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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

This will be my final post in this thread.

Read this whole paper, if then you still don't understand, I will simply have to concede that I lack the proper debating skills to communicate feminism effectively.

http://www.umass.edu/wost/syllabi/spring06/johnson.pdf

My advice? Do yourself a favor and take a gender studies class. If I alone had the tried and true method to give someone their "feminist awakening", I'd be a nobel prize winner.
 
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My advice? Do yourself a favor and take a gender studies class. If I alone had the tried and true method to give someone their "feminist awakening", I'd be a nobel prize winner.
It's just more of the same. Another Allan Johnson taking feminism to the next level of absurdity, where patriarchy is simply a gender binary system with harmful consequences spread among both genders. Another Anita Sarkeesian, who thinks Mario is the demon from hell come to take away what social egalitarianism we have accumulated through social advance.

The day feminism realizes it's outdated and unnecessary and focuses on the gender roles that actually impact society and the actual causes of those gender roles (not Mario, or Sonic, or Link) is the day I will take them seriously. Of course, when that day does come, I believe I can expect to see a name change and a distinct lack of people accusing men of being rape apologists or "mansplainers" or "MRAs".
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
Doesn't Anita say the games she talks about aren't bad, they just help a bad message along? I don't think she's ever demonized a video game.

The fact that she's getting death threats because people are convinced she's brainwashing Joss Whedon and the owner of Doublefine games to support her shows that a lot of these people really just want to demonize her more than anything.
 
has anyone seen this yet? http://undercovercolors.com/

it came up on my local news about a week ago. it's a nail polish that helps detect date rape drugs. it changes color when you swirl your finger in your drink. i honestly think it's a great idea! we can take steps on our own to prevent these things from happening.
 
Doesn't Anita say the games she talks about aren't bad, they just help a bad message along? I don't think she's ever demonized a video game.
She has said on the record that these games perpetuate a patriarchal power structure. Video games, works of fiction acknowledged as such, with simple or tried-and-true motivators. She also said that games where you shoot other players are "gross".

The fact that she's getting death threats because people are convinced she's brainwashing Joss Whedon and the owner of Doublefine games to support her shows that a lot of these people really just want to demonize her more than anything.
Every big personality from any side of the spectrum gets death threats.
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
She has said on the record that these games perpetuate a patriarchal power structure. Video games, works of fiction acknowledged as such, with simple or tried-and-true motivators. She also said that games where you shoot other players are "gross".
Yeah, she didn't say the games were bad. There's a content warning before every video that says this.

Every big personality from any side of the spectrum gets death threats.
That doesn't make it okay in the slightest. When people are hunting down your parents address and threatening to rape you things are not okay.
 
Yeah, she didn't say the games were bad. There's a content warning before every video that says this.
"I'm not a gamer, because shooting people and ripping off their heads is gross." This woman could care less about a cause or truth or video games; she has found a way to monetize her degree and is taking full advantage of that.

But, does she even make sense there? She criticizes the games for perpetuating sexist stereotypes, but she likes the games? Either she is tacitly admitting that games aren't affecting society at a meaningful level or doesn't care about her movement nearly as much as she says she does. And these are just the criticisms of her if I give her the possibility that games are sexist in any way as a whole.

That doesn't make it okay in the slightest. When people are hunting down your parents address and threatening to rape you things are not okay.
You want to assign a reason for death threats beyond the reality that she is extremely well-known and outspoken, which you can't do if you want to retain your integrity. When I say that everyone of that popularity and resolution receives death threats we both know I wasn't saying it's fine that that's happening, and it's not ok for you to insist on framing clearly innocuous statements as ill intended.
 
Yeah, she didn't say the games were bad. There's a content warning before every video that says this.

That doesn't make it okay in the slightest. When people are hunting down your parents address and threatening to rape you things are not okay.
I agree. Anita's videos are not as pernicious as the mass corners of the internet would insist. Honestly, her videos were eye-opening to me, and I'm a cisgendered, heterosexual male. Learning about feminism from the cultural lens of gaming can enlighten new viewers, and receiving death threats is never cool in my books. Furthermore, the gaming industry does have a bad record for their treatment of women, as evinced by Princess Peach and games like Grand Theft Auto, but Anita also points out that games like Portal which promote healthier views of women also exist. And as with other forms of multimedia, critiquing and discussing helps develop the medium to reach new acmes and standards of greater heights. It's a good thing overall, even though I don't always agree with her more nitpicky points. Is she a little self-righteous? Yes. Does she deserve to be treated like a martyr or a pariah? Probably not.
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
"I'm not a gamer, because shooting people and ripping off their heads is gross." This woman could care less about a cause or truth or video games; she has found a way to monetize her degree and is taking full advantage of that.

