Finals I: Torrent (1218)

[pickapika]

I also don't think it's unfair or will undermine a potential Ash victory because the champion is the one who requested it.

It will undermine the idea of Ash being the strongest or this battle reflecting his strength as a trainer, and let's be honest, that's the only reason ash winning would matter in the first place.

In character for leon? sure. But leon doesn't really matter to this story beyond what he represents as a challenge for Ash. Ash climbing the mountain works with a mountain that is solid. It falls to pieces if the mountain sudddenly gets shorter so that Ash can reach it

 

[HoundoomFan]

If Ash wins using three power-ups while Leon uses one, it’s just going to be as bad as the Roxie battle and Ash doesn’t deserve to be world champion imo. Though Roxie’s situation is fine-ish, as gym battles seem more of a test from gym leader & you don’t have to be stronger than the gym leader to be worthy of a badge, just worthy in gym leaders eyes of getting the badge (considering Ash’s experience in Unova, he shouldn’t have needed any advantage expcally such a extreme one that Roxie gave him). WCS is completely opposite, or should be, in which the BEST trainer should be World Champion. Ash wouldn’t show he’s worthy of such title if he wins with Leon purposely handicapping himself.

Though who knows, I/we may be worrying too much and Leon could still wipe the floor with Ash even with one power-up, which I’d personally find funny as well as stupid if that happened (& given how OP Leon I’d presented wouldn’t be too surprising). But still, I do dislike Leon gave himself such a disadvantage and Ash accepting to take advantage of it. It’s almost like Leon is looking down on Ash, as he didn’t let the other participants that he challenge use more than one power up like he did with Ash. And I personally find it hurting Ash’s character development accepting/using the advantage given to him.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

FINALLY watched this battle, absolutely loved it when watched it live and love it now
- TR is just the HIGHLIGHT honestly, their dialouges are always on point and wholesome. Also the line of "We will find out who has the strongest pokemon for us to capture" just screams to me that Ash and Pikachu NEED to win, itll be so poetic to see Pikachu be that and they acknowledge that while crying
- Dawn was incredible despite her short screentime, the writers REALLY nailed the dynamic and history she shares with Ash with just few of her dialouges, esp when contrasting it with Chloe. Also its still surreal to see Dawn say stuff like "thats how we cheered for him back in Sinnoh", really not used to continuity like this lol which is sad, do better Pokemon
- Shouldnt have been surprised it was a lie but yeah the people claiming Chloe came to watch just for Eevee and not for Ash, hahahaha.
The episode clearly states gettting eevee to watch an official battle was just a plus point for her, and shes mainly here to cheer on Ash more while Goh isnt there
-The animation really is so good, but I think my fav part is how SHARP the drawings were, Ash and Leon looked extra handsome in this episode, their back and forth is actually so engaging and Ash is actually talking like a Champion now. "Im impressed Mr. Dande" and the sly smug he gave to Leon when Cursed Body activated
- Goh and Ash's parallel at the start of the episode really was everything man, love them so much, sad he isnt there in person

Im just really glad Gengar got such a good last showing, he really is probably my fav JN member at this point

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

If Ash wins, he won because Leon was handicapped.
If Ash loses, he lost even though Leon was handicapped.

It's a lose-lose scenario and it's just a consequence of JN's crappy writing.

The worst part is, Leon wanted to be handicapped.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Leon is handicapped because Ash uses his full power
Make it make sense

 

[pickapika]

Leon is handicapped because Ash uses his full power
Make it make sense

think about it for like more than 5 seconds and the problem here should be obvious

 

[vondecayle]

Ash having more abilities than Leon is not neccesarily a handicap. If Leon doesn’t have the skill to use mega evolution or z-moves that’s on him. It’s almost like saying that Ash is handicapped because he doesn’t have access to certain attacks or Libero as an ability, that’s on Ash for not teaching his pokemon those attacks or catching certain pokemon with such abilities. Each trainer is obviously going to have something the other doesn’t.

