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Feminism & Rape Culture 2014: My Post is Up Here Guys

Anytime women try to enter a male dominated field, they are basically bullied and insubordinated until they leave.
You're proof for your opinion is a video by someone else that shares your opinion? If this is such a huge, widespread, clear issue, why is this the best you can do?

So what, a woman on Youtube has to deal with hate. So does ANYONE that uses that website. It must be really hard for her to live in a society that has less science and educational videos hosted by women. Now I see why capital "P" Patriarchy is such an issue- why should women have to deal with compliments that makes them feel slightly awkward now and then??
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
So what, a woman on Youtube has to deal with hate. So does ANYONE that uses that website. It must be really hard for her to live in a society that has less science and educational videos hosted by women. Now I see why capital "P" Patriarchy is such an issue- why should women have to deal with compliments that makes them feel slightly awkward now and then??

You are PURPOSEFULLY missing the point. It isn't about the numbers, the numbers are a symptom. The problem is that when men release content, the only important thing is that the content is good enough. When a woman releases content, her content can't just be "good enough" it has to be nearly perfect, and even then she still get's judged on how attractive she is or isn't, as if that affected the quality of her content.

Also, those "compliments" aren't akward, they are RUDE. Whatever you think you're saying, what you are actually saying is "yeah, that science talk was cool and stuff, but what's really important is how attractive you look." That's how compliments work. You compliment people on what you percieve to be compliment worthy.

Here's a video from HuffPost, watch it and rationalize it away. I'm not going to keep looking up easily accessible information because you're lazy and lack empathy.
 
You are PURPOSEFULLY missing the point. It isn't about the numbers, the numbers are a symptom. The problem is that when men release content, the only important thing is that the content is good enough.
No, the problem is that you are unquestioningly submitting to her thought process. This is how she feels, how she thinks other feel; it has nothing to do with any overarching reality that you nor anyone else here has sat down and provided evidence for.

Also, those "compliments" aren't akward, they are RUDE.
Man: "Wow girl, you're looking good today. Want to get some coffee?" = RUDE
Woman: "Wow dude, you're looking good today. Want to get some coffee?" = Thoughtful, kind, amiable

EQUALITY

Whatever you think you're saying, what you are actually saying is "yeah, that science talk was cool and stuff, but what's really important is how attractive you look."
And now you know what I mean better than I do. I must lack empathy and simply not comprehend how you are so intimately inside my mind, I guess.

That's how compliments work. You compliment people on what you percieve to be compliment worthy.
Looks are compliment worthy. Intelligence is compliment worthy. Specific actions are compliment worthy. Complimenting anyone on their looks doesn't mean you think they're a daft idiot who never does anything right.

I'm not going to keep looking up easily accessible information because you're lazy and lack empathy.
A systemic issue with all of society... and you give me a female Youtuber who has issues using the website but this is somehow more of a problem because she's a female, and a link to a Huff Post video discussing why there aren't as many females as males in science.

THIS IS PATRIARCHY.

Don't know how I missed it before.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
These aren't situations where the answers are only absolutes. There are tons of ways to compliment looks, and some are good and some are bad. Is it that hard to put yourself in someone's shoes and think about how they would react to a situation and react accordingly?
 
These aren't situations where the answers are only absolutes. There are tons of ways to compliment looks, and some are good and some are bad. Is it that hard to put yourself in someone's shoes and think about how they would react to a situation and react accordingly?
I think it's a petty and trivial complaint. Everyone feels awkward sometimes. I can understand the discomfort, I really can, but I don't think something like an off remark can put another person in the red. It's just such an insignificant issue. No matter what it is, they're just words, and complimentary words, at that.

Also, this was part of his attempt to illustrate the Patriarchy. Do you think this is the best way to show how terribly women are systemically subjugated? By bringing up that women get complimented more than normal?
 

Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
No, the problem is that you are unquestioningly submitting to her thought process. This is how she feels, how she thinks other feel; it has nothing to do with any overarching reality that you nor anyone else here has sat down and provided evidence for.
This reminds me of something I really need to address.

I don't "think" the person can't understand others' perspectives, it's functionally impossible for them to understand them without their preconceived biases interfering. You don't get the same understanding of certain kinds of adversity when you never have to deal with it by sole virtue of your skin color and gender.
All people are unique individuals. Even if we accepted that people are experts on what they personally experience, each individual would only be an expert on the discrimination they themselves face. A woman would be unable to verify whether all women experience discrimination in the same way because it would be impossible for her to reliably go inside the heads of other women.