But, does she even make sense there? She criticizes the games for perpetuating sexist stereotypes, but she likes the games? Either she is tacitly admitting that games aren't affecting society at a meaningful level or doesn't care about her movement nearly as much as she says she does. And these are just the criticisms of her if I give her the possibility that games are sexist in any way as a whole.
Well she never meant to go deep into feminism topics, just give a base to help people draw their own conclusions, the kickstarter said this from the beginning. She just didn't expect that most vocal gamers are sexist manchildren.

You want to assign a reason for death threats beyond the reality that she is extremely well-known and outspoken, which you can't do if you want to retain your integrity. When I say that everyone of that popularity and resolution receives death threats we both know I wasn't saying it's fine that that's happening, and it's not ok for you to insist on framing clearly innocuous statements as ill intended.
She's getting death threats because she's hurting their precious video games, and many people in the industry support her. There is a huge sexist thing with the death threats here, how many guys on the internet get death threats where people post their address for everyone to see and tell them to rape them to death? To say this isn't a sexist thing by angry video game manchildren is just being ignorant, and passing it on to "Oh everyone well-known and outspoken gets death threats" is one of the reasons people don't do more against this stuff.
 

The Admiral

solid state survivor
But, does she even make sense there? She criticizes the games for perpetuating sexist stereotypes, but she likes the games? Either she is tacitly admitting that games aren't affecting society at a meaningful level or doesn't care about her movement nearly as much as she says she does. And these are just the criticisms of her if I give her the possibility that games are sexist in any way as a whole.
You do realize that it is fully possible to enjoy problematic media while still admitting that they're problematic, right?

Joss Whedon
Hadn't heard about this. Then again, Joss Whedon's works are also pretty problematic. I would dig out the analysis, but it was posted on Tumblr, so clearly it can't have any merit whatsoever.
 
Well she never meant to go deep into feminism topics, just give a base to help people draw their own conclusions, the kickstarter said this from the beginning. She just didn't expect that most vocal gamers are sexist manchildren.
Disagreeing with her is not sexist. Saying she is wrong on almost all fronts, calling her out on her lies, none of the is sexist.

There is a huge sexist thing with the death threats here, how many guys on the internet get death threats where people post their address for everyone to see and tell them to rape them to death?
The filth that aim these death threats at others do so with the intent of mentally wounding the reader. Similarities can be drawn to atheistic Youtubers who are told they will burn forever, die pathetically, and wishes and threats of death. Sure, it's sexist, but that's because she is well known and outspoken.

...passing it on to "Oh everyone well-known and outspoken gets death threats" is one of the reasons people don't do more against this stuff.
Are you serious? What can be done "against this stuff"? Anons sending death threats is a bad part of an unmoderated internet, and I don't want to sacrifice the freedoms and the good that comes with a lack of moderation to cut out stuff that can be ignored or blocked. She only allowed those messages through in the first place for pity money.

You do realize that it is fully possible to enjoy problematic media while still admitting that they're problematic, right?
She was not a gamer before this series. She admits she was "off and on" with games, and suddenly with 150k is on the line she was a "gamer her whole life".
 
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bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
Disagreeing with her is not sexist. Saying she is wrong on almost all fronts, calling her out on her lies, none of the is sexist.
Yeah, that isn't sexist, it's just kind of generally wrong.
The filth that aim these death threats at others do so with the intent of mentally wounding the reader. Similarities can be drawn to atheistic Youtubers who are told they will burn forever, die pathetically, and wishes and threats of death. Sure, it's sexist, but that's because she is well known and outspoken.
Who are these people who are getting the same amount of death threats, and fairly serious ones too? Dumb youtube comments are one thing, people hunting down you and your parents addresses to give to everyone on the internet are two completely different things. You can't imagine what it's like to fear for your safety like that.


