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Final Battle! Ash VS Kukui!! (1084)

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
You can't say it was too short as if nothing happened when inceniroar clearly took damage not once but twice.

Incineroar did take some notable damage so in terms of the whole battle that might count as crucial/important, but from the viewers perspective it's still just too brief to get any enjoyment out of it. Counting that is pretty much equivalent to saying that Paul's Magmortar vs Barry's Empoleon (in the Paul vs Barry Sinnoh League match) was a "battle" where Empoleon landed a hit with Hydro Cannon and Paul recalled it immediately afterwards.
 
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diakyu

Well-Known Member
Incineroar did take some notable damage so in terms of the whole battle that might count as crucial/important, but from the viewers perspective it's still just too brief to get any enjoyment out of it.
I definitely felt enjoyment out of seeing lycanroc do the cool thing with his stone edge, reminded me of krookodile. It was new and exciting to see lycanroc do it, but I guess if you felt nothing then we should leave it up to taste.
 

AuraGuardian448

Aura Guardian
Behind yet again. Was one episode behind at one point, but then the weeks just kept flying by, so now i'm 2-3 if not more.

Kukai's identity being blown was only inevitable, just like Blaziken Mask.

Nice to see the relationship with Pikachu and Ayogon still intact even after the latter's evolution.

All of the Mom and Okido's interactions and scenes are so good to see. Very exciting to see them see Satoshi at one of his finest moments. One glaring issue, though, is the blatant absence of Takeshi and Kasumi. Just like Mom, they were also recurring this series, so you'd legitimately think TPC would bring them back in Alola to see Satoshi partake in the Alola League. What the actual hell?

Gotta commend Satoshi a bit for training Melmetal some before the match, which heavily implies he seemingly learned from his mistake with it in its prior battle. Now hopefully it takes a victory or two. If Snorlax, one of Satoshi's top strongest Pokemon who for some weird reason is constantly overlooked in "Satoshi's strongest Pokemon" discussions, was able to do exceptionally great.. then you can to Melmetal. I gave you the pass on your first match, because you was matched up against Silvally... in a 3v3... with Satoshi's other Pokemon being his ace and strongest Alola Pokemon, neither of which could look bad.

The second interaction with Nyaheat didn't go unnoticed (just like Tapu Ko Ko's brief appearance, etc), but Pikachu briefly supporting it was a more appealing detail to me personally, as details like Nyaheat's sac emitting a lot of its emotion is among the things the anime should be showing off normally (just like Lucario's appendages reacting when it reads or manipulates aura, Buizel's inflatable sac, etc.). The fact it also produced a reaction from the other (companion) fire Pokemon in the crowd was interesting. Meanwhile, there was a lack of the surprise reveal reaction from Nyaheat finding out RM and Kukai are the same person. While i'm on this subject, I always found it weird that both it and Lugarugan never so much as even suspected they were the same person throughout the series.

6v6 Battle! :O Yes! Hopefully it's at least slightly better than Satoshi vs Alan or Shota (can't remember which of the two I liked the least), which was underwhelming in some areas. Hopefully there isn't a double knock out at some point in the fight, like Pikachu vs Latios at Sinnoh League, Noivern vs Salamence at Kalos League, Unfezant vs Talonflame at Kalos League, Goodra vs a Pokemon I can't remember(Slurpuff?) at Kalos League, etc -_-. I like how Pikachu is so anxious about the match, which better translates to it kicking ass when used later. And would you look at that, Pikachu did exactly what it is I criticized it for not doing in the battle with Gladio: cheering on Satoshi's other Pokemon (and more than once at that), wow.

Gladio still being around is a bit surprising.

First battle with Nyaheat and Gaogaen was actually fairly good and has a good amount of depth considering the length. This little mid-staged fire starter sure is setting the bar and surpassing quite the expectations, between learning Fire Blast and nullifying a Blast Burn with its bare body and will alone. (Pignite is still a badass, too, though.) Speaking of which, the Blast Burn cancellation is partially reminiscent of Fletchling's evolution into Fletchinder, even though Nyaheat didn't evolve (which hopefully it stays that way). I'm sure there's a more appropriately comparative example, but I can't think of one right now. The absorption of the move and the state it left Nyaheat in, also reminded me of when Grotle absorbed Energy Ball and of course other similar-ish situations with Satoshi's Pokemon. Now the fact that it couldn't maintain it completely, sucks :( but Satoshi promised it'd have a second chance, and he usually delivers on those type of promises when he's not just mindlessly talking out of his ass, so I still believe in Nyaheat. However, that return moment for it is still pretty emotional. Lastly "Blast Nyaheat"... oh yeah gotta mention this one, as it's classic Satoshi. Getting those kind of Satoshi moments in this fight is a treat.

