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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Peter Quill, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    But the problem comes with the fact that we as a society shouldn't have to have people operate under the premise that they're a "target" or that they should have to precaution themselves. Right now, that's just a fact of life sadly enough, however, we need to work on a way to make that sort of attitude to stay away. I find the entire semantic argument of whether you're more of a "target" or not sort of tiring so I hope you don't mind I take it in this direction.


    You missed the point. I'm saying that our society is already focused on that. The reason it's "not good enough for me" is because we're seeing this in practice and it isn't doing anything.
     
  2. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    Every single rape victim I know, from both genders, explicitly took as many precautions as they conceivably could prior to it occurring.

    It still happened. In every case. The guys (and in two cases, girls) involved did not have any medically diagnosed mental impairment. They independently came to the conclusion that rape was an acceptable act. When I say "all the precautions in the world wouldn't have stopped them" it's because all the precautions in the world wouldn't have stopped them, not because they could've averted horrifying psychological and physical trauma by adding one more person to a wolf pack at night or one more layer of clothing or one less shot of alcohol.

    One has proven wholly inefficient to the point of irrelevance at actually curbing the incidence of rape while the other hasn't even been attempted in any meaningful way.

    (With that having been said, I'm bowing out for the evening, because I need to be up for work in about five hours.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    ellie likes this.
  3. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure we have been stigmatizing rape and sexual harassment for many years now. It is far and beyond taboo.

    And me saying that it is probably a good idea not to have headphones on while walking home alone may not decrease the rate of people being raped, but it will help keep you as an individual safer.
     
  4. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    Sure, if coddling the perpetrators and decrying their loss of innocence with no mention of the victim (as happened with Steubenville, and as has happened with countless more cases stretching into antiquity) is your idea of stigmatising the actions themselves rather than their results, we've been doing this for years.

    Magical hypothetical female John Madden's likely going to get raped in this scenario regardless of whether she's wearing headphones, whether she's walking home alone, or even whether she's walking home at night. She's statistically no safer with all three of those "precautions" in place than without them.

    Building from this: media coverage (and in particular, which way they slant), especially in this current hypereditorialized ratings-war age, are predicated on the media themselves trying to predict what their audiences will want to see and hear. If what we're seeing from sexual assault/harassment and rape trials on a consistent basis is "but what about the PERPETRATORS? Their LIVES are RUINED! Aren't they the REAL VICTIMS?" that tells us their audiences are continuing to watch that coverage with that slant... and guess what that tells you about the audience?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  5. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    Then why are we still getting cases like in Steubenville where they tried to cover up the sexual assault? It doesn't matter how you feel our society perceives it or not, there are still sexual harassment and rape trials that aren't being treated properly and that's a problem.
     
  6. The Federation

    The Federation Why Not?

    Yeah, but that doesn't matter here, does it? What matters in the near term is that, whether you like it or not, society hasn't seen rape eliminated completely. As long as humans exist, I seriously doubt we can completely rid ourselves of this issue, so while it's noble to think nobody should ever be a target, it's not realist, at least right now.

    Yes, we need to work on public attitude. Yes, we need to work on the psychology of rapists. The semantics here completely changed the meaning what you understood, tiring or not, am I right?

    I don't know about that. Talking about whether something's working or not is hard to examine because we can only see the effects of what has happened and not what hasn't. I hold the honestly belief that preparation in any task will yield better results, even only occasionally.
     
  7. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Because it is impossible to quash this completely. Seeking a world without sexual harassment and rape is foolish. It will always be here, it will always exist. The only thing we can do is lessen it.

    The fact that they tried to cover up the sexual assault is evidence enough that society considers it wrong. If it wasn't they wouldn't try to hide it.

    looking at a clear minority of mishandled cases and attributing them to the situation as a whole is disingenuous.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2013
  8. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    The way Steubenville played out is not "a minority of [mishandled] rape cases", it's the norm given national media coverage.
     
    ellie likes this.
  9. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    Everyone is aware of this. It's just a matter of attacking a problem, and people obviously have different ways of viewing it.

    It's certainly evidence of people trying to protect rapists, therefor not giving them the proper justice. Then again, why even bother trying to protect them when a national news channel will simply talk about how dreadful it is for these young men to carry a record for the rest of their lives, completely discounting the victim? Because of course, if a channel like CNN will attempt to get us to feel guilty for a bunch of rapists, our society totally stigmatizes rape!
     
  10. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Says whom? I'd like you to show me a statistic showing that percentage of mishandled sexual assault cases compared to properly handled ones.
     
