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Final thoughts on Team Flare

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johno1995

Well-Known Member
XY Ash started out with a good balance: the first few episodes showcased an Ash with personality and yet brimming with confidence, which I loved. The first XY episode in particular was a really good one for Ash, it seemed to set him in a good direction. I really like that the writers made him competent and gave him a strong team for this region, but they should've been able to balance his personality a bit more because by XY040-50ish he dragged down into DP-levels of blandness. It's almost as if they don't know how to make Ash a goofy, fun character while also making him a competent trainer. It's puzzling.

I did, however, appreciate his bromance with Clemont. The best interaction he's had with a companion since May or Dawn imo. Ash's excitement over science could've gone somewhere, and I'd have liked to see him more upbeat and excited about science throughout the season, perhaps volunteering to be Clemont's test dummy on multiple new inventions just to give him a bit more eccentricity and bring in more comedy from his character. I'm curious to see how they handle SM Ash, but I definitely think that XY Ash wasn't the worst Ash.

My favorite would be AG for its good balance and development of Ash's character, and least favorite would be BW or DP, depending on if we're looking at his lack of competence in the former or complete devoid of personality in the latter, lol.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Awesome version of Ash, the best IMO. Only thing that I hated is Ash not catching at least one more Pokemon, I don't mean BW-amount. I wanted to see at least one in rotation; so 7. I wanted his team to be: Pikachu, Avalugg, Trevenant, Greninja, Hawlucha, Talonflame and Noivern. Not too fond of Goodra.
Also, I hated how he didn't use his older Pokemon in a league and how they didn't show Ash vs Astrid in full episode and one more Ash's battle in full.
Everything else is amazing.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
He was probably in his best. People can complain all they want about "he don't have a personality, he's not funny" yadda yadda, but, hell, Ash have some specifical trait that's focused a lot every saga, I'm glad they focused in turning him into an ace trainer this time. He felt as a legitim veteran triying to level up his game (no pun) and still loyal to his core and I had fun with XY(Z) Ash.

The only thing that bothers me it's, all that pokemon of the week he trained, but he's not only got just 5 Kalosmon, but is releasing 2. I mean, what the actual heck...?

Exactly this.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I liked that XY Ash was a competent, even bad*** Trainer, who was admired by the people around him for his skills and unconventional battle style. I enjoyed watching how he overcame the challenges he faced. It was also nice that he wasn't portrayed as much of an idiot. I mean, the kid may be book dumb, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have some brains. :p

I also liked seeing more of the mature side of Ash. He was still hot-blooded and a bit goofy (seriously, who else falls down a flight of stairs trying to disembark a plane?); but since he wasn't surrounded by people - friends or rivals - who criticized, insulted, or picked on him on a regular basis, we saw less of the bratty Ash and more of the gentle Ash.

His emotions became a little more subdued during XY&Z, but that only bothered me during the Kalos League finale. (Not a single hint of disappointment that he came this close to winning the League? Really, Ash?)
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Yeah the Kalos League was the only time his "lack of personality" actually hindered my enjoyment of him because it was so awful how Ash didn't even seem to care at all about losing by the skin of his teeth and just shrugged it off
 

satopi

Go’s Scizor needs to Hassam better episodes:/
Ash had personality, it just didn't appear as often. Are you all forgetting about him proclaiming to the entire Kalos region that he was finally there only to fall down a set of stairs? Or at how excited he was at seeing all the new Pokemon in Lumiose City that he nearly ran into people walking on the streets? I mean, XY Ash was great. Nothing more to it. I'm sorry that people want him bickering with his companions but at this point in time there shouldn't be any bickering from Ash, he's been through six regions and matured a lot.

And for those who say Ash was mostly bland, are you all forgetting about how he wanted to dance as a strategy against Korrina? Just look at how bad he was yet he had a fun time with that. Or the fact he threw a temper tantrum because he couldn't face Viola right away? Or maybe how he got very excited every time Clemont showed a new invention. Or how he also was annoyed and impatient with Ramos for not holding the battle right away. There are plenty of moments throughout XY (&Z) where Ash had personality but everyone likes to forget about it.
Yes we've seen those examples or a few moments where he had a silly face but it doesn't excuse him from people saying that he was mostly bland. Which he was. Mind you that those examples you listed happened in the first few episodes of XY and a lot of the funny faces he made were in admiration of Clemont's invention gag since he believes that Science is so amazing... which is a gag. Also, even with those examples, they're still few and far. Using a dance strategy doesn't mean that Ash has a personality, that's just a technique he wanted to incorporate in his battling to spice things up and use it to his advantage.
Most people don't want him always bickering with the group but it's just a bit weird if they barely had anything to disagree or argue about since they all admire Ash, calling him cool and aspiring to be like him. Once again, just because Ash traveled to 6 regions and matured a lot doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any bickering from him/his traveling companions. That doesn't make sense. It's a problem to not argue/bicker/disagree and is just as bad as arguing/bickering/disagreeing all the time. I wouldn't say arguing was the real problem, it's just that all of them act almost the exact same way to each other that there doesn't seem to be much defined dynamics. There was the bromance & sisterly bond between Ash/Clemont and Serena/Bonnie but it faded away over time. It's to the point where if any of them (aside from Ash) left then nothing would've been different.

