John Madden
resident policy guy
Table 1, fourth row, fifth column.
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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys
- Thread starter Peter Quill
- Start date
Table 1, fourth row, fifth column.
Eterna
Well-Known Member
Cool, but did you read what I pasted? It kind of shoots down your point.
Blazekickblaziken
Snarktastic Ditz
Sorry to respond so late to this, but the discussion took off when I went to bed.
You also seem to fail to notice thet the intent of the reflective tape and the modest clothing are complete opposites. The reflective tape is so that you are seen and the driver takes the necessary precautions to not run you over, while dressing modestly is supposed to be some sort of camouflage so they aren't seen. One reafirms a person, the other one doesn't.
CrystalSaurTower
Well-Known Member
I think he means it in a way like not going to a dark alley at midnight in a shady neighborhood where murders and muggings are well known. Yes, a person should be able to walk where ever they may please at whatever time they please. But the fact that you have a lower chance of being attacked if you go to that place in the daytime, or with a friend or two doesn't change, and is something that could actually stop someone from being raped, which shouldn't be seen as anti-woman in any way IMO.
Personally I think the best way to protect yourself is to be aware of your enviroment and the people that are there, take precautions such as power in numbers if you know you're in a place you could be raped, and most importantly, take some basic self defense classes/carry a tazer in case it actually does happen.
Search_Ops_TeamD
ShaggySmurf
We, men, were used to being the stronger sex, used to being in charge, used to getting our way. Natural behavior that just didn't go away as we evolved, and by consequence, consumed us. We were consumed by greed; power, land, worship and the most recent, money. We forgot about what was important, or rather who. We stopped paying attention to the needs of women, and in return, they were consumed by loneliness and then hatred. This is all in the big picture, a little exaggerated with feeling, just bare with me. Women then looked to themselves for support and to better themselves they decided to get things done on their own. Now, in a weird and twisted sense, we men want to be forgiven but don't have the courage to ask. We want to mend our mistakes, but don't want look back at what happened. We want you, women, back, but are afraid to admit it. We don't want you to become independent from us, because it would mean losing you. Does that sound right? I bet it does. I believe feminism comes somewhere around here, and gave way to the following:
Disconnection Nowadays it seems that women and men are disconnected from each other more than ever. I go through my daily routine, just going with the flow, and then suddenly I see an attractive woman. Don't get me wrong, I don't stare. If I'm mesmerized, I'll look discretely and go about my business. But every time, it hits me, why does it feel unnatural to just go an interact, respectfully of course, with this woman. It feels like we avoid each other. I believe this disconnection between us could be the cause behind such an increase in acts of "retaliation" (as one friend called it) against feminist movements. It seems as if we grow apart from being men and women, and grow closer to being different species. Maybe that's too much of a metaphor but still, you get what I saying.
Misinterpretation of a misinterpretation Obvious fact. People that look at feminism as an attempt to change the social standard. The ones that just want things to stay as they are. It's as simple as that. They don't want change. I believe even some women are against feminism, correct? It's not actually about women becoming more powerful or superior, it's about women changing the standard enough to change society itself. You have to consider that acts of feminism will affect these old customs. And these people have as much right to keep their way of life as it is, if it they prefer it that way. The misinterpretation is that women want to change society as a whole. Not the case. This raises tension between these societies and feminist groups.
The bad apples Regardless of feminism having the right motives, it gave way to a few bad apples; women that use it to get their way. Women that take advantage of feminist demand for equality combined with the innocence of "being the weaker sex", for example, to frame a man of a violent act to camouflage her actual motives, or, as someone mentioned before, a women getting her way over the custody of a child, simply because she's the mother, or the famous situation: A man hits a woman, he's an animal; women hits man, she was probably defending herself because he was being an animal. Then you have your extremist. Women that just hate men. I believe this was mentioned before. Now the man version of the bad apples are the ones that say this: "'You want to be a genie, fine, you can be one. But with everything that it comes with.' That means you get all the perks, 100%, but also all the misfortune, 100%. If you strike a man, he's gonna strike you back as if you were any other man. You will have to use the same restroom as men. Your perks as women will not apply anymore." Another retaliation caused by misinterpretation, it being that women want to take everything away from men. This didn't sit right with feminists. No preference for any one particular gender. Obviously this won't happen, and I don't think men actually mean this. Either way, women will not let go of these "perks", no matter how strong their motives are for equality. I tell you this because, out of curiosity, I have asked women if it's worth it, and obviously it's not. And they didn't like the idea of a coed public restroom.
One dilemma leads to another. A possible solution to something will give way to new problems. Men forgot about women, and women stood up for their rights. Men "retaliated" for their "uprising" and feminism arose. Eventually these flaws will be solved, but will give way to another problem. I guess rape culture would be one of those. But I just read about this subject and I really don't believe what I'm reading. Societies that justify such acts of violence? I have never heard of such a thing. Unbelievable. This problem is different. It's justification for lessening people, not just women, that want change. Stupid people that develop a stupid way of controlling things they don't like. I believe that's the reason why feminism hasn't had any success with this problem. Because it's not just about lessening a woman, it's about lessening a group of people or another culture. Unfortunately, women are the most affected because of obvious reasons, being the "easy target" (sorry, I couldn't find a simpler way to put that).