 

[Lord Godwin]

Ash having more abilities than Leon is not neccesarily a handicap. If Leon doesn’t have the skill to use mega evolution or z-moves that’s on him. It’s almost like saying that Ash is handicapped because he doesn’t have access to certain attacks or Libero as an ability, that’s on Ash for not teaching his pokemon those attacks or catching certain pokemon with such abilities. Each trainer is obviously going to have something the other doesn’t.

There is no in-verse reason outside rules not allowing Leon to G-Max more than 1 of his Pokemon.
What would be nice, would be Ash mirrowing Leon and giving him a Z-bracet and Grassium or Firium-Z so he can use one of the Z-moves with Cinderace or Rillaboom. Or even Steelium-Z with Cinderace's Iron Head.
Also Leon could've totally learn to use Z-moves or Mega Evolution before the Tournament. Ash didn't have a Mega or Gigantamax outside of PIkachu before the PWT started so a World Champion like Leon wouldn't have much problems with mastering those in the meantime.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

think about it for like more than 5 seconds and the problem here should be obvious

Leon is smart enough to know what he wants and needs and what he doesnt. Likewise he made his team of full power based on not needing a mega or Z move and using his team to win, rather than wasting time going to another region and participating in trials to earn stuff
Just because he chose a different way of pursuing power, Ash should neglect his way and weaken himself? What a dumb argument
Heck Leon using a Mega would actually be weakening himself rather than strengthening

There is no in-verse reason outside rules not allowing Leon to G-Max more than 1 of his Pokemon.

Yes there are. We clearly see the Dynamax band works like the Z-ring where it NEEDS to be recharged after using once to be used again and so cant be used more than once in battle, like a Z move, UNLESS eternatus or the tapus intervene

What would be nice, would be Ash mirrowing Leon and giving him a Z-bracet and Grassium or Firium-Z so he can use one of the Z-moves with Cinderace or Rillaboom. Or even Steelium-Z with Cinderace's Iron Head.
Also Leon could've totally learn to use Z-moves or Mega Evolution before the Tournament. Ash didn't have a Mega or Gigantamax outside of PIkachu before the PWT started so a World Champion like Leon wouldn't have much problems with mastering those in the meantime.

Leon clearly shows he knows about them, but didnt pursue strength by getting them but rather relying on the current tricks he had. Why should Ash suffer for it?

 

[pickapika]

Just because he chose a different way of pursuing power,

Ash never chose ****. He lucked into the gimmicks which have nothing to do with his character

Ash should neglect his way and weaken himself? What a dumb argument

And an even dumber strawman. The criticism is a criticism of the narrative. No one has argued that, if they were in ash's shoes, they'd turn down Leon's offer.

 

[Kazuniya]

It's so weird how this whole thing is being spun as "Leon being handicapped is an okay thing because Ash should be at this strongest" while ignoring the fact that official rules were literally bent so that Ash could have more gimmicks at his disposal because he would literally lose without them.

If Ash can't beat Leon while fighting on equal grounds (which these aren't), he's not the strongest trainer nor does he deserve to win. It's as simple as that. I just don't get how people can accept this kind of victory and treat it as legitimate.

 

[pickapika]

It's so weird how this whole thing is being spun as "Leon being handicapped is an okay thing because Ash should be at this strongest" while ignoring the fact that official rules were literally bent so that Ash could have more gimmicks at his disposal because he would literally lose without them.

If Ash can't beat Leon while fighting on equal grounds (which these aren't), he's not the strongest trainer nor does he deserve to win. It's as simple as that. I just don't get how people can accept this kind of victory and treat it as legitimate.

surely cynthia, having travelled more than everyone else, should have been allowed access to the 10 z moves, 20 daimaxes, and 30 mega evolutions she must have collected as the true measure of your strength as a trainer is how much you've travelled!

Doesn't Ash want to beat her at full strength?

 

[Kazuniya]

surely cynthia, having travelled more than everyone else, should have been allowed access to the 10 z moves, 20 daimaxes, and 30 mega evolutions she must have collected as the true measure of your strength as a trainer is how much you've travelled!

