist is going to think "I want to rape this girl, but you know, this seminar I was in said it as wrong...", because logical, moral people aren't going to even consider rape.

    I don't know, I'm quoting someone who linked this earlier in discussion. If it's a little more or a little less, I think my point still stands.

    It seems disruptive to women not because of I framed it, but because of how you interpreted it. I was referring to everyone when I was talking about avoiding certain actions and scenarios. I would honestly suggest everyone follow these guidelines. You don't have to tame the minds of depraved people, but use your own and use the best strategies to avoid them or make yourself less of a target.

    Teaching caution isn't condescending if we're talking about cars, theme parks, trains, planes, chemicals or knives, so why is it condescending to warn people of potential danger in anything else?

    What's far more condescending is the idea that you can teach a man not to rape. If you're got a sound moral foundation, it's something you understand on your own.

    The fact that rape occurs in Islamic countries where women completely cover up has nothing to do with whether dressing modestly offers any protection from being a target or not. There, there's nothing to compare modest dress to, so it's a useless comparison.

    Defining terms in discussion is perhaps the most important part of any conversation. If you think it's "nitpicking" you don't understand the basis of conversation.

    In the U.S. you don't have a right to a job, so I'll say again: in the U.S., women aren't denied any freedoms that a man might also pursue. You can bang the equal treatment drum all day long, rightfully so, too, but it doesn't prove anything in regards to women's freedoms. And if I didn't mention the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act I would be doing this discussion a dishonor.

    Doing what? You didn't mention what you were talking about. Sure, some people see women as sex slaves, but that's a tiny minority, even worldwide. Very, very few in the U.S. think of women as sex toys, and even fewer will admit it.

    If you think I'm being a jerk about it, you need to learn to handle criticism better. My response was logical and fair, and being that this is a debate forum, dissent is perfectly acceptable. Either understand that some people will think you're wrong or develop a bit tougher skin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  14. Qvalador

    Qvalador tainted holy water

    @The Federation

    That hadn't been brought to my attention, but even so... equal treatment, yeah. That's the biggest chunk of this problem, in my opinion.

    Most people don't see them solely as sex toys, perhaps I exaggerated a bit. Seeing them like that in any standpoint at all, however, is just plain wrong, no matter what standpoint you do it at.

    I don't think you're being a jerk... I exaggerated again, and I've had a bad day. I apologize. In any matter, though, you can get your point across just fine without being assertive about it-- that actually turns most people away, as I'm sure you know.
     
  15. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    "That"? You mean the LLA I linked to? Yeah, I agree with your assessment that equal treatment is the biggest issue. We're moving towards it, step by step, though.

    Yeah, I can see what you meant now. There are definitely some people who would have sexualized them to the point that they cease to be much more than an object in their mind, but they are few and far between. Society doesn't do a very good job with portrayal of women, but then they don't portray men very well either, do they? Women get sexualized, men get portrayed as utilities for higher living, and nobody wins.

    No problem, dude. I have my days too. I'm only assertive because I have an educated opinion, and want to get my point across, like most everyone else here. I think it's the best way to show where you stand and it opens you up to new ideas and revision of your old ideas.
     
  16. Blazekickblaziken

    Blazekickblaziken Snarktastic Ditz

    @ the federation

    http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_...e-counts-of-sexual-assault-of-2-elderly-women

    http://rochester.ynn.com/content/news/631356/nursing-home-worker-convicted-of-rape-to-be-released/

    http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130503/NEWS/305030076/?nclick_check=1

    Google nursing home rape. The truth of the matter is that while rape might have a sexual component, the psychology behind it isn't sexual. It's either about putting someone in their place or taking what is yours. That is to say, it's about power.

    Also anywoman can tell you that no matter what they wear, they are still targets for sexual harrasment. I've heard plenty of stories about school aged girls in school uniforms who still get harrased. There is no such thing as an outfit that "makes you less of a target". And even if there was, constantly pushing that on people is a special type of fearmongering where you take away a bit of a persons autonomy so that they can feel safe. While to you it might seemlike a small negligible price, in the big picture, it really isn't.
     