Disconnection Nowadays it seems that women and men are disconnected from each other more than ever. I go through my daily routine, just going with the flow, and then suddenly I see an attractive woman. Don't get me wrong, I don't stare. If I'm mesmerized, I'll look discretely and go about my business. But every time, it hits me, why does it feel unnatural to just go an interact, respectfully of course, with this woman. It feels like we avoid each other. I believe this disconnection between us could be the cause behind such an increase in acts of "retaliation" (as one friend called it) against feminist movements. It seems as if we grow apart from being men and women, and grow closer to being different species. Maybe that's too much of a metaphor but still, you get what I saying.
Misinterpretation of a misinterpretation Obvious fact. People that look at feminism as an attempt to change the social standard. The ones that just want things to stay as they are. It's as simple as that. They don't want change. I believe even some women are against feminism, correct? It's not actually about women becoming more powerful or superior, it's about women changing the standard enough to change society itself. You have to consider that acts of feminism will affect these old customs. And these people have as much right to keep their way of life as it is, if it they prefer it that way. The misinterpretation is that women want to change society as a whole. Not the case. This raises tension between these societies and feminist groups.
The bad apples Regardless of feminism having the right motives, it gave way to a few bad apples; women that use it to get their way. Women that take advantage of feminist demand for equality combined with the innocence of "being the weaker sex", for example, to frame a man of a violent act to camouflage her actual motives, or, as someone mentioned before, a women getting her way over the custody of a child, simply because she's the mother, or the famous situation: A man hits a woman, he's an animal; women hits man, she was probably defending herself because he was being an animal. Then you have your extremist. Women that just hate men. I believe this was mentioned before. Now the man version of the bad apples are the ones that say this: "'You want to be a genie, fine, you can be one. But with everything that it comes with.' That means you get all the perks, 100%, but also all the misfortune, 100%. If you strike a man, he's gonna strike you back as if you were any other man. You will have to use the same restroom as men. Your perks as women will not apply anymore." Another retaliation caused by misinterpretation, it being that women want to take everything away from men. This didn't sit right with feminists. No preference for any one particular gender. Obviously this won't happen, and I don't think men actually mean this. Either way, women will not let go of these "perks", no matter how strong their motives are for equality. I tell you this because, out of curiosity, I have asked women if it's worth it, and obviously it's not. And they didn't like the idea of a coed public restroom.
One dilemma leads to another. A possible solution to something will give way to new problems. Men forgot about women, and women stood up for their rights. Men "retaliated" for their "uprising" and feminism arose. Eventually these flaws will be solved, but will give way to another problem. I guess rape culture would be one of those. But I just read about this subject and I really don't believe what I'm reading. Societies that justify such acts of violence? I have never heard of such a thing. Unbelievable. This problem is different. It's justification for lessening people, not just women, that want change. Stupid people that develop a stupid way of controlling things they don't like. I believe that's the reason why feminism hasn't had any success with this problem. Because it's not just about lessening a woman, it's about lessening a group of people or another culture. Unfortunately, women are the most affected because of obvious reasons, being the "easy target" (sorry, I couldn't find a simpler way to put that).
Blazekickblaziken
Snarktastic Ditz
@CrystalSaurTower
I was aware that he meant dressing modestly as a preventative measure. The fact stands that it DOES NOT work. Not to mention that you are more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by stranger. Also that differentiation was made because he was arguing that promoting modest clothing as a preventative measure infringes on your personal freedom no more than promoting reflective strips at night so you don't get run over. Which isn't the same thing at all. It also isn't akin to wearing a helmet when riding a bicycle. At all.
@Dragon8907master
Ok, first of all, men weren't always in positions of power over women everywhere. Often in native american cultures, the genders would be roughly equal. Also the human races is composoed of humans who biologically are roughly 50% male and 50% female (although there are slightly more women and there are some people with genetic conditions that confuse biological sex a little). The human race ISN'T composed or men and their magical mystical unicorn companions with vaginas wich must be protected, aka women.
First, let's get this part out of the way, talking about how women are complimentary to men and how they're supposed to be loved and protected and so-on and so-forth, is bull. That's a cheap way to confuse the issue and has been used to deny women FULL equality, because supposedly the sexes are already equal, they're just equal in different ways. This attitude has been used to deny women their autonomy because "they need to be protected". Also, this romanticizing of "how things used to be" completely ignores how women were historically considered PROPERTY, and marriage was just an exchange of goods. Not to mention it ignores spousal beatings and spousal rape.
Secondly, you misunderstand what rape culture IS. rape culture ISN'T people telling men to go rape women. Rape culture ISN'T society going YAY RAPE!
Rapeculture is society telling women that if they like sex, they're a lesser person. Rape culture is telling men that they are entitled to sex (I.e. the friendzone phenomenon). Rape culture is society arguing what constitutes a "real" rape (answer? sex without consent. period.). Rape culture is all these rape jokes that dismiss rape. Rape culture is asking the victim of rape what she was wearing when she got raped. Rape culture is lamenting the stained future of rapists.
When you add all of these things together, youget a society that, even though they say rape is bad and evil, fosters, and even empowers rapists, while dismissing .
Over all, while you seem to understand what feminism is, you fail to understand WHY it is, and how it fits into the world as a whole.