Are you serious? What can be done "against this stuff"? Anons sending death threats is a bad part of an unmoderated internet, and I don't want to sacrifice the freedoms and the good that comes with a lack of moderation to cut out stuff that can be ignored or blocked. She only allowed those messages through in the first place for pity money.
The internet needs moderation. It doesn't have to be any complete control or anything, but you can't just have the internet run wild. We've seen what people are willing to do when they think they can't get caught, and that needs to be stopped.
She was not a gamer before this series. She admits she was "off and on" with games, and suddenly with 150k is on the line she was a "gamer her whole life".
To be fair what are the qualifications to being a gamer in the first place? She's played video games, does that not count?
 
Who are these people who are getting the same amount of death threats, and fairly serious ones too? You can't imagine what it's like to fear for your safety like that.
What, and you can? People have hunted down your address? Don't get high and mighty when you have no concept of an experience like that either. Atheist YT channels, especially ones featuring belligerent and annoying people like theamazingatheist, see death threats for their strong opinions. It's not just this idiot, it's all loud people.

The internet needs moderation. It doesn't have to be any complete control or anything, but you can't just have the internet run wild. We've seen what people are willing to do when they think they can't get caught, and that needs to be stopped.
Advocating for moderation of the internet is advocating to remove the last free space we have as a species. The internet is moderated in specific sites. If you want moderation, go to those sites and leave the freedom of others alone.

To be fair what are the qualifications to being a gamer in the first place? She's played video games, does that not count?
Placing games a few times in the past does not make a person a gamer, just like shooting a squirrel doesn't make you a hunter or riding a bike once doesn't make you a biker. It's more of a hobby you adopt than something you do once in a while.
 
You do realize that it is fully possible to enjoy problematic media while still admitting that they're problematic, right?
Quoted for posterity. Anita Sarkeesian does have an in-depth knowledge of games, and I'd wager that is because she likes many games. You wouldn't try to fix or critique something that you don't like. The opposite of love isn't hate, remember; it's indifference. And although she may not be a prolific "gamer", to use the term, she is a member of the gaming industry. Books and movies both have been held under similar scrutiny before. What she's doing is nothing new and in fact benefits the gaming industry, propelling it forward into more balanced portrayals of gender.

Personally, I don't argue for censorship of the Internet, because I'm usually opposed to censorship of most kinds and that's a whole different kettle of fish altogether. However, I would entreat and ask people to stop sending her death threats. Certain mods of behaviour are unacceptable in all forms of social interaction, and that includes sending death threats online. The Internet needs to pause and reevaluate its parameters and paradigms of typical, online interactions. For example, the trolls bandying Zelda Williams to release details about her father's death, sending her death threats and photoshopped pictures of her father's corpse, was too far and had forced her off social media. While Anita Sarkeesian hasn't done that yet, she has received photoshopped images of her, and I don't think that's appropriate. If you wouldn't do a certain act in real life, then don't do it on the online either.

Why? It makes the Internet look bad. All of us have blood on our hands and mud on our faces whenever somebody threatens to slice Anita Sarkeesian's throat. These actions malign us further and do not ameliorate the common perception of the Internet as a nefarious place. For the sake of making us look better, we should behave like adults and try to refrain from malicious and borderline illegal threats.

That's my two cents on this matter.
 
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The Admiral

solid state survivor
Placing games a few times in the past does not make a person a gamer, just like shooting a squirrel doesn't make you a hunter or riding a bike once doesn't make you a biker. It's more of a hobby you adopt than something you do once in a while.
And who are you to say that you're only a gamer if you've played X amount of times, or if you otherwise fit specific parameters? Do we really need to bring this kind of elitism into this thread?

Personally, I don't argue for censorship of the Internet, because I'm usually opposed to censorship of most kinds and that's a whole different kettle of fish altogether. However, I would entreat and ask people to stop sending her death threats. Certain mods of behaviour are unacceptable in all forms of social interaction, and that includes sending death threats online. The Internet needs to pause and reevaluate its parameters and paradigms of typical, online interactions. For example, the trolls bandying Zelda Williams to release details about her father's death, sending her death threats and photoshopped pictures of her father's corpse, was too far and had forced her off social media. While Anita Sarkeesian hasn't done that yet, she has received photoshopped images of her, and I don't think that's appropriate. If you wouldn't do a certain act in real life, then don't do it on the online either.