As for the even shorter Lugarugan vs Gaogaen battle.. not going to say much here, but I love the way it was handled while it lasted, especially since Lug's successful attempt(s) at attacking Gao resulted in Kukai switching it out, which potentially avoided Lug getting eliminated early, if not have taken a relatively large amount of damage. (Find it extremely respectful considering it's the Champion's Pokemon that got him the title.) He kept it in the fight after Nyaheat because it was still incredibly healthy, so him recalling it during the fight with Lug is blatant proof that Lug landed a successful and relatively powerful strike. Even the animation shows Gao clearly being phased by the attack in two utter ways: it holding its arm and flinching. Lastly, I obviously have to at least briefly mention that cool shard moment that was so like the time Satoshi's Krookodile used its shard against Brycen (whatever his name is) at the ice gym in Unova/BW. Great stuff, especially for a rock type. I absolutely love in this anime when Pokemon actually perform actions that specifically relate to their typing or personality.

(Lana claiming Satoshi can win, his opponent's ace having Blast Burn, his opponent being the elderly character Satoshi typically loses against in his final battles, and the opponent again having an impressive background detail precisely of beating multiple trainers consecutively with his ace... all reminiscent of Satoshi vs Alan. Yeah, i'm justifiably terrified, now. I can see the writers easily having Satoshi lose and justifying his lost because they figured they perhaps gave the audience a bone by finally having Satoshi win a league, whether it was planned out that way or out of pity for his Kalos lost. Honestly... I view this as the true final league match, as the official finals acted moreso like the typical rival fights that happen at the league instead, especially with that explicit 3v3 format that in noway should ever be how the final match is represented and concluded. Satoshi won the AL—I will will not take that away from him—but in a way it feels like Kukai is the actual final opponent in the same vein as Harrison, Tyson, Tobias, Virgil, and Alan, that was stripped away maybe even in a way to prevent him from losing this league, while the real final match was moreso in the vein of the rival league battles against Gary, Paul, Cameron, and Sawyer. Even if he beats Kukai, the final league match will still be weird at least for different reasons.)

Wonder if they'll later show the detail of Gaogaen's belt actually change dynamically (like it did in "I Choose You")? I expect so considering the detail with Nyaheat and even Incineroar when its belt briefly flickered. Also wonder how the Lucario match is going to go and who it's going to defeat (assuming) and be defeated by. They know better than to have it K.O. Pikachu, regardless of how many Pokemon Pikachu were to defeat prior. Also, Satoshi has fought and interacted with numerous Lucario now, it's pretty crazy.

If Satoshi keeps that Agoyon, honestly... this will at least make up for him getting rid of Goodra, well mostly anyway. (I mean, pseudo legendary vs flying-ultra beast. Seems like fair compensation to me.) However, like Goodra, he probably won't keep it, especially since it has Thunderbolt (they can't have Satoshi having two different Pokemon with Thunderbolt now can they <_<), is an Ultra Beast, and Satoshi already has a (fully evolved) mythical. But man, at least it'd also be the perfect 6th Pokemon to conclude Satoshi's team for this generation (even though it has Pikachu's signature attack), especially since unlike Goodra it can actually fly.

Interestingly, James still doesn't know Royal Mask's true identity. That ought to be fun when he finds out, if he finds out.

Onto the next episode...
 
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LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
great episode.

First time i can remember in a 6on6 that no Pokémon fall in the first episode. I would expect nothing less from the longest battle in the history of the show

Why did Gladion react like that when Ash sent out Lycanroc? especially that weird noise LOL

I'm glad Lycanroc wasn't fodder.. that's what I thought might happen when Ash sent it out.. considering it did well in the Gladion battle and I thought the writers might consider that to be enough for Lycanroc this league
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
It's no spoiler that it boils down to Pikachu doing what it does best: stealing the limelight from pokémon who need it more
Tbh, L
ycanroc had already gotten a lot of limelight, though not on the league
 
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LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Oh you poor soul.....
I don't know what happens next, but I do know Lycanroc did enough damage to Incineroar to force Professor Kukui to withdraw it. That's enough for me. I'm not as obsessed with "wins" and other such stats.. that's why I'm also fine with Melmetal damaging Silvally enough for Pikachu to take it out in one move.. Melmetal may not have gotten the "win" as people who are obsessed with such stats will say, but it did a good job. Lycanroc damaging Incineroar to make it withdraw is enough for me. When I said it wasn't fodder, I just meant it wasn't eliminated without doing anything, which is what I got worried would happen when Ash sent it out.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I don't know what happens next, but I do know Lycanroc did enough damage to Incineroar to force Professor Kukui to withdraw it. That's enough for me. I'm not as obsessed with "wins" and other such stats.. that's why I'm also fine with Melmetal damaging Silvally enough for Pikachu to take it out in one move.. Melmetal may not have gotten the "win" as people who are obsessed with such stats will say, but it did a good job. Lycanroc damaging Incineroar to make it withdraw is enough for me. When I said it wasn't fodder, I just meant it wasn't eliminated without doing anything, which is what I got worried would happen when Ash sent it out.