I was aware that he meant dressing modestly as a preventative measure. The fact stands that it DOES NOT work. Not to mention that you are more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by stranger. Also that differentiation was made because he was arguing that promoting modest clothing as a preventative measure infringes on your personal freedom no more than promoting reflective strips at night so you don't get run over. Which isn't the same thing at all. It also isn't akin to wearing a helmet when riding a bicycle. At all.
@Dragon8907master
Ok, first of all, men weren't always in positions of power over women everywhere. Often in native american cultures, the genders would be roughly equal. Also the human races is composoed of humans who biologically are roughly 50% male and 50% female (although there are slightly more women and there are some people with genetic conditions that confuse biological sex a little). The human race ISN'T composed or men and their magical mystical unicorn companions with vaginas wich must be protected, aka women.
First, let's get this part out of the way, talking about how women are complimentary to men and how they're supposed to be loved and protected and so-on and so-forth, is bull. That's a cheap way to confuse the issue and has been used to deny women FULL equality, because supposedly the sexes are already equal, they're just equal in different ways. This attitude has been used to deny women their autonomy because "they need to be protected". Also, this romanticizing of "how things used to be" completely ignores how women were historically considered PROPERTY, and marriage was just an exchange of goods. Not to mention it ignores spousal beatings and spousal rape.
Secondly, you misunderstand what rape culture IS. rape culture ISN'T people telling men to go rape women. Rape culture ISN'T society going YAY RAPE!
Rapeculture is society telling women that if they like sex, they're a lesser person. Rape culture is telling men that they are entitled to sex (I.e. the friendzone phenomenon). Rape culture is society arguing what constitutes a "real" rape (answer? sex without consent. period.). Rape culture is all these rape jokes that dismiss rape. Rape culture is asking the victim of rape what she was wearing when she got raped. Rape culture is lamenting the stained future of rapists.
When you add all of these things together, youget a society that, even though they say rape is bad and evil, fosters, and even empowers rapists, while dismissing .
Over all, while you seem to understand what feminism is, you fail to understand WHY it is, and how it fits into the world as a whole.
CrystalSaurTower
Well-Known Member
How are you proving it doesn't work? Even if most rapes are not crimes of passion, such as by someone you know for example, I don't see how it would not prevent those who could by fueled to commit a crime of passion in a place where it would be easier to do that, such as in a back alley.
Any examples about how blatant, pro-female sexism such as the societal expectation that whenever there's a life threatening situation, the man must always stay back so that the women can go before him? I'm asking for modern day examples of how women are being denied rights due to someone trying to protect them. I'd say things like women being excused from equal acts of crime/violence is due to less to the fact women are thought of as less, but the deep stereotyping of mens' roles in society.
I've got some big disagreements with your points here.
1. Having a completely stupid opinion that women are lesser if they have sex does not equal rape. That's a double standard, the same one that says if men don't have sex with women they're also lesser people. It is sexist, yes, but it's not in any way a widespread belief and hardly an affirmation that rape is ok.
2. The "friendzone phenomenon" also has nothing to do with being entitled! A guy has a crush on a girl, they have that unsure if she/he's interested in me phase, she turns him down and says that she just wants to be friends. Who are you to tell him it's wrong for him to feel bummed out that he was just rejected by someone he had feelings for, and that for him not to want to have a friendship with someone he clearly thinks of romantically and on a deeper level than friendship be wracked with the pain of knowing they can never be together when he's around her.
He's not saying he's entitled to anything. He's simply did the best thing he thought would win her over (being nice, hence the whole "why do girls not like nice guys" thing too), and after being rejected, wondering where he went wrong. Why are you equiting love and acceptance to sex? Not to mention, I find it odd you think most men are completely divorced from any sort of love and sensetivity when courting a women, that they're all just mindless sex machines. That screams sexism.
Some people just don't want to be friends with people who have romantically rejected them. To not see this seems to imply a complete lack of empathy just to prove a point that women owe them something despite the fact society constantly reinforces the fact that women have zero obligation to do so.
3. Yes, that is the defenition of rape. That's not what people are arguing about. They're wondering whether or not a women says "yes" when shes drunk, has sex with someone, then wakes up not knowing could be considered rape. They're wondering whether or not two teenagers having consensual sex, then in the middle of sex one of them wants to stop but the other keeps going should deserve the same punishment as predmeditated rape at knifepoint. I imagine they're also trying to find better ways to prove rape, as often times there is so little evidence to prove or deny a rape besides the rape victim/rapists testimonies.
Rape is not a black and white issue, and there is plenty to discuss about it, but I don't think the few idiots who make a passing remark about what "real" rape should be shouldn't be representative of an entire culture.
4. Because jokes obviously = reality, right? I mean, there's been so much more racism since everyone started joking about how absurd racism is, right?
Humor allows us to acknowledge these things and often times allow people to acknowledge what's going on in the world and how wrong it is. Nobody is going to let a rape happen just because they laughed at a rape joke. Not to mention, where are "all these rape jokes" anyway? Most people consider rape jokes to be untasteful anyway, thus being why they're used mostly for shock value. You know, as in shocking, something you don't hear often, something that is not often discussed because it is very universally considered to be something too serious to joke about.
5. So questions = rape culture? Trying to see if there's any correlation between clothing choices and rape is considered misogynist to you? Obviously it doesn't matter what she wore, she didn't deserve to be raped in anyway. But until proven otherwise that doesn't mean clothing had nothing to do with it.
