Finals I: Torrent (1218)

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

I'll repeat what I posted earlier, it's not Ash's fault that he has more cards in his hand than Leon. Maybe Leon's overconfident, maybe Leon believes it's not fair to limit Ash to having to use a single Trump Card, or maybe Leon wanted to fight Ash at his absolute peak. Regardless of which it ultimately is, I can't say it's really that unfair. Leon represents Galar to a fault, so Dynamax is the only thing he knows and cares about, which is fine. But Ash has gone on a Journey just about everywhere, yeah he's from Pallet Town, yeah he represents his second home the Alola region, but he's earned the ability to use Mega Evolution, the Z-move, and Dynamax, why limit him to a single choice exactly? Because Leon only has 1? Welcome to Shonen guys, the protagonist always needs a transformation or boost of sorts to beat the final boss.

Good ole DEM

 

[Sham]

So let’s get to the bottom of this. Does Ash winning with all three of his gimmicks cheapen his win against Leon? And if it doesn’t because Ash should “have access to all his gimmicks” would Cynthia have won if she was able to use Dynamax and Mega Evolution at the same time?

If we’re going by the logic that Ash utilizing all of his gimmicks is fair because he worked hard for them and limiting him was stupid, does that essentially mean Ash fought a nerferd Cynthia? Because both of these things cant exist in the same universe.

It sounds like they remembered that Leon swept two competitors and realized there was no way in this universe that Ash beating him without those tweaks made any sense from a narrative point.

 

[Kuzehiko]

No matter how much I despise Leon.
If it takes Ash 3 gimmicks to defeat Leon while he only uses Dynamax then I can't say they fought on even conditions.

 

[Almighty Zard]

No matter how much I despise Leon.
If it takes Ash 3 gimmicks to defeat Leon while he only uses Dynamax then I can't say they fought on even conditions.

Leon was the one who wanted it, and consent was given.

It's not much different from when Tapu-Koko interjected itself into Ash vs Kakui, it was not Kakui's pokemon but it wanted to settle things with Ash and was allowed to take the place of whoever Kakui's sixth was because consent was given by both sides, which is the same here.

If Leon loses under these circumstances he can not complain about it.

but this is all i'm gonna say on the matter, back to the shadows I go due to fear.

 

[Sham]

No matter how much I despise Leon.
If it takes Ash 3 gimmicks to defeat Leon while he only uses Dynamax then I can't say they fought on even conditions.

Exactly. They should have stuck to her having a Keystone or Band. Not both, because now it calls into question a whole bunch of things. Wether Leon consented or not, it calls into question would Ash even be in the finals if he didn’t fight somebody with the same accessibility

 

[Kuzehiko]

Leon was the one who wanted it, and consent was given.

It's not much different from when Tapu-Koko interjected itself into Ash vs Kakui, it was not Kakui's pokemon but it wanted to settle things with Ash and was allowed to take the place of whoever Kakui's sixth was because consent was given by both sides, which is the same here.

If Leon loses under these circumstances he can not complain about it.

but this is all i'm gonna say on the matter, back to the shadows.

Not saying it is unfair.
3 gimmicks vs 1 isn't fighting on equal conditions. If that's what it takes Ash to defeat Leon then remove gimmicks and Leon stomps Ash with base Pokemon.

 

[Sham]

And it doesn’t seem any better that her base ace fell to a Pokémon that was actively using utilizing Mega Evolution despite having a Keystone. Yes Leon consented but fair is fair. Going by the logic that it makes logical sense that he should be using all of them means he fought a nerferd Cynthia

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

It's like if there were a death match between two people on an online videogame where both use pistols except person A allows person B to also use a bazooka and an AK-47.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Exactly. They should have stuck to her having a Keystone or Band. Not both, because now it calls into question a whole bunch of things. Wether Leon consented or not, it calls into question would Ash even be in the finals if he didn’t fight somebody with the same accessibility.

Depends though.
Does Cynthia have Dynamax in the games?
If not, then it could be considered a power-up because we never saw how she got it in the anime either.

 

[Kuzehiko]

It's like if there were a death match between two people on an online videogame where both use pistols except person A allows person B to also use a bazooka and an AK-47.

Absolutely.
You got it right there.

 

[Sham]

Depends though.
Does Cynthia have Dynamax in the games?
If not, then it could be considered a power-up because we never saw how she got it in the anime either.

That’s true but Cynthia unfortunately isn’t a main character so we’re not privy to that information nor more than Brock and Misty.

Let us not forget Cynthia was already going to use a Dynamax band first (Ash’s match were planned already and the others were afterthoughts). So it’s not like they give it to her as a power up but just evening out things.

They either should have omitted the Keystone or just rewrite Ash’s match. Having both makes this situation look crazy.

Either way Leon looks like a Champ because Ash got into the finals by beating somebody who didn’t get the same luxuries as him and then still putting up a close fight despite having 1 vs 3 gimmicks.

 

[Morax]

Welcome to Shonen guys, the protagonist always needs a transformation or boost of sorts to beat the final boss.

Except this is a stakeless sports competition. Plot armor can be overlooked if the MC has a narrative obligation to defeat the big bad guy but ash isn’t trying to save anybody here. The fact that he’s been given that extra special weapon/transformation is nothing but terrible writing.

 

[Kuzehiko]

That’s true but Cynthia unfortunately isn’t a main character so we’re not privy to that information nor more than Brock and Misty.

Right.

Let us not forget Cynthia was already going to use a Dynamax band first (Ash’s match were planned already and the others were afterthoughts). So it’s not like they give it to her as a power up but instead making it fair of gimmick vs gimmick.