Honestly, Ash didn't turn into this "SUper serious motivational speaker" until XYZ began and honestly it should have been expected with how the Flare Arc turned out. Like, yes, he had Shonen characteristics but everyone on this site seems to blow it out of proportion.
What I mean by "motivational speaker" is that the basic inspiring words like "never give up!" or "If you try then you'll never fail" just magically made everyone in the group have this newfound courage to do their best. And no, it wasn't primarily XY(&Z), that speech to Alan was really the only one I remember from Ash. Serena's character revolved around Ash's influence and words (Serena reciting what he said as a kid when she finally found him, the talk before the haircut scene, the ribbon). Same with Clemont. He puts some more importance in Ash's words that it inspired him to get stronger and more confident (Ash vs Clemont battle, his character song.) And where are people blowing it out of proportion?! I can list the stereotypical shonen traits that XY Ash possess just like I did with Serena's crush. (motivating words and inspiring people to do better, focusing on only getting stronger, token love interest, power coming from bonds, rash actions praised as brave, always thinking there's good in anyone besides the obvious bad guys, glorified badass whose flaws are barely pointed out, selfless to the point where he's not upset about being a sore loser because he's oh so mature, seen as the go to person to listen to, etc)
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Yes we've seen those examples or a few moments where he had a silly face but it doesn't excuse him from people saying that he was mostly bland. Which he was. Mind you that those examples you listed happened in the first few episodes of XY and a lot of the funny faces he made were in admiration of Clemont's invention gag since he believes that Science is so amazing... which is a gag. Also, even with those examples, they're still few and far. Using a dance strategy doesn't mean that Ash has a personality, that's just a technique he wanted to incorporate in his battling to spice things up and use it to his advantage.
Most people don't want him always bickering with the group but it's just a bit weird if they barely had anything to disagree or argue about since they all admire Ash, calling him cool and aspiring to be like him. Once again, just because Ash traveled to 6 regions and matured a lot doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any bickering from him/his traveling companions. That doesn't make sense. It's a problem to not argue/bicker/disagree and is just as bad as arguing/bickering/disagreeing all the time. I wouldn't say arguing was the real problem, it's just that all of them act almost the exact same way to each other that there doesn't seem to be much defined dynamics. There was the bromance & sisterly bond between Ash/Clemont and Serena/Bonnie but it faded away over time. It's to the point where if any of them (aside from Ash) left then nothing would've been different.


What I mean by "motivational speaker" is that the basic inspiring words like "never give up!" or "If you try then you'll never fail" just magically made everyone in the group have this newfound courage to do their best. And no, it wasn't primarily XY(&Z), that speech to Alan was really the only one I remember from Ash. Serena's character revolved around Ash's influence and words (Serena reciting what he said as a kid when she finally found him, the talk before the haircut scene, the ribbon). Same with Clemont. He puts some more importance in Ash's words that it inspired him to get stronger and more confident (Ash vs Clemont battle, his character song.) And where are people blowing it out of proportion?! I can list the stereotypical shonen traits that XY Ash possess just like I did with Serena's crush. (motivating words and inspiring people to do better, focusing on only getting stronger, token love interest, power coming from bonds, rash actions praised as brave, always thinking there's good in anyone besides the obvious bad guys, glorified badass whose flaws are barely pointed out, selfless to the point where he's not upset about being a sore loser because he's oh so mature, seen as the go to person to listen to, etc)

I hope you realize a lot of your complaints that you're dumping on XY Ash's traits have been with his character long before this saga, except now it's suddenly a bad thing for some reason
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Most people don't want him always bickering with the group but it's just a bit weird if they barely had anything to disagree or argue about since they all admire Ash, calling him cool and aspiring to be like him. Once again, just because Ash traveled to 6 regions and matured a lot doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any bickering from him/his traveling companions. That doesn't make sense. It's a problem to not argue/bicker/disagree and is just as bad as arguing/bickering/disagreeing all the time. I wouldn't say arguing was the real problem, it's just that all of them act almost the exact same way to each other that there doesn't seem to be much defined dynamics. There was the bromance & sisterly bond between Ash/Clemont and Serena/Bonnie but it faded away over time. It's to the point where if any of them (aside from Ash) left then nothing would've been different.

IMHO, this is not so much a problem with Ash himself or with his character, as it is a problem with the XY(&Z) main cast as a whole - specifically, how Ash's friends viewed and treated him. Neither Serena, Clemont, nor Bonnie ever pushed Ash's Brash Brat Buttons. They rarely criticized, insulted, or picked on him...or gave him a reason to be anything other than his default kind, easygoing self around them. Ash normally isn't the type to start an argument himself (unless it's with someone with whom he has a history of bickering, e.g, Misty). Usually, Ash's temperamental side has to be triggered, and his friends never triggered it.