6. I can't think of a single person who would be sad about a rapist's future. You can't take isolated cases from a small town and apply them to the culture of 313 million people.
Now, I can see someone who being worried about someone whose been falsely accused of rape, seeing as how that can carry a stigma that can virtually make him unhireable and an "assumed rapist" by almost anyone who looks up the fact he was persecuted regardless of the verdict.
Actually, I'd say that to yourself.
You've failed to show how any of the points you mentioned above are pervading elements in our culture that somehow encourage people to rape. You've simply stated "this is the truth" without showing how these things would in ANY way make some SECRETLY believe that rape and rapists are socially acceptable in a society that PUBLICALLY DESPISES them.
If you can show me how any of those things you mentioned are present in peoples lives and influence them to rape or approve of rape, then I'll gladly change my mind.
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Blazekickblaziken
Snarktastic Ditz
How I hate repeating myself.
Rape & Sexual harrasment ARE NOT about sex. Not even a little bit. Never. What you wear can't protect you from rape.
Link: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp#B139
A quote from the conclusion:
If you still think dressing modestly is an effective way to prevent this, then by all means, post a link that supports your point.
Ok, that was a response to Dragon's apparent nostalgia about how we've moved away from traditional gender roles, and how things used to be better when they were in place. He was saying how feminism came to rise because men "forgot" about women. Point I was trying to make is, that is bull. That is not how things went down.
Not what i said. First of all, we're not talking about one individual person. We're talking about society as a whole. Secondly it's not about a = b. We're talking about SEVERAL different attitudes, which when put together creates an environment where rape is more likely to happen. How much clearer an explanation would you like?
http://groupthink.jezebel.com/once-upon-a-time-friendzone-simply-meant-the-girl-i-1181201935
The link is largely irrelevant, it's just where I got this following definition from:
My personal understanding is that the mythical friend zone is a situation in which a guy (or girl, but usually guy) has unstated, unrequited feelings for another person, and sticks around doing nice things (read, being a friend) under the impression that a certain number of nice things will magically open up the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship with the object of their affection, and is pissed/affronted when they discover that no, the person still does not want to have sex with them. This is closely linked to Nice Guy™ Syndrome, in which the crush-er cannot understand why the crush-ee won't sleep with them/be with them because he's "such a nice guy and you only date jerks!"
That is specifically the friendzone phenomenon which I was talking about. This is a thing and it reeks of entitlement.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...egitimate-rape-doesnt-cause-pregnancy/261303/ Only "Legitimate rape" causes pregnancy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/g-todd-baugh-apology-rape-comments_n_3834769.html Victim was older than her chronological age (while not out right dismissing the rape, it certainly doesn't consider it particularly valid either)
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/03/steubenville-trial-defense/62967/ The Steubenville case where the defense was "Well, she didn't say no, so it wasn't rape!"
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-co...ity-of-southern-california-video-2686924.html He didn't orgasm therefore it wasn't rape.
Here, let me answer the bolded part with a little copy-paste.
Secondly it's not about a = b. We're talking about SEVERAL different attitudes, which when put together creates an environment where rape is more likely to happen.
Humor can be used to either subvert or dismiss. The vast majority of rape jokes are dismissive, not subersive. That is a problem. Regarding the whole racism thing, you do realize that there are many people who think that racism is over, right? There are people who think that racism doesn't exist anymore. Is it caused by racist jokes? No, but they sure don't help the situation.
re-read the very first link I posted.
The reaction to Steubenville wasn't isolated.
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45608534736/the-news-out-of-steubenville-today-is-a-small
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45635407944/the-victim-blaming-****-shaming-reactions-to-the#_
Rape & Sexual harrasment ARE NOT about sex. Not even a little bit. Never. What you wear can't protect you from rape.
Link: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp#B139
A quote from the conclusion:
If you still think dressing modestly is an effective way to prevent this, then by all means, post a link that supports your point.
Ok, that was a response to Dragon's apparent nostalgia about how we've moved away from traditional gender roles, and how things used to be better when they were in place. He was saying how feminism came to rise because men "forgot" about women. Point I was trying to make is, that is bull. That is not how things went down.
Not what i said. First of all, we're not talking about one individual person. We're talking about society as a whole. Secondly it's not about a = b. We're talking about SEVERAL different attitudes, which when put together creates an environment where rape is more likely to happen. How much clearer an explanation would you like?
http://groupthink.jezebel.com/once-upon-a-time-friendzone-simply-meant-the-girl-i-1181201935
The link is largely irrelevant, it's just where I got this following definition from:
My personal understanding is that the mythical friend zone is a situation in which a guy (or girl, but usually guy) has unstated, unrequited feelings for another person, and sticks around doing nice things (read, being a friend) under the impression that a certain number of nice things will magically open up the possibility of a sexual/romantic relationship with the object of their affection, and is pissed/affronted when they discover that no, the person still does not want to have sex with them. This is closely linked to Nice Guy™ Syndrome, in which the crush-er cannot understand why the crush-ee won't sleep with them/be with them because he's "such a nice guy and you only date jerks!"
