Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

[EmphaticPikachu]

Here is the FBI's definition for rape as of 2013:

The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

Strange that that's the defintion owo...I don't know, maybe it's because I just didn't look it up, but social factors seem to tell me that anyone who forces a sexual encounter on someone without consent would be considered "raping" at worse, and "sexual harrasment" at best. Regardless of gender/sex.

That technical defintion has no bearing on what I consider rape. So does that really affect rape cases to an extreme extent? If so, can I see some examples?


EDIT: god damnit I can't type today for my life. >_>

 

[The Federation]

You seem to associate Feminism with equal rights for women rather than with patriarchy theory and its offshoots (rape culture is listed), systemic gendered violence against women, male oppression of women (such as the patriarchal terrorist paradigm of domestic violence). You seem to believe feminists are the same as women's rights advocates or people who believe in equal rights for women. For your argument to start off with a fallacy is not a good way to introduce a topic. How the dictionary defines feminism, and how feminists are truly defined by their actions, are two separate concepts.

To be fair, the only ones who believe rape culture, systemic misogyny, male patriarchy and the like exist are the radfems. They're determined to place blame on men at every turn, even if it isn't due, and ignore any (and all) oppressive factors against males, almost to parody.

What I would call a "real" feminist is someone who meets the standards of the provided definition and nothing more. I support feminism's stance on equal rights and an even playing field in all regards, but denounce the claims of patriarchy, oppression, and culturally-based misogyny. This is the importance of the definition, in my mind, and is why it's placed in the OP. It's valuable because it represents the pure form of feminist belief.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

To be fair, the only ones who believe rape culture, systemic misogyny, male patriarchy and the like exist are the radfems. They're determined to place blame on men at every turn, even if it isn't due, and ignore any (and all) oppressive factors against males, almost to parody.

Ok, legit, what kinda feminists are you people being exposed to?

Most feminist will agree that patriarchy is toxic to both men and women. The oh so "evil" Anita Sarkesian will often point out that these stereotypical depictions of masculinity are bad for men. The everyday sexism feed on twitter which chronicles, well, everyday sexism, will gladly retweet stories by men.

Let's be realistic, no one thinks patriarchy is "of you're a man, you get all the rewards and women get all the punishment. " Patriarchy is a complex system of rewards and punisments, that benefits men as a whole while disenfranchising women as a whole. However the effect any specific individual will experience is higly variable.

 

[John Madden]

To be fair, the only ones who believe rape culture, systemic misogyny, male patriarchy and the like exist are the radfems.

somehow, i'm not surprised that you actually believe this is true.

like i'm actually glad to see i, and most of the other feminist posters in this thread, are being painted w/ the same brush as TERFs.

 

[The Federation]

Most feminist will agree that patriarchy is toxic to both men and women.

Most feminists believe it exists in the first place.

Let's be realistic, no one thinks patriarchy is "of you're a man, you get all the rewards and women get all the punishment. " Patriarchy is a complex system of rewards and punisments, that benefits men as a whole while disenfranchising women as a whole. However the effect any specific individual will experience is higly variable.

No, I don't think anyone believes that either. Instead, I often see described it as a government or society ruled and controlled by males, where men are given total authority over women.

This, of course, doesn't correspond with the real world where no such thing exists.

somehow, i'm not surprised that you actually believe this is true.

Start it right off with a person attack, that's great. If you mean to insinuate that you think I'm stupid, don't bother with semantics.

like i'm actually glad to see i, and most of the other feminist posters in this thread, are being painted w/ the same brush as TERFs.

o, I wouldn't go that far and didn't mean to go that far, and I'm sure you know that. To be fair, radfem is far too harsh, but there's no label beyond strict advocation of equality and whatever this belief in the mythical patriarchy is. It's somewhere in between, and there's no real name for that group. Maybe "modern" feminists is more appropriate and fitting.

 

[Professor Squirtle]

Strange that that's the defintion owo...I don't know, maybe it's because I just didn't look it up, but social factors seem to tell me that anyone who forces a sexual encounter on someone without consent would be considered "raping" at worse, and "sexual harrasment" at best. Regardless of gender/sex.

That technical defintion has no bearing on what I consider rape. So does that really affect rape cases to an extreme extent? If so, can I see some examples?