I think she was nerfed for the sole fact that Garchomp couldn't use ground or fire-type moves despite having used them before in the anime.
You could make the same argument for her using Dynamax and not ME as well

They either should have omitted the Keystone from the afterthought fight or just rewrite Ash’s match. Having both makes this situation look crazy.

Cynthia uses ME in the games so it's fine by me, personally. It's not a big deal.

 

[Sham]

Right.

Yes I mean I do get your point completely but I don’t think we’ll ever know that offscreen land.

I think she was nerfed for the sole fact that Garchomp couldn't use ground or fire-type moves despite having used them before in the anime.
You could make the same argument using Dynamax and not ME as well

Yeah, I’ve explained my thoughts on that a lot and how it was pretty interesting all of the decisions they made her make during that fight but I’m not going to use the word “nerferd” or the police are gonna start quoting me. But this right here is a nerf.

Cynthia uses ME in the games so it's fine by me, personally. It's not a big deal.

And she should have used it against Ash because she actually has it in the games but unfortunately ME was just something they came with after being demanded that her and Iris fight would be animated.

 

[Satokishi]

People think Leon won't use Eternatus. The turn out might bee Charizard and Lucario double Knock out. Pikachu Z move vs Eternatus.
Its pretty wierd not seeing Rillaboom in preview. It kinda giving away Leon might be using his secret weapon at the end.

 

[Joltik-Kid]

Except this is a stakeless sports competition. Plot armor can be overlooked if the MC has a narrative obligation to defeat the big bad guy but ash isn’t trying to save anybody here. The fact that he’s been given that extra special weapon/transformation is nothing but terrible writing.

K

People think Leon won't use Eternatus. The turn out might bee Charizard and Lucario double Knock out. Pikachu Z move vs Eternatus.
Its pretty wierd not seeing Rillaboom in preview. It kinda giving away Leon might be using his secret weapon at the end.

He's not using Eternatus... His team is Charizard, Rillaboom, Cinderace, Inteleon, Mr. Rime, and Dragapult. In a Magazine scan. Where have you been exactly?

Spoiler: Clearly a fakeout amirite

 

[Kuzehiko]

Yes I mean I do get your point completely but I don’t think we’ll ever know that offscreen land.

True.
Well it's not like a Dynamax band is hard to get anyway.

Yeah, I’ve explained my thoughts on that a lot and how it was pretty interesting all of the decisions they made her make during that fight but I’m not going to use the word “nerferd” or the police are gonna start quoting me. But this right here is a nerf.

It's a nerf certainly.
Garchomp couldn't use any of her moves that would have been super effective on Lucario.
Not using Garchomp's strongest form against a ME'd Pokemon is also a nerf. It's not like Dynamax Togekiss damaged Mega-Lucario too much. Cynthia could have easily sent Togekiss, have it lose to Lucario and use Garchomp and have it ME.

And she should have used it against Ash because she actually has it in the games but unfortunately ME was just something they came with after being demanded that her and Iris fight would be animated.

Yeah and you have no idea how much that pisses me off.

 

[doofinc]

So let’s get to the bottom of this. Does Ash winning with all three of his gimmicks cheapen his win against Leon?

From my POV, and this is definitely getting into meta territory, but I view everything up until semi-finals as "test your skills within the ruleset", whereas I see the finals as "demonstrate everything you got as a trainer". Ash mastering Mega Evolution and Z-Moves is a demonstration of his skill, even from outside the battle perspective. These aren't tools that are as easy to master in the anime unlike in the games. If "everything you got" means that you didn't take the time to learn and master the other gimmicks, and instead focused on optimizing your current Pokemon without them, then I think that's fair from this POV. Now if Leon has Mega Evolution/Z-Moves and just didn't use them, then that's a different story, but I'm going to assume he just doesn't have them since we have no signs indicating that he does have them.

And if it doesn’t because Ash should “have access to all his gimmicks” would Cynthia have won if she was able to use Dynamax and Mega Evolution at the same time?

If we’re going by the logic that Ash utilizing all of his gimmicks is fair because he worked hard for them and limiting him was stupid, does that essentially mean Ash fought a nerferd Cynthia? Because both of these things cant exist in the same universe.

In this hypothetical, if we're calling Cynthia nerfed because she couldn't use all her gimmicks against Ash, then Ash was also technically nerfed at the same time since he was also limited by the rules. So it's nerfed Ash vs nerfed Cynthia. I don't think speculating the outcome of unbound Ash vs unbound Cynthia will amount to much since both just get buffed to a unknown degree.

 

[Sham]

True.
Well it's not like a Dynamax band is hard to get anyway.

Yeah Goh has it so

It's a nerf certainly.
Garchomp couldn't use any of her moves that would have been super effective on Lucario.
Not using Garchomp's strongest form against a ME'd Pokemon is also a nerf. It's not like Dynamax Togekiss damaged Mega-Lucario too much. Cynthia could have easily sent Togekiss, have it lose to Lucario and use Garchomp and have it ME.

Dynamax Togekiss only using Max Airstream within itself is just questionable without even adding everything you just correctly said.

Yeah and you have no idea how much that pisses me off.

Liked the overall battle but it reminiscence of the Hau battle where a character has a confidence they’ll win only then some unexpected craziness happens then they end up losing and crying over frustration because something unexpected happened. They could have just saved that.

It’s a combination of things because it makes the first match redundant since it wasn’t suppose to be animated and it makes the next match look like she wasn’t fighting with her max power that’s offered towards the MC.

 

[Ali.Frenstein]

Hopefully Ash defeats Leon. More than 25.5 years have passed since the Pokemon series started. It's about time.