That is specifically the friendzone phenomenon which I was talking about. This is a thing and it reeks of entitlement.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...egitimate-rape-doesnt-cause-pregnancy/261303/ Only "Legitimate rape" causes pregnancy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/g-todd-baugh-apology-rape-comments_n_3834769.html Victim was older than her chronological age (while not out right dismissing the rape, it certainly doesn't consider it particularly valid either)
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/03/steubenville-trial-defense/62967/ The Steubenville case where the defense was "Well, she didn't say no, so it wasn't rape!"
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-co...ity-of-southern-california-video-2686924.html He didn't orgasm therefore it wasn't rape.
Here, let me answer the bolded part with a little copy-paste.
Secondly it's not about a = b. We're talking about SEVERAL different attitudes, which when put together creates an environment where rape is more likely to happen.
Humor can be used to either subvert or dismiss. The vast majority of rape jokes are dismissive, not subersive. That is a problem. Regarding the whole racism thing, you do realize that there are many people who think that racism is over, right? There are people who think that racism doesn't exist anymore. Is it caused by racist jokes? No, but they sure don't help the situation.
re-read the very first link I posted.
The reaction to Steubenville wasn't isolated.
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45608534736/the-news-out-of-steubenville-today-is-a-small
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45635407944/the-victim-blaming-****-shaming-reactions-to-the#_
CrystalSaurTower
Well-Known Member
Looking into it, I'd say you're right that clothing has probably the least amount of relevence on whether or not someone will be raped, if at all.
Well, how about a situation in which all of these societal influences would influence an ordinairy guy to rape someone? How do these attitudes connect exactly, how are they all traced specifically to these attitudes and not issues that are affecting society at large?
I'd say the kind I described is the kind most guys are actually talking about, as in being rejected and relegated to a friend. It reeks more of being a jerk than male privilege to me.
The legitimate rape issue was met with a huge backlash and even Obama addressed it publically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgB3qTpSmc Clearly this is not a belief a large portion of the population approve of, and was the belief of one bigoted republican.
The other three cases are also reprehensible, but 3 cases handpicked cannot justify an entire culture having a subconcious approval of rape. How much are you attributing these incidents to the sheer fact they made
idiotic descisions based on their individual lunacy and how much they were
influenced by 'rape culture?'
Surely I can string up dozens of instances of ludicrous and unfair indictments towards homosexuals, but does that mean we have an "anti-homosexual culture"?
When I look up transgendered people being murdered and bring up examples where the legal system has failed the victims, does this mean we have a "tansphobic culture"? What about "domestic violence culture"? Or, you know, "murder culture"!
How many "cultures" are needed that say that it's societies fault for excusing every single act of violence that's ever been commited by anyone towards anyone else at all?
Yet again, that's your own interpretation of a highly subjective subject called humor. No one should be prevented from telling offcolor jokes. That's called censorship, and that's not OK.
And still, these rape jokes are hardly ever used except for shock value by comedians. I can't even look up an actual rape joke on google without the actual jokes themselves being flooded with people talking about how much they hate rape jokes instead of actually doing something that might stop rape.
And lastly, about racism, you just pointed out a minority:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/12/racism.poll/
Most americans acknowledge racism is still a problem and even say they know racists. If anything, racial humor (used by people of color as well) has given people more awareness of how ridiculous and wrong it is for something like racism to be done seriously.
A bunch of tweets do not make an entire culture. Unless you can show me an actual trend in which a majority of people posted tweets like that, I'll be able to see "rape culture."
You can't, of course, because most tweets about it were about how wrong and unfair the entire case was.
Search_Ops_TeamD
ShaggySmurf
Here you are giving examples of a few exceptions rather than giving facts. Close minded, not looking at things as a whole. You're living in modern fantasy. And you completely misunderstood what I was getting at with my introductory "story" which was meant as a metaphor. Let me put it this way, men were meant to provide and protect, women were meant to nurture and keep everything else together. That is what nature intended for us. My point being: we, men, messed up. And I don't know what the women to men ratio has to do with this, I'll just ignore that.
This is kind of what rape culture is. But only a small percentage of it. Again, close minded. Rape culture isn't just against women. It seems in this case, you seem to understand how rape culture affects women, but fail to understand what it actually is. You cannot fix a problem by knowing only how it affects a certain people, you have to know what the problem is. This is why, in the first post, rape culture was explained as a different part of the argument.
You can't expect to understand the full extent of the problem if you're only focused on 1 out of 10 things the problem affects, or if you only focus on the exceptions of a whole. You have to readjust you perspective in order to gain an understanding of everything. If can't see the bigger picture and look at things with perspective, you will only patch up part of the problem and never get rid of it completely. This was my opinion about why rape culture keeps being a problem for feminist groups, because rape culture wasn't caused by the feminist movement, rape culture was already an existing problem before feminism, affecting men, women and children, and therefore must be dealt with differently and in cooperation with the whole society.
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Blazekickblaziken
Snarktastic Ditz
This is EXTREMELY debatable. Sure, men, on average, are larger than women and stronger. Sure, women might be biologically predisposed to be more nurturing than men. How ever, any and all predispositions are extremely variable from individual to individual. Furthermore, the human body and brain are so malleable that these predispositions are near meaningless. If nature intended men to be one way and women to be another, then why are the differences so slight and so easily overcome?
Add to that the technological advancement in certain parts of the world, and if you live in one of those places then "what nature intended" is largely irrelevant.