  11. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    We have gone over this before. But since you seem to be so intransigent on this, you may want to look up the incident in Maryville, Missouri. Or Steubenville.

    Yeah, those cover-ups, and the outcome of Steubenville -- especially going on about how oh noez the perps' lives are ruined!!!!!1111111111 sure scream out about how "far and beyond taboo" rape is in our society. Go look at how rape itself is treated in the mass media. When there isn't an outcry, nobody gives a ****. There was this one time when "comedian" Daniel Tosh made a "joke" about rape on stage, and when a woman from the audience said how it wasn't funny, he asked the audience if it would be funny if she were "raped by, like, five guys right now" -- which may actually be the exact words, distressingly. In a society where rape was "far and beyond taboo," he would at very least not have a career. That's just one example of how willing society is to just "look away." Is it, on paper, taboo? Yes, I would say so, but I would emphasize the words on paper.

    Or, really, let's go ahead and say this:

    A very close internet friend of mine was sexually assaulted. The response she got was to be brushed off. Even if she were not directly blamed, her case was still not treated as serious.

    THAT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.
     
  12. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Okay cool. But you don't get it.

    You cannot use this one example to try and paint society as a whole to adhering to this example.

    Should we fight this? Hell yes. but we shouldn't fight this with the expectation that we can eliminate it completely. And we certainly shouldn't flip **** when it does pop up and proceed to decry society of endorsing rape.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  13. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    Given that rape is at least a second-degree felony at the federal level and generally first-degree at the state level, any case of a confirmed assault that does not ultimately result in a conviction with jail time is "mishandled", and "100% of rape" in this post refers only to confirmed assaults:

    From the 2010 edition of the Justice Department's National Crime Victimization Survey; the same year's edition of the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports; the National Center for Policy Analysis's Crime and Punishment in America, published 1999; and an average of the 2002-2006 versions of the Justice Department's Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties dataset (available on the BJS site): only 46% of all rapes are even reported to police; 12% lead to arrests (so we're already at 88% mishandled); 9% are actually prosecuted (up to 91%); 5% are convicted (95%...); and just 3% actually spend any time in prison.

    The eventual outcome of the Steubenville case was that the perpetrators all wound up in that 3%; at the beginning of the case, that was not a guarantee.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  14. Peter Quill

    Peter Quill star-lord

    Have you even bothered to actually look up the stories of people who have tried to report their sexual assault? Have you actually gone around and done your own proper research to look into rape charges that haven't been done properly? There's a reason people are up in arms, there's a reason that people are saying it's a wide-spread societal issue and people have already linked previous examples in this thread. I'm not using Steubenville to paint our entire society's view on rape. It's just one of many, many stories that easily accessible to use as support right now.
     
    ellie likes this.
  15. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    No. You cannot use sexual assault charges not leading to convictions to increase the statistic, You knew what I meant and it was not that. There are far too many factors at play to attribute each one to people not taking the rape case seriously, especially when the usual evidence involved in rapes only lasts for a few days at most.

    That is a problem of evidence gathering technologies and sources, not society shunning the severity of rape cases.

    Actually I have, in my social justice courses. I even wrote a paper on it.

    The fact is, these cases are a clear minority of the whole, which are handled correctly. Let me be clear here, I acknowledge it is a problem. I just do not submit to the extreme viewpoint that this problem is indicative as societies stance on sexual assault.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  16. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    Typed like someone who didn't actually bother reading the first link, because the statistics in the NCVS (and its cousin survey in the UCR, which more explicitly delineates a difference between 'minor sexual assault' and 'forcible rape') have nothing to do with charges being pressed and everything to do with actual incidence of rape (as far as they're actually reported).
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  17. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    This thread just makes me ****ing sick. I quit. But I will leave you all with one last little bit to pick at.

    That's a strong statement.

    Back it up. Come on, give us the statistics that show that these cases are "a clear minority of the whole." And before you say anything about how we need to prove our side first, the onus probandi is on you. Our side has backed itself up time and time again. Just because you reject those doesn't mean it didn't happen.
     
    Peter Quill likes this.
  18. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    Which is funny as your first link also reports quite a large drop in the rate of sexual assaults and rape since 2001.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  19. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    It also reported a 50% increase in that same rate for 2009-10 which all but wiped out that drop in one go.
     
  20. Eterna

    Eterna Well-Known Member

    I may be blind, but I cannot find where it says that. I did find this though:

     

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