My own father said, "It's impossible for a woman to rape a man." My father isn't stupid, he isn't (particularly) sexist either, and he feels genuine sympathy for male victims of rape; this is his response to my describing the intense trauma that a friend is undergoing in reaction to a female sexually abusing him. It is very sad. Feminists ignore it and/or deem it impossible for women to rape men, often dubbing it "unwanted sex" from women; this is retrogressive thinking not in anyway moral or reasonable. To answer your question about examples, how can I give you evidence to something that is completely unreported? The FBI's definition completely excludes envelopment, so how can realistic statistics regarding female-on-male rape (or female-on-female; feminists by-in-large ignore the possibility of a female rapist because it suits their agenda politically) possibly exist? Society doesn't want to believe it, the law doesn't want to believe it, and feminists don't want to believe that women can rape men. This isn't a fringe mentality, this isn't even feminist-exclusive mentality; this is the human collective.

To be fair, the only ones who believe rape culture, systemic misogyny, male patriarchy and the like exist are the radfems. They're determined to place blame on men at every turn, even if it isn't due, and ignore any (and all) oppressive factors against males, almost to parody.

To be fair, that is feminism; what you view as radical is authentic feminism and its ideals. For goodness sakes, this forum thread has "rape culture" in its title, and it's being legitimately analyzed on a Pokemon website as if it's a real threat to women when its existence is as far from reality as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Much of feminist propaganda is not only popular to mainstream feminists, but mainstream culture. Try going up to someone in a university or on the street and say "Women were never oppressed by men, ever," they'll look at you incredulously because they are simply not prepared for this version of reality. I'm not saying it's only women either; men, women, feminists, everyone thinks this way.

What I would call a "real" feminist is someone who meets the standards of the provided definition and nothing more. I support feminism's stance on equal rights and an even playing field in all regards, but denounce the claims of patriarchy, oppression, and culturally-based misogyny. This is the importance of the definition, in my mind, and is why it's placed in the OP. It's valuable because it represents the pure form of feminist belief.

Feminism does not support equal rights. Women have more rights than men, if we're speaking legally, and they still are not stopping. I support a true egalitarian model for society, but feminists do not represent the future of society, or forward thinking at all. Feminism exists on the concepts of the patriarchy, oppression, and culturally-based misogyny. If it didn't, it would have stopped awhile ago. That is the pure feminist belief, which influences laws, academia, and society as a whole.

 

[John Madden]

To answer your question about examples, how can I give you evidence to something that is completely unreported? The FBI's definition completely excludes envelopment, so how can realistic statistics regarding female-on-male rape (or female-on-female; feminists by-in-large ignore the possibility of a female rapist because it suits their agenda politically) possibly exist?

i made a good-faith effort toward finding statistics regarding male victims of rape earlier on this very page and multiple posters would easily be able to find statistical reports toward that end; surely you can do the same if you feel so strongly about this

 

[Deku_Link]

feminists don't want to believe that women can rape men.

feminists such as:

 

[Professor Squirtle]

feminists such as:

Mary Koss.

 

[John Madden]

Mary Koss.

presupposing that mary koss actually believes what you say she believes and that this isn't based on clearly unbiased and trustworthy sites like avoiceformen and /r/mensrights

you've named one feminist.

 

[Professor Squirtle]

i made a good-faith effort toward finding statistics regarding male victims of rape earlier on this very page and multiple posters would easily be able to find statistical reports toward that end; surely you can do the same if you feel so strongly about this

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024648106477

(Sorry, I posted the same link twice)

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

you've named one feminist.

Feminists don't need to explicitly state something for their implicit actions or lies by omission to be analyzed just the same (under-reported rapes of men being one).

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=186342 - this is a link to violence and sexual violence in the Congo. There is a "town of joy" as some would refer to it for girls and women who are sexually assaulted to live in, in the Congo. No such refuge exists for men, and the acknowledgement by feminists that women raped them goes undetected. Are women campaigning for "Women, don't be that girl" signs? With statistics on rape, and yet the overwhelming amount of heat placed on men, and men alone, this speaks for itself when asking "Do feminists want to acknowledge a female rapist?"

 

[John Madden]

Feminists don't need to explicitly state something for their implicit actions or lies by omission to be analyzed just the same

so basically you're saying "i don't need to demonstrate a preponderance of feminists saying something in order for there to be a preponderance of feminists saying something"

speaking of analysis, your allegations re: mary koss were pretty far off base given that she has never said anything close to "women can't rape men" in all of the academic literature i've seen from her.

she may have conducted studies on rape prevalence that were based on a legal definition of rape that was exclusionary to male victims, but it's the height of being disingenuous to go from that to what you were actually claiming she said.