Regarding the gender ratio comment, I'm referring to this mentality that society(the world) has a whole has that thinks of men as the standard and women as variations to that standard. Now, to be clear, this is a subconscious mentality that people have that they, most probably, aren't aware of. With no outside context (an obviously female name, color, clothes, hairstyle, ect.) most things without an obvious gender will be assumed to be male. It is a very subtle thing that is a bit difficult to explain. To put an example (and pardon for using such a silly example in a serious discussion)
When gender differences in pokemon were introduced, the standard designs were kept by the male pokemon and the new variations to the designs were given to female pokemon. (This example is merely for the sake of illustrating the standard/variation concept, not meant to reflect my opinions on pokemon's attitudes towards women)
Now, by referring to that, the point to my comment about the gender ratios is this. The human race is not a standard of men with a variation of women, it's really a 50/50 split and we need to get away from this attitude that women are "special". They are not "special", they are humans just like men. People might think that treating women as "special" is a good thing, but they are missing the point that by treating women as "special" they are reducing them to their gender. Which is bad, because women aren't just women, women are PEOPLE TOO. (Sorry if that was repetitive, but I really wanted to get that point across).
For one, my example wasn't meant to be all encompassing. It was meant to illustrate that their are various attitudes that we have which are toxic and cumulatively create rape culture. Second, Rape culture isn't about who it's "against" (I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that). The concept of rape culture is that we have an attitude towards sex that encourages potential rapists to become rapists, and ecourages rapists to rape again. The problem is that in average circumstances, the victims of rape are mainly (But not exclusively) women.
When we get into certain specific circumstances, we see that the raping of men outnumbers the raping of women. This however is due to the fact however that the men drastically outnumber the women. Even so, in these circumstances we find that as individuals, women are still more likely to get raped than men.(Note, this isn't to dismiss the men who have gone through this, just trying to put it into a larger context) Also I've been trying to use gender neutral terms to refer to rapists and potential victims, since they can be of either gender and any gender combination. If I've slipped up, I apologize, but I feel I have been very good about gender neutrality.
The bolded part, I never said rape culture was caused by the feminist movement. I don't think anyone has said that except people who don't believe that rape culture is a thing. Also, I am honestly stumped about this bigger picture you keep talking about. What are you referring to, because it isn't clear.
@CrystalSaur
This post is very long already, so I'll just address a few points very quickly. Sorry about that.
an entire culture having a subconcious approval of rape. <- Not what rape culture is.
Surely I can string up dozens of instances of ludicrous and unfair indictments towards homosexuals, but does that mean we have an "anti-homosexual culture"? <-Considering this would be in the larger context of the fact that homosexuals face very real discrimination of all sorts, well it certainly would be a red flag.
That's called censorship, and that's not OK. <- Ok, just because it's freedom of speech doesn't mean that 1) It doesn't have negative reprecussions to society as a whole, and 2) you're not being an ***. Also, no one is saying rape jokes should be illegal, they're saying that you should be a decent enough person to CHOOSE not to make rape jokes. Regarding subversive vs dismissive rape jokes, here's a youtube video regarding rape jokes. The relevant part ends at 5 minutes-ish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vmc7aBG8d4
Search_Ops_TeamD
ShaggySmurf
Indeed debatable. We did change. Pretend that in primitive times, this natural "status" was generally a fact. It has been argued that we we NOT supposed to change such nature. We don't know how it happened and probably never will. The fact remains we did, and we are not adapting to it properly. This could be the reason behind everything mentioned in that little story I wrote. I'm sure we can agree on such a possibility. I like to consider everything leading up to a dilemma. Attack the problem at the source or by knowing plenty of background info.
Ah, I see. So that's the reference. This we can agree on.
Yes, I should have said something like "Rape culture isn't just affecting women." That might sound better. The bolded part is what I was trying to get into. It's ok to look at specific circumstances, but without redefining what rape culture is, saying that rape culture targets just women (I should have put this instead, my fault), which is what most people do, and is why the problem only gets patched up, and so on. This is what I meant when I mentioned looking at the bigger picture or looking at the problem as a whole. I'm glad you made it clear this wasn't your case. I guess you didn't understand what I was referring to because you already looked at the problem this way. Just like how I didn't understand your gender ratio reference.
That part was actually about my opinion, wasn't talking down on anyone, that's why I wrote "my opinion" before it. I was clearing up my answer to a possible approach to the issue of rape culture. The bigger picture I already tried to explain the best I could, but then again, different people (you and me) do have different perspectives, which leads you to misunderstand my explanation of my perspectives, and vice versa.
CrystalSaurTower
Well-Known Member
Rape culture is still not something that everyone agrees upon, so it has no real defenition as of yet. I've seen several different feminist groups define rape culture to varying degrees, all trying to portray the idea that our culture somehow excuses rape enough to increase actual rape. Seeing as how it is still a theory that hasn't been universally proven by any meaningful statistics demonstrating that your points are actually influencing 4.5% of the population to rape, it has no solid definition because it's very validity is still being questioned.
Obviously they still do. Racism is still alive, as is sexism, as is discrimination as a whole. But these things are not caused by society. Rape is caused by individuals, 46% of which commit another crime after being released from jail.