Now, if you are saying that she can deduce this by observing what happens to other women, I don't see why men wouldn't be able to do the same by observing what happens to women. A woman's personal experiences are statistically only a very small fraction of discrimination against women in society, so her experiences are an unreliable method of measuring the big picture. Isn't this why they use statistics in sociology to begin with?

Secondly, why would preconceived biases be so heavily linked to physical properties? Whether a person has preconceived biases on gender roles depends on their cognition rather than their physical gender. For example, a woman brought up in a home with strict gender stereotypes could very easily develop a more biased view of women than a man brought up in a home with weak gender stereotypes. Simply having a physical gender does not make you an expert on the corresponding social gender because the latter is socially constructed. At most, you might be able to show a statistical connection between physical gender and being an expert on gender stereotypes, but whether an individual is an expert would ultimately have to be judged at the individual level.
 
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Maedar

Banned
Thank you, Aegis.

That's why I oppose the Republicans, they think of people in terms of statistics, not individuals. Like how they complain about the ACA's impact on the economy and ignore the lives it will save.

People are NOT figures in a book.
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
Man: "Wow girl, you're looking good today. Want to get some coffee?" = RUDE
Woman: "Wow dude, you're looking good today. Want to get some coffee?" = Thoughtful, kind, amiable

Nope! Not what I said at all.

Telling some attractive girl at the bar "Hey, I think you're cute, wanna get coffee?" = OK (assuming she was sending receptive signals)
Telling a some one who just finished giving a presentation "Hey, I think you're cute, wanna get coffee?" = Rude

Do you see the difference between the two scenarios?

Also, Pro-Tip, generally speaking, it's rude to go up to a woman you don't know and call her "girl".
And now you know what I mean better than I do.

Never said I knew what you meant. I don't know what's going on inside your head. I'm saying that what ever you think you're saying, what your words and actions are expressing are something completely different.
Looks are compliment worthy. Intelligence is compliment worthy. Specific actions are compliment worthy. Complimenting anyone on their looks doesn't mean you think they're a daft idiot who never does anything right.

If you are complimenting someone on their looks when they just gave a presentation, what you're saying is "The most important part of this presentation to me was how you looked." or, in other words "The presentation you just gave wasn't as worthy of praise as how you look."

Did you mean it? I don't know. I'm not psychic. But that's the message you're sending across.

A systemic issue with all of society... and you give me a female Youtuber who has issues using the website but this is somehow more of a problem because she's a female, and a link to a Huff Post video discussing why there aren't as many females as males in science.

Honestly, I'm just looking for something so simple anyone can understand it. Considering how much trouble you have comprehending the sentences I'm writing, I'm guessing that's my best shot.

All people are unique individuals. Even if we accepted that people are experts on what they personally experience, each individual would only be an expert on the discrimination they themselves face. A woman would be unable to verify whether all women experience discrimination in the same way because it would be impossible for her to reliably go inside the heads of other women.

What you're saying is true to a certain extent. The problem is that you are assuming that women are facing problems that are all very different from one another. The thing is that, while true, every situation is "unique" in the most literal interpretation of the phrase, the kinds of harassment each woman faces individually, when taken as a whole is very similar. However, us men don't have to face anything similar to the kind of harassment women receive. Going back to the catcalling topic, most if not every woman knows what it's like to be catcalled on a consistent basis. A man might have the experience of being catcalled maybe once, or twice, but no where near the same extent as women.

A man who gets shouted at in the street once in a blue moon might feel flattered.

a woman who gets shouted at in the street every day feels harassed.
 
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Do you see the difference between the two scenarios?
Looks like this is something not at all exclusive to women, then. Sure, sometimes in some places either gender can be slightly embarrassed by awkward advances, but this is in no way a huge issue. Not only is it insignificant, but it also fails to demonstrate any sort of systemic repression of women.

I'm saying that what ever you think you're saying, what your words and actions are expressing are something completely different.
The reality is, complimenting someone, no matter the circumstance, is a petty thing to be bothered over. Volume can affect it, but when it comes down to it, it's just the same as dealing with any other type of speech you would rather not hear. Either tune it out or deal with it another way.

Once again, not illustrative of your point on Patriarchy. Can anyone prove it's something a rational person should give credence to?