    The Admiral likes this.
  17. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    You're lowballing the stature of "teaching potential rapists to not rape" here.

    Why shouldn't we make an effort to retrain the criminal mind, though? What benefit does society really reap by allowing rapists to continue to exist?

    I'm going to use your car metaphor here. Automotive safety is a complex matter. Not only should you be wearing your seat belt and not be under the influence of substances, but there are many rules of defensive driving to follow, just for starters. Teaching a woman how not to get raped is like telling someone not to stand in front of a moving car because they might not stop for you.

    Nobody is born with morals. Morals must be taught.

    I've been saying this before for a while. To underline a specific part, though-- the sexual aspect, extant or not (this seems to be a thing that a lot of folks in this thread are hung up on), takes a back seat to the power aspect or the idea of "taking what's yours."
     
  18. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    Maybe, maybe not. I don't think I am, and there are no studies on the effect of rape seminars on listeners, to my knowledge, so there's no way to know.

    I don't think I've ever said not to make an attempt to rehabilitate criminals with a tendency for sexual assault of one nature or another. That said, I don't think an individual is going to have as much success avoiding a terrible situation if they rely on others to take care of the depraved people for them.

    No, it's nothing that simple at all. Teaching a woman (or girl, I suppose) how to avoid situations of sexual assault is comparable to, say, wearing bright colors at night so a car can see you better and avoid you. While it may not protect you all the time, you're going to have a better time avoiding a tragic death in a car accident, just like while taking precautions may help you avoid most/some bad situations, they certainly won't protect you from all of them.

    Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't mean to even insinuate that morals are intrinsic, because it's quite demonstrable that they aren't. What I meant when I said that was someone with the ability to commit such an atrocity, despite any moral instruction they've received previously, aren't likely as the adults they are to accept a new moral framework.

    It's a situation akin to teaching an old dog new tricks; it can be done, sometimes, with some dogs, but rarely and with difficulty.

    Umm, once again, I didn't make any claim that rape is purely sexual. I even provided evidence that clothing effects how the mind perceives people. It was your own article, if I remember correctly.

    Some people are fetishistic. Some people are desperate. Some people are almost less than human. That's why dressing properly isn't foolproof, as I've said before.

    What you are saying is borderline a moral outrage. Dressing in a way that makes the human mind perceive you differently, as less of a victim, can lower the chance of rape because your chance of being the target is smaller.

    Telling people that they would be stupid to wear black in the middle of the night while, say, trick-or-treating (for holiday flare) is not only considered anything but fear mongering, but is openly endorsed. We live in a government that we are contractually obligated to sacrifice autonomy for safety, everyday. Our entire world is a bargain, freedom for safety, in everything we do.

    No seatbelt? Or safety? No goggles in the lab? Or safety? Being forced to wear neon at night if you are going to be near streets or roads for long periods of time is a sacrifice, certainly, but a manageable one that endorses safety. Explain why taking the initiative to protect yourself is less moral than wearing something appropriate so you have a smaller likelihood of being raped?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  19. Steampunk

    Steampunk One Truth Prevails

    We should, I feel that to help anything we need to
    A) Attempt (how successful we are is another thing entirely) to "retain the criminal mind"
    B) Take steps to lower our risk

    Not either, or. Both.


    Yes, and while we can to some extent teach people them. Mental disease, substance abuse and alcohol can all hinder said taught morals.

    I don't doubt that there is a power factor here, and in some(maybe most) cases, there is a reason why the rapist chose rape over say, murder, theft etc.

    Agreed.

    Once again, agreed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  20. Blazekickblaziken

    Blazekickblaziken Snarktastic Ditz

    Ok, we do realize there is a BIG difference between someone ACCIDENTALLY running you over and someone PURPOSEFULLY harrasing you? The two things are not the same.
     

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