The reason most rapists get off free is because rape is a notoriously hard crime to prove. Without being lucky enough to grab DNA evidence from the time that it happened, most cases devolve into character defamation where each side tries to prove the other is lying by trying to show they're the kind of people who WOULD lie. So of course the defense is going to make terrible comments about the rape victim because that's basically ALL THEY CAN DO to defend their client! Without any solid evidence to prove rape, they are innocent until proven guilty, so most cases are dropped! This is not the patriarchy, it is the very fabric of our legal system that can't punish people who cannot be proven guilty.
We cannot blame society for indoctrinating people to commit these heinous acts. We have a culture that dismisses violence, which includes rape, but treats it much more seriously than murders, robberies, and other forms of extremely graphic violence and torture. Does this mean we're a culture that favors murders? Are we teaching our kids that murder is OK, and reasonable to murder someone for your own gain? Is this same "rape culture" influencing all domestic violence, despite the fact 40% of spousal abuse victims are male? I don't see any compelling evidence that it does.
OK, this is your belief that yet again, rape jokes of any variety are anywhere near as common as to influence an entire culture. They're not.
Unless it's done tastefully like in the Wanda Sykes example, a very small amount of people use or hear them at all.
Second of all, humor is humor. A comedian should deserve the respect to say whatever offensive jokes he pleases without being heckled by a person who paid to see him. If they don't like the jokes, they should leave and not see him again.
Plus, you shouldn't be deciding a person's worth on their use of jokes. If you don't like his jokes, you don't like his humor. It doesn't mean he supports rape or is accepting of rape at all. I don't see where the movement was against male prison rape jokes (which is completely fine, because male rape is much more worthy of being joked apparently) , which are just as "dismissive" as this singular joke said by Tosh.
If rape victims want to make sure they don't go to a place where they might hear a rape joke, don't visit edgy comedians who also sprout out jokes that could be very offensive to people of color, gays, practically anyone at all. Don't try to take the moral high ground and police what's funny and what isn't. That's not for you to decide and never will. Such energies would be better served doing something that actually helps prevent rape.
P.S. A video in which all the comedians gathered to talk about the joke already agree with the presenters opinion isn't really qualified to define what is "dismissive" or "subversive" for all people.
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ebevan91
Well-Known Member
I have no idea if this is the right place to put this, but another hot high school teacher/coach got arrested for having sex with a 17 year old student (which is age of consent in most states).
So now the 17 year old is a "victim" of a crime even though he scored big with the hot teacher.
So now the 17 year old is a "victim" of a crime even though he scored big with the hot teacher.
The Federation
Why Not?
Your link is to a law journal that says commenting about how one dresses doesn't constitute sexual harassment. My guess is you couldn't find a source that supports your claims and used that instead. It doesn't prove that rape isn't about sex, it doesn't prove that sexual harassment isn't about attraction, and it definitely doesn't prove that your choice of clothing doesn't influence sexual assault.
It not science, it's law, and there's already been a large number of links a few pages back that actually support (i.e. don't use law articles to prove scientific and psychological observations) the idea that women (and men) are seen more as objects when they are wearing less clothing. More skin, it was said, leads to the perception that they're more vulnerable.
EDIT: I think this was your link from another thread, actually.
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Blazekickblaziken
Snarktastic Ditz
Eeer, I thought the age of consent was 18. Consent laws are really weird in that (at least in my understanding) they work out that if your x age your partner can be no older than y age.
That being said, it was a crime. It doesn't matter if she was a hot teacher. She was older than him and in a position of power. Do we even know that it was consensual? Because if it wasn't it goes from statutory rape, to regular rape.
Professor Squirtle
Professor of Rain
You seem to associate Feminism with equal rights for women rather than with patriarchy theory and its offshoots (rape culture is listed), systemic gendered violence against women, male oppression of women (such as the patriarchal terrorist paradigm of domestic violence). You seem to believe feminists are the same as women's rights advocates or people who believe in equal rights for women. For your argument to start off with a fallacy is not a good way to introduce a topic. How the dictionary defines feminism, and how feminists are truly defined by their actions, are two separate concepts.
That first sentence makes little to no sense. The "equality of women is currently seen as a problem..."? By who, exactly? ****-walks were an explosive response to a single officer's remark. The rest of society does not support this attitude at all, as seen by the instant popularity the "****-walk" received. If a woman is wearing a miniskirt, I will definitely go so far as to say she wants (specific) guys to stare at her as she walks down the street. Women evince their sexuality subtly; they do this by dressing provocatively when seeking sex, and there's nothing wrong with that; it's biological. I could go into intense detail if anyone would like, but for now I'll leave it at that. However, she only wants to attract specific, potentially vetted men, and will undoubtedly attract undesirable, un-vetted men. There's nothing wrong with trying to passively emit sexuality, but claiming that it not a big reason behind a woman wearing a miniskirt makes little sense. There's also nothing wrong with objectifying someone who is attractive to you, and women do this to men all the time without receiving any flack for it.