I do agree with you that the lack of bickering among the main cast was a problem and made all of them, including Ash, appear a bit bland (for lack of a better word) when they were interacting with each other. I guess my point is that I don't think this is entirely Ash's fault. He needed at least one friend with whom he occasionally disagreed.

Now, then, who could have filled that role best? Surely not "love-stricken" Serena or doormat Clemont. I guess that leaves Bonnie, then? :p
 

qazplmwsxo

Well-Known Member
His reaction after his defeat to Alain in the league is a example of poor writting.
This is not a sign of mature,this is why people accuse him of no personality.
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Better than "Best Wishes!", but I still prefer Ash in DP a little bit more than XY. If nothing else, they're on equal.

OR/AG being just below XY and DP, but still over BW.
 

Janovy

Banned
Oh my God guys please stop with all the bashing. :)
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Alain was a nice, fresh new face for the series; I like him. But presentation... yeah. Could have been better, so he's around "mediocre" level for me.
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Team Flare was good; a solid "good". Nothing too bad, nor that amazing. At the very least, the arc was well done, and included several characters to fight for Kalos. Can't say I didn't enjoy that finale.
 

MasterTobias

Well-Known Member
The stereotypical traits of shonen heroes wrapped into one cardboard box. Dull motivational speaker who somehow magically inspired people to do better despite this could've been said by anyone close to said character, and cared only about getting stronger, battling, and bonds with Pokemon. The only thing I see that hasn't changed is his "bonds are everything" philosophy. I liked that he was competent and a stronger trainer but it doesn't help that I couldn't care about him outside of it. His emotions outside of the default could've been shown more like when he was sad/frustrated in the depression arc for a few minutes or when he was so into getting stronger with Greninja, he fainted and pushed himself too hard (I almost cried in that scene ;.; ) or when the Gym Leaders were getting manhandled by the Legendary Big Rock, you can tell that he looked pained through every hit. He was too glorified in this season, there wasn't much conflict for him (not even with Shota, Sanpei, COTD, or Alan). It seems like the only thing people like about XY Ash is because of his progression as a competent, strong battler, he's mature, badass, and doesn't act stupid (despite having rash actions at times), and Ash Greninja. I did like it on how he always supported his group, kind of acting like a leader and his bromance with Clemont. Also having an inner look on what he was thinking before he fainted.

I just want to start caring for Ash as a person again, not only Ash as a competent trainer.

From the beggining though ash was a stereotypical shonen hero,in OS he was more sarcastic than your usual type but that was his only difference from the stereotype.After OS while the series progressed a lot of more emphasis was put on his mature side during AG,DP,XY.Caring about Ash outside of battles is something almost impossible to begin with since thats where his struggles and progression as a character come from,heck even his daddy isues which they were never touched upon has their core coming from battling relating stuff.But yeah he was missing a rival that conflicted with his current character.Also that depens on what conflict you think its ok to have within the group,if its small related things like flowers then we got to wonder why these people travel together,if it is something like dissagreeing with what town they should go since they have different destinations then i agree.
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
Team Flare was good; a solid "good". Nothing too bad, nor that amazing. At the very least, the arc was well done, and included several characters to fight for Kalos. Can't say I didn't enjoy that finale.

Echo this sentiment. For the most part it was done well, but I think it was a tad rushed and still left some questions hanging.
 

Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
To make it short, I thought this Ash was pretty good. His character did seem a bit dull, but he did have his moments (potat_lasaro pointed some of them out). Was nice to seem be the leader of the group, be mature, and help guide/inspire them along with other people during the series. Most noticable thing for me though, was his competence and battling skills where he was probably at the best he's ever been. It was cool in a way to see all these things come together in a series as a whole. As for Ash in this league, tbh I had mixed feelings. I mean I would've liked to see a couple prelim battles, but then again...after watching Ash for almost 20 yrs, he should be able to steamroll through the competition and reach the finals like they showed him do. I also liked Ash-Greninja and that whole arc too. Was a lot better idea for Ash's character than to just have a mega.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
To be short on this matter, I feel as though OS->AG->DP->XY provides a natural and believable progression for Ash in terms of both skill and maturity, so I'm really glad with the way the writers portrayed XY(Z) Ash.
 

Omegaz

Captain Amourica
Definitely my favorite Ash. He was competent and mature but at the same time still had his childish moments, but not too many to where he was portrayed like an idiot. For a guy traveling through six different regions and dealing with all the stuff he deals with, this is an ideal Ash as it shows his growth over the years. Also, I think people are so focused on the mature side of Ash's character that they ignore the fact he does have personality. XY and XYZ established the right balance between personality and maturity.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
His reaction after his defeat to Alain in the league is a example of poor writting.
This is not a sign of mature,this is why people accuse him of no personality.

Thankyou for posting this. I agree that he was happy for Alain but he could have shown a sign of sadness atleast.
 
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