If you are complimenting someone on their looks when they just gave a presentation, what you're saying is "The most important part of this presentation to me was how you looked." or, in other words "The presentation you just gave wasn't as worthy of praise as how you look."
Or, it could simply mean that they thought s/he was attractive. That's usually why people compliment appearance. Maybe the presentation was great, but it's just easier to generically compliment someone because it's easier. Why are we hung up on how terrible compliments must make people feel? Compliments.

Did you mean it? I don't know. I'm not psychic. But that's the message you're sending across.
No, that's the message you're receiving. In linguistics, what you say and what others hear isn't the same. Saying that all females who receive compliments in specific scenarios also needs to be proven, because basing that belief (as a male yourself, I believe) on the testimony of one female Youtuber is insubstantial.

Honestly, I'm just looking for something so simple anyone can understand it. Considering how much trouble you have comprehending the sentences I'm writing, I'm guessing that's my best shot.
This coming from the guy who hears what he wants to hear so he can fulfill the victim complex of others. If you or anyone wants to prove, in all seriousness, the Patriarchy or any of its components, then please do, because I'm done watching videos of people complaining about being complimented.

If you want to provide proof, great, please do so. If anyone else wants to, that's perfectly fine as well.
 

Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
What you're saying is true to a certain extent. The problem is that you are assuming that women are facing problems that are all very different from one another. The thing is that, while true, every situation is "unique" in the most literal interpretation of the phrase, the kinds of harassment each woman faces individually, when taken as a whole is very similar. However, us men don't have to face anything similar to the kind of harassment women receive. Going back to the catcalling topic, most if not every woman knows what it's like to be catcalled on a consistent basis. A man might have the experience of being catcalled maybe once, or twice, but no where near the same extent as women.
How did you verify that the harassment of women is very similar? Through individual experience? No, you did it by observing how women are treated. I said just now:
A woman would be unable to verify whether all women experience discrimination in the same way because it would be impossible for her to reliably go inside the heads of other women.

Now, if you are saying that she can deduce this by observing what happens to other women, I don't see why men wouldn't be able to do the same by observing what happens to women. A woman's personal experiences are statistically only a very small fraction of discrimination against women in society, so her experiences are an unreliable method of measuring the big picture. Isn't this why they use statistics in sociology to begin with?
A woman would verify the situation in the same way you do: by observing how women are treated. She would not have any access to the knowledge that harassment is similar simply based on her own experiences.
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/20...experienced-discrimination-in-the-workplace/#

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2013/oct/17/women-in-science-ada-lovelace-gender

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/s...ainst-women-of-science-a-study-says.html?_r=0

Also there is the entire @everydaysexism twitter feed. (a few examples)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/21/elise-andrew-sexist-comments_n_2923084.html

Also, question: If women keep insisting that complimenting their looks when they are being professional is insulting, why would you do it? The point is to compliment them, not insult them. Or do you not care whether or not they actually are complimented?

A woman would verify the situation in the same way you do: by observing how women are treated. She would not have any access to the knowledge that harassment is similar simply based on her own experiences.

Woman 1: So I was walking down the street and some guy honked at me.

Woman 2: Oh that happened to me to yesterday

Woman 3: Me and some girls were walking down the street the other day and it happened to us too.

Woman 2: That makes me angry

Woman 1: That makes me scared

Woman 3: That makes me angry AND scared

Woman 1: My boyfriend never believes me because it never happens when I'm with him.

Woman 2 & 3: Me too!

Women can share, and compare experiences with each other. *BOOM* Mind blown.
 
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Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
Woman 1: So I was walking down the street and some guy honked at me.

Woman 2: Oh that happened to me to yesterday

Woman 3: Me and some girls were walking down the street the other day and it happened to us too.

Woman 2: That makes me angry

Woman 1: That makes me scared

Woman 3: That makes me angry AND scared

Woman 1: My boyfriend never believes me because it never happens when I'm with him.

Woman 2 & 3: Me too!

Women can share, and compare experiences with each other. *BOOM* Mind blown.
Last time I checked, men and women are also capable of having a conversation.

If women talk more with each other, this only implies a statistical connection, not that all women have more knowledge of harassment than all men. I mentioned that already.

Also, if someone only knows of a few instances, it is not good knowledge of the big picture. You should observe more than only a few cases. That's why statistics are used. I mentioned that, too.



Besides, all your counterarguments contain the assumption that you know how discrimination against women works. But if you are a man and men cannot know how discrimination against women works, how is this possible?

Such as, if men can never know of discussions like the example you mentioned, how do you know such discussions exist?
 