 

[The Admiral]

she may have conducted studies on rape prevalence that were based on a legal definition of rape that was exclusionary to male victims, but it's the height of being disingenuous to go from that to what you were actually claiming she said.

"The government doesn't count it," "it's a literal impossibility" -- po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Feminists don't actually believe that that's true.

It's also blatantly untrue that only radicals believe in the existence of a patriarchy, rape culture, etc. -- but come now, I don't have to explain that, surely.

 

[Mitzi]

This thread is for discussion on the success of feminism, how to improve upon it, opinions on feminism, and how to solve the issue of rape culture in our society today.

I find it interesting that women have successfully begun to voice their opinions even louder than before. That being said, sometimes I think they're a little too loud. I don't try to disrespect feminists nor feminism, but sometimes they come off as very overbearing. It's almost as if they try to make everything an issue, regardless of how harmless it may actually be. I'll give you an example: the Robin Thicke controversy.

Spoiler: Rape Discussion - Read w/ Caution

For those of you who are not aware of the controversy involving Robin Thicke, it stems from his song "Blurred Lines". Many feminists perceived the song as blurred lines for sexual consent. The lyrics contains words/phrases such as "I know you want it" and "just let me liberate you". What puzzles me is that this song isn't even that bad. When you compare it to some of the explicit rap songs I've heard, it's nothing. Yet feminists still found a way to make it an issue. This is where they succeed, but also where they start to receive heavy criticism.

As far as improvements go, I don't really have any. As time goes on, and feminists continue to bring up more issues -- pressing or harmless --their flaws will become ore apparent. Lastly, the issue of rape culture is not something that's going to be solved overnight. This will probably continue for many more years to come, because no issue will ever be completely resolved (IMO). However, with the overwhelming support of the outspoken feminists, I'm sure there may be a plausible solution on the horizon.

 

[LDSman]

I don't believe there is a "Rape Culture." If there was, I think the stats would be a lot different.

I think a couple of different issues are colliding and maybe causing problems that could be taken that way.

First issue: The US justice system is supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty." Certain accusations seem to be "Guilty at all costs." Rape accusations often take that tone. Any questions about what lead up to that event are twisted to be accusations against the victim and whoever is asking that question is attacked. Doubts are deflected by raising the claim of other victims too afraid to come forward. I believe the Duke Lacrosse case had that accusation at one point.

Second issue: Defending the accused. You know your brother, son, nephew, husband, whoever very well. An accusation is made against them and you naturally defend them as you don't believe they would do such a thing. They are veritable pillars of the community, a very popular and nice, have their whole life ahead of them, why would they need to do such as thing when they have so many willing fans, etc. The accused is about to have his life dragged through the mud, lose out on many opportunities, be forever the guy that got away with rape regardless of innocence. In case like this, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. There have been many cases where the accuser was lying. Either for attention, for money, for revenge, to get out of trouble, is troubled, etc.

Sometimes, these accusations come down to his word against hers and there will be no winners.

I think rape trials ahould be very public and guilty verdicts should be followed by a swift and harsh public punishment.

Edit: I am not saying that I approve of some tactics used by some defense attorneys or that all accusations are false. Just that it's going to be a difficult situation.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

At first I didn't think that Robin Thicke's song was bad. But then I saw the music video. I'm sorry, but how is a fully clothed man having naked women dance around him while he sings about how he wants to have sex with them and how they OBVS. want to have sex with him too, not rape-y?

In the video they are LITTERALLY chasing the girls down to have sex. They are litterally grabbing them aggressively and saying "I know you want this". And they didn't even bother to tell the girls to look interested. Throughout the video their interest level ranges from "couldn't care less" all the way to "fine, I'll hear you out." At their most enthusiastic, the girls are being coy, which isn't bad, but is far from where you should be.

you know how this music video would have been less rape-y? Take away that weird power dynamic you get when you have the men fully clothed and the women not. Honestly, why are the men fully clothed but not the women? Strip down the guys, I'm sure everyone would love to see Thicke in his undies (I know I would). Stop being aggressively sexual AT the women, like some sort of sexual predator. Ohand have them looking enthused. Coy is a starting place, not the peak.