As for the glass ceiling; it does not exist. It is a myth in the sense that women are not being promoted because they are women, as opposed to choices they (get to) make or performance issues. That "source" posted in the thread is not a factual database that proves "women are not being hired because they are women"; it's a philosophical construct, not a black and white fact. It's talking about Affirmative Action, which is already fallaciously implemented to assist women in getting those jobs and promotions, for being women. Men have no assistance in this (male privilege does not exist). The glass cellar however, is a real thing. Women who complain about not being able to have access to top positions in top jobs (where women are very scarce already) are cherry-picking the terms of "equality". They are not complaining about the glass cellar (bottom, dangerous jobs), which is dominated by men (95% greater work fatalities on men... look away, feminists). If you took the time to analyze the percentage of homeless by gender (asymmetrical amount of homeless men to women) you would notice that there are many more unsuccessful, poor men with no one who bothers to help them. Despite this, there is much more out there for homeless women.
Men don't disregard women in a business atmosphere because they are oppressive ne'er-do-wells who secretly share a plan with the imaginary "patriarchy" that women must be oppressed for the benefit of all men. Men, despite humanity's departure from the old tournament model society that our ancient hominid ancestors once partook in, no longer compete this way. Instead, in corporate offices, board meetings, offices, men compete with one another. To a man, his innate sense is to protect a woman, mate with her, be nice to her, etc. Competition with women is not natural or innate for men, and although it does not make logical sense (nor does the existence of feminism at all), men can't help this biological impulse. They are "losers" if they lose to a woman, forgoing all masculinity in the process, or jerks for beating one. To a man, this is a lose-lose scenario, he gets no rewards from it. This situation is more complex than people give it credit, and rather observe it very myopically.
So they want to be "equal" with men? Relative to what? What is equality? Do they want to be as strong as men? Do they want to compete with them in the Olympics? Do they want to receive their pay and respect? So they want to cherry-pick equality, yet again? Because I don't hear feminists clamoring for equality with regards to conscription. Sure, they wanted to vote, right, but forget conscription because that's just too much "equality" for women (even though men had to face conscription for the right to vote, women were handed the right to vote free of any sort of responsibility besides existing). Do they want to get mugged as often as men? Do they want to take men's nasty, dirty, dangerous jobs over safe, comfy cozy ones? What is "equality" when you use it? What is it relative to?
That is not the main goal of feminists, or they would have stopped before they influenced laws like "Primary Aggressor" which are inherently sexist and dangerous, among a plethora of others which disadvantage fathers and husbands in courts. Feminists do not petition for any rights for men whatsoever, and bat an eyelash at their issues. Contrary to an even more gross misconception, feminism advocates for furthering the comfort and convenience for women in society. What are they doing for men in society? They are still many times more likely to die on the job than a women. They are killed in violent crimes much more often than women. They are the absolute majority of war victims. They are the majority of the suicidal, and the homeless. They are in the minority in college universities, and other academic programs. They have no reproductive rights whatsoever. There are virtually no safe havens for battered husbands. Do women want this as part of their desire for "equality"? It is currently unacknowledged by the FBI that women can rape by envelopment, thereby nullifying claims from men that a woman raped him. Yet feminists ignore this; they advocate for women, and women only. They do not like Men's Rights activism, either, and are constantly present during their rallies to protest.
First you have to prove a rape culture exists for any argument surrounding it as a concept to mean anything. Rape culture's definition here is actually accurate; it's normalization of rape in society. I hope everyone knows what that means. It's not some secret in colleges and on campuses, it would mean it's talked about openly in public venues without fear of legal or social persecution. That culture does not exist, not towards female victims of rape. Society does not tolerate a woman getting raped, period. A man's rape is tolerated, if not laughed at, or simply written off as impossible. This attitude is offensive to the core of many male rape victims, and nobody really makes a big deal out of it. Just talk to anyone about prison rape; that is rape culture. Does stuff like "A common excuse is "boys will be boys..."? have a source? A common excuse by whom, exactly? That in no way represents the reality I live in. Nobody in America actually is of the mentality that the clothes a woman wears means she is asking for rape; show me the society and culture that surrounds that mentality. Laughing at rape jokes thrown at men? Yeah, just watch Family Guy or any other show that makes it into a laughing issue. That's an unavoidable double-standard.
Here is the FBI's definition for rape as of 2013:
The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.
The FBI's definition for rape does not include envelopment, so under that definition, it is impossible for a woman to vaginally rape a man (I know a male who is suicidally depressed because of the trauma of a female raping him, among others I have talked to) or for that matter, a child (only statutorily). Because of this definition, of course there's going to be skewed representation of gendered rape victims; it's impossible for a woman to sexually abuse a man with this definition. This definition is still behind the times, and should be expanded to include envelopment.
"Obviously many other excuses..?" Can you show me these excuses for a rape culture? Excuses for a rape culture that doesn't even exist. This thread is biased from the get-go. Feminism is not a universally beneficial force, and it is horrible for men and boys. Unfortunately most people have only a rudimentary understanding of humanity, gender, how our brains works, and how that influences our blind support for feminism as a society. I am opposed to feminism; I support utter and true equality for humanity, and the simple callous disregard for men's issues (such as those which I have uttered) is proof positive that women are still, to this day, seen as inherently more valuable than men. For this I must be a terrible person.
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ebevan91
Well-Known Member
Consent laws are definitely weird. Some states have laws where the person can be 16 but no more than 36 months younger than the other person. Some states have laws where the age is 17 and that's it.
The Admiral
the star of the masquerade
I never really understood why the age of consent isn't universal, at least across the nation. That's not on topic, but I need to say it anyway if we're talking about it.