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Of all those links, not one provided what I wanted: distinctive proof that discrimination of women permeates cultures at a systemic level, influencing everyone and lending itself to a distinctively male-dominated society.

I am not even arguing that men don't dominate STEM fields. I think I even conceded that much earlier when I was talking to you or someone else. Now, keep posting what isn't even in dispute as much as you want, but until such a time as someone wants to show how society is keeping women as a whole oppressed in every field, I can't accept it as something that exists. I haven't even had to bring in anything to disprove something you've said, yet.

Besides, all your counterarguments contain the assumption that you know how discrimination against women works. But if you are a man and men cannot know how discrimination against women works, how is this possible?
Wrong, all his counterarguments contain the assumption that no one can know how others experience discrimination except through description or data points. It says nothing about whether or not a male can know how a female feels, because it doesn't deal with gendered analysis and instead relies on how human beings interact as a whole when conveying their experiences.
 
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Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
Wrong, all his counterarguments contain the assumption that no one can know how others experience discrimination except through description or data points. It says nothing about whether or not a male can know how a female feels, because it doesn't deal with gendered analysis and instead relies on how human beings interact as a whole when conveying their experiences.
My point was namely that he is asserting that women can understand how other women feel through description but for some reason, men cannot. He is also saying that for this reason, men know significantly less about discrimination against women and are therefore less fit to talk about it. But if both women and men rely on description, where is the difference?
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
My point was namely that he is asserting that women can understand how other women feel through description but for some reason, men cannot. He is also saying that for this reason, men know significantly less about discrimination against women and are therefore less fit to talk about it. But if both women and men rely on description, where is the difference?

Nope my point is women know what they experience. They share and compare experiences and discover that these experiences cause similar feelings.

Of course they can share these experiences with men, but men have nothing similar to compare them to. On the basest level, men can't know what women go through. They can listen to women and know that their experiences are true, but it's knowledge based on trust, not first hand experience or innate understanding.

@TheFederation

The point I'm making is regarding women in STEM and other traditionally male dominated fields. Men dominate these fields, not because women aren't interested, but rather because women are seen as less competent because they are women, among other things.
 
@TheFederation

The point I'm making is regarding women in STEM and other traditionally male dominated fields. Men dominate these fields, not because women aren't interested, but rather because women are seen as less competent because they are women, among other things.
I concede that. I was never of the belief that that wasn't the case.
 

Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
Nope my point is women know what they experience. They share and compare experiences and discover that these experiences cause similar feelings.

Of course they can share these experiences with men, but men have nothing similar to compare them to. On the basest level, men can't know what women go through. They can listen to women and know that their experiences are true, but it's knowledge based on trust, not first hand experience or innate understanding.
Women can only speculate through description in their minds what other women feel like. If men hear description of what women experience, they too can speculate in their minds what women feel like. Women hearing the descriptions of other women is not first-hand experience or innate understanding.

How exactly have you yourself verified that women have similar feelings, again?
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
Women can only speculate through description in their minds what other women feel like. If men hear description of what women experience, they too can speculate in their minds what women feel like. Women hearing the descriptions of other women is not first-hand experience or innate understanding.

How exactly have you yourself verified that women have similar feelings, again?

Ok, let me put it this way. Would you ever go up to a cancer patient and say "I know what you're going through?"(asuming of course you've never had cancer)

(Yes I know this isn't the same thing, but it's the same concept)
 

Aegiscalibur

Add Witty Title Here
Ok, let me put it this way. Would you ever go up to a cancer patient and say "I know what you're going through?"(asuming of course you've never had cancer)

(Yes I know this isn't the same thing, but it's the same concept)
And could another cancer patient do that? How would you know whether all cancer patients have the same experiences?

Why would things like gender and cancer somehow be the only relevant properties? Everyone has a unique way of thinking. Under your system, nobody can know for sure what anybody else is experiencing and all similarities are just speculation in their minds. Which is fine per se but you need to use it consistently. It is absurd to say that all women can know how all other women feel but no man can know how any woman feels.
 
(Yes I know this isn't the same thing, but it's the same concept)
Not really. Nobody who hasn't had cancer can relate to how it feels to have cancer, but the same isn't true for human interactions. Everyone interacts with others. Women can have similar experiences, but you have yet to consolidate these experiences into a single "only females can understand" archetype.

Everyone experiences negative interactions with other people, and quite frankly, I think it's disgusting that you would compare such a thing to cancer.
 
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