 

[The Admiral]

Spoiler: Rape Discussion - Read w/ Caution

For those of you who are not aware of the controversy involving Robin Thicke, it stems from his song "Blurred Lines". Many feminists perceived the song as blurred lines for sexual consent. The lyrics contains words/phrases such as "I know you want it" and "just let me liberate you". What puzzles me is that this song isn't even that bad. When you compare it to some of the explicit rap songs I've heard, it's nothing. Yet feminists still found a way to make it an issue. This is where they succeed, but also where they start to receive heavy criticism.

Okay, to be fair, those other songs you mention (indirectly) warrant discussion too. But "Blurred Lines" was triggering for many people and massively popular. It's far from harmless. (I would dig up the interview where he mentions that the song comes from how he (purportedly) spent his whole life respecting women and how glad he is to have a chance to be disrespectful -- because it cements that it's supposed to be a disrespectful song and some of the things he says are pretty gross -- but I really daren't search.)

In the video they are LITTERALLY chasing the girls down to have sex. They are litterally grabbing them aggressively and saying "I know you want this". And they didn't even bother to tell the girls to look interested. Throughout the video their interest level ranges from "couldn't care less" all the way to "fine, I'll hear you out." At their most enthusiastic, the girls are being coy, which isn't bad, but is far from where you should be.

you know how this music video would have been less rape-y? Take away that weird power dynamic you get when you have the men fully clothed and the women not. Honestly, why are the men fully clothed but not the women? Strip down the guys, I'm sure everyone would love to see Thicke in his undies (I know I would). Stop being aggressively sexual AT the women, like some sort of sexual predator. Ohand have them looking enthused. Coy is a starting place, not the peak.

It would also be interesting to find out whether or not he has that big dick he claims to have, but really, that screamed "compensating for something" so hard that it wasn't even funny. But that aside, I think a better idea would have been just to not even have made the song in the first place, but I guess that's only a questionable possibility.

In the end, I think that the more offensive part may have been not the content itself, but that people were utterly blasé about it.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

Oh, whoops! You're right, I was so focused on the imagery part, that I completely forgot the song had lyrics.

People's reaction: What, you mean a guy forecully grabbing women and telling them they want it is rapey?

My reaction: YES!

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...urred-lines-following-advert-ban-8871725.html

People say, ‘Hey, do you think this is degrading to women?’ I’m like, ‘Of course it is. What a pleasure it is to degrade a woman. I’ve never gotten to do that before. I’ve always respected women.’

Um... what?

 

[CrystalSaurTower]

Oh, whoops! You're right, I was so focused on the imagery part, that I completely forgot the song had lyrics.

People's reaction: What, you mean a guy forecully grabbing women and telling them they want it is rapey?

My reaction: YES!

Uh, he didn't "forcebly grab" anyone in that video and tell them they want it. The song is about a man seducing women in a completely consensual way. Being full of yourself and telling them they want it isn't forcing them to do anything, it's flirting, albeit in a degrading way.

But rapey? THIS is supposed to be an example of rape culture, women who seem perfectly content with themselves, walking all over the place doing whatever they please as the men chase after them, not fazed in the slightest by Thicke's lyrics or showboating? It's an adult music video with sex appeal, jesus. The "power balance" seems more towards the women who don't give a damn about the men. I don't see why showing women who aren't interested in the singer in a seduction video means they are being forced to anything. They're demonstrating their equality by ignoring them/warming up to them as the song goes on whatever way you see it.

But grabbing, forcing, telling them they want sex? No. You're seeing what you want to see, which is the illusion of rape culture.

 

[Blazekickblaziken]

Uh, he didn't "forcebly grab" anyone in that video and tell them they want it. The song is about a man seducing women in a completely cosensual way. Being full of yourself and telling them they want it isn't forcing them to do anything, it's flirting, albeit in a degrading way.

Oh! Well when you put it THAT... way it's still incredibly sleazy.

He isn't "forcing" the girls, he's just pressuring them. Because that's how consensual sex happens, by pressuring the other person until they cave. Yep, not rapey at all.

Yeah, and the power dynamics don't matter because even though the video was made for men to objectify women(or just using women's bodies to create sensationalism, which is just objectifying them in a different way), and made by men, the women look like they don't care so it's all even!

Thank you for clarifying everything for me.

P.S. Media literacy classes. I recomend them.