Why? It makes the Internet look bad. All of us have blood on our hands and mud on our faces whenever somebody threatens to slice Anita Sarkeesian's throat. These actions malign us further and do not ameliorate the common perception of the Internet as a nefarious place. For the sake of making us look better, we should behave like adults and try to refrain from malicious and borderline illegal threats.

That's my two cents on this matter.
It is, I believe, illegal to threaten to kill, etc. someone in real life -- why should it not be on the Internet?

aaaaaaaaaaand free speech argument in 3... 2...
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
What, and you can? People have hunted down your address? Don't get high and mighty when you have no concept of an experience like that either. Atheist YT channels, especially ones featuring belligerent and annoying people like theamazingatheist, see death threats for their strong opinions. It's not just this idiot, it's all loud people.
No, but you're the one saying it's not as bad of a thing. I haven't been through it, but I'm saying I can see how bad it can be, as it's clearly an act that makes you fear for your safety.

Advocating for moderation of the internet is advocating to remove the last free space we have as a species. The internet is moderated in specific sites. If you want moderation, go to those sites and leave the freedom of others alone.
Dear Christ really? Remember when reddit didn't have as tough moderation and they had a child porn subreddit? People can have no moderation when they're deserving of it, and we've far from proved we're capable of it.

Placing games a few times in the past does not make a person a gamer, just like shooting a squirrel doesn't make you a hunter or riding a bike once doesn't make you a biker. It's more of a hobby you adopt than something you do once in a while.
Most game developers don't play games. They play the games they make, but they often don't have the time to play other games. Does that mean that they aren't qualified to make them or talk about them?
 

Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
The most explicit definition for patriarchy given by the text is:
Patriarchy's defining elements are its male-dominated, male-identified, and male-centered character, but this is just the beginning. At its core, patriarchy is a set of symbols and ideas that make up a culture embodied by everything from the content of everyday conversation to literature and film. Patriarchal culture includes ideas about the nature of things, including men, women, and humanity, with manhood and masculinity most closely associated with being human and womanhood and femininity relegated to the marginal position of "other."
But this differs from the previously used definition, "a society in which men have more power than women," unless you also pick a fitting definition of "power" (like sociologists sometimes do). However, such a broad definition of "power" would dilute its meaning and make it unintuitive because it would no longer be power that can be wielded directly by people.

The problem concerning the word "marginal" is also very obvious.
 
No, but you're the one saying it's not as bad of a thing.
Lolno, please stop.

Dear Christ really? Remember when reddit didn't have as tough moderation and they had a child porn subreddit? People can have no moderation when they're deserving of it, and we've far from proved we're capable of it.
The internet IS moderated as far as selling drugs or distributing child porn. That's already a thing. Try again.

Most game developers don't play games. They play the games they make, but they often don't have the time to play other games. Does that mean that they aren't qualified to make them or talk about them?
Are there statistics or a quote or something that would back up that claim? Most people that go into game development that I have talked to are avid gamers. People don't make games if they don't enjoy playing them and the culture that surrounds it.
 
The internet IS moderated as far as selling drugs or distributing child porn. That's already a thing. Try again.
I would argue that threatening to kill somebody by sending that person graphically violent, photoshopped pictures of the person's corpse can be as pernicious as drug distribution. The point that Sogeking was making is that some moderation would not be inappropriate. Although I personally disagree with censorship, I do understand his perspective: the vituperative and vitriolic behaviour sprouting from certain corners of the Internet has regressed into deplorable and borderline illegal actions. Don't say something or do something that you wouldn't do in real life, frankly.

And the term "gamer" is subjective anyway. Just as you can have professional film critics and amateur film critics, you can run a whole gamut in the gaming world, ranging from the hardcore gamer to the casual gamer. Implying that a certain group of people have more of a "right" to analyse a work would be ludicrous, since every other form of multimedia has various of discourse open to people of all levels of knowledge and has in fact benefitted from such discussions. For example, I'm not a book critic, but that doesn't that I should be barred from analysing and talking about my postmodern interpretation of Hamlet or discussing my Marxist readings on Citizen Kane. Even though some of Anita's criticisms may seem nitpicky, the gaming industry benefits as a whole. Why? Because this level of discussion elevates games as a form of multimedia to the level of books and films, allowing people to take them "seriously". And why is that a bad thing?
 
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