Glad to see this mindset tbh it's really refreshing. I want to say more about this and how some people complain but that might spoil some stuff that happens next and i dont wanna do that for you
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
I guess Nagadel's return isn't such a big deal (or ANY deal) compared to the cluster**** that is your teacher being the (grandpa-sounding) wrestler. Ash, you idiot. You should have punched Kukui in the face for LYING to you for HOURS since you got to Alola. But nooooooooooo, 's all good because he turned out to be the shirtless weirdo you like to fight.

Hau: We're part of group shots now! What do we need to do?
Gladion: Just react and we'll get our paychecks. We absolutely really don't have any relation or interest in Kukui or his "secret" identity, so don't say anything or else we may get the boot.
Hau: ...I got introduced way too late and cheated out of a win for this? Ugh.

Burnet, don't feel guilty about your horrendous time management with your husband. Ash had it even worse than you for having way too many times to even tell Kukui's strange absence during the weekends(?). You two just really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, very much, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, REALLY, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really suck at putting the least kind of effort keeping tabs on him.

...And I guess his fans aren't bum-rushing to get his autograph either. Everyone just takes it as if it's something they already knew. Even Faba, who dressed up into...something, doesn't rush for a handshake. Geez. Way to devalue his reveal.

Now for the battle itself.

Geez. The Incineroar vs. Torracat part dragged out a lot. It was all about Torracat playing to his speed and Incineroar stupidly standing around, slowly moving his head, before hitting hard. It comes across as narmy after Kukui boasted about Incineroar having no blind points with a 360 field of vision, which is stupid in itself since he has no pigeon sight. There's also the inconsistency of using Bulk Up but yet Incineroar doesn't turn into a (caricature) hulk of himself like before. There was also a LOT of talking for my tastes, and the Blast Burn bit lasted THREE minutes and change. Moreover, the last time someone used Blast Burn (stop grinning, you), the drawback of lowering your Sp. Atk...er...remain immobile never came up, but this time, it does to a highly trained ace who has surely worked out for YEARS (yes, we can use this time sample for real now). I think the battle had to drag out because they really can't give anyone else in Kukui's team any more longevity than Incineroar, so it comes across as cheap to slow things down with people talking.

It's also a bit hilarious one single strike from Sunny D-roc's rock is meant to be pointed out a serious damage when Incineroar's arm doesn't look worse for wear. Are scratch marks too bloody to show now? I'd have liked to see the attack connect rather than a cheap skip transition to imply it hit. It was cool in the roaring 90s, but it ain't cool after it's been overdone since then, OLM.

Overall, this was a rather weak first episode for what's to come.
 
Me when I saw Blast Burn: Kalos League PTSD

So Torracat, who is weaker than Greninja is able to take a Blast Burn while Greninja can't. LOL. Yes I know that Greninja was already damaged and that MCX was OP Yes I know that Greninja's defense stat is ****, that Incineroar is weaker than MCX and that Blast Burn always crits. It still feels wrong to see Blast Burn helping Ash instead of blowing up in his face when it shouldn't have. Greninja should have dodged.
 
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CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Me when I saw Blast Burn: Kalos League PTSD

So Torracat, who is weaker than Greninja is able to take a Blast Burn while Greninja can't. Yes I know that Greninja was already damaged and that MCX was OP, but I wish Ash won. Yes I know that Greninja's defense stat is ****, that Incineroar is weaker than MCX and that Blast Burn always crits. It still feels wrong to see Blast Burn helping Ash instead of blowing up in his face when it shouldn't have. Greninja should have dodged.
That's because BB from Incineroar is much weaker than BB from MCX? Lol.
 
I don't like the XY vs SM comparisons, but I definitely can agree with this one, well, probably not much weaker, but certainly weaker based on what we see about Alain's MCX
Alain's MCX was plot armor to keep Ash from winning.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
I don't like the XY vs SM comparisons, but I definitely can agree with this one, well, probably not much weaker, but certainly weaker based on what we see about Alain's MCX
It depends on integrity of weakness between mid+ FB level Pokemon and Base Champion+ Ace level Pokemon. From my understanding it's much weaker since Champion aces even in Base are basically super strong(MCX is above that but not that much).Only thing that surpasses them is their Mega forms and now Dynamax/Gigamantax.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
It depends on integrity of weakness between mid+ FB level Pokemon and Base Champion+ Ace level Pokemon. From my understanding it's much weaker since Champion aces even in Base are basically super strong( only thing that surpasses them is their Mega forms) and now Dynamax/Gigamantax.

I think MCX is between High E4 and Champion level, meanwhile Kukui's Incineroar is between Low E4 and Mid E4 level, and that puts Ash's Incineroar in a similar level of Low E4-Mid E4 because technically that battle was a tie

Alain's MCX was plot armor to keep Ash from winning.

It was not plot armor, Alain's MCX was legitimately stronger and it had better results with more impressive feats
 
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