Doesn't Ash want to beat her at full strength?

That's a good question.

If you really think about, since the trainers weren't allowed to fight at their full strength (going by the logic of some people), surely that means the PWC results aren't even legitimate, because the trainers weren't able to use everything at their disposal. And that's not really fair now, is it?

 

[DayQuil95]

Honestly would have been the perfect opportunity to see G-Max Inteleon and Cinderace had Leon GMaxed 3 times

 

[pickapika]

Honestly would have been the perfect opportunity to see G-Max Inteleon and Cinderace had Leon GMaxed 3 times

only if leon was blindfolded and forced to use pig-latin

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Ash never chose ****. He lucked into the gimmicks which have nothing to do with his character

What a dumb statement. SM literally shows the correlation of Z moves with his character and why he sought them, he seeks out Mega evolution to strengthen Lucario. Ash seeking out techniques to bring out the full strength of his mons has always been in character. The only "lucked" out argument I can see is maybe Dynamax, and even then for Gengar specifically Ash worked for it

It's so weird how this whole thing is being spun as "Leon being handicapped is an okay thing because Ash should be at this strongest" while ignoring the fact that official rules were literally bent so that Ash could have more gimmicks at his disposal because he would literally lose without them.

If Ash can't beat Leon while fighting on equal grounds (which these aren't), he's not the strongest trainer nor does he deserve to win. It's as simple as that. I just don't get how people can accept this kind of victory and treat it as legitimate.

How is this not on equal grounds is what's confusing me. Ash is battling with every trick up his sleeve same as Leon. The rules were bent to LIMIT Ash in the earlier rounds and Hyper Class, its so funny how youre acting its the opposite.
Its legitimate because it is a full power clash between the strongest trainers in the world in a competitive stage we know, there are no rules holding either back, Leon is fighting the way he wants, Ash is fighting the way he wants, no limits, full out fight
Acting like this fight wont cement Ash as the strongest because he didnt win while not using all the gimmicks he has as compared to Leon who is using everything He's got is absolutely ridiculous and an insane double standard

 

[Sham]

Journeys has had some issues but this ain't it. Man, Leon is amazing. This was good start to the battle, I might have my qualms with a lot of stuff but they really did this correctly. First of all, I love that Leon is strong and knows he's strong. Sure being humble is fine and all but we've had about 4+ "humble Champions" and Iris showed up late to the party. It's great having him being confident in his abilities and knowing he's earned his spot.

The whole time we have Leon portrayed as somewhat of a ditz at times but he truly shines in Pokemon battles (which I'm hearing was the intention of mirroring Ash) and it's clear he's pretty clever and very adaptive, studying things like Ash's tendency to use Gengar's transparency and also using counter shields and combining those trivial facts to counter his plan.


It's very clear that his tactic as a Champion is mentally psyching his opponents out and using that against them. Just take him completely disregarding Ash's plan of using CB and brushing it off like it was nothing while setting up Psychic Terrain. Not only discouraging Ash but at the same time turning the battle in his favor mentally and on the field. Ash acknowledging Gengar's ability and trying to use it to stop Freeze Dry was smart as well no doubt.

The music used here was amazing as well, Yuki Hayashi needs to stay the composer because he's marvelous. They even used "I can't lose!" for the second time here (the first being Haxorus vs Garchomp after it mega evolved) and I think they're gonna start using even more BW tracks like the Title Screen, I love it. Dawn being back was pleasant as well and it's nice she's technically cheered for him, two leagues now

 

[KingMinun]

Nice to watch this dubbed! Love that Dawn had been watching all of Ash’s battles in the Master 8 on television but was so excited he reached the final that she had to come out and watch for herself!

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Sooo she could've been there from the start.

 

[KingMinun]

Sooo she could've been there from the start.

She’s just demonstrating what her mother taught her. Why bother to show up for the whole thing, when you can watch it on tv and only show up if they make the final and save time just in case they don’t make it far