• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Finals IV: Partner (1221)

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Don't search Flint episode in sinnoh

Worst mistake of my life
tbh if not for that ep, while the jump is still a lot it wouldn't be that drastic. Ash was already faring well against Agatha back in AG, and while Drake did beat him pretty badly, it was like halfway through Hoenn, unlike Flint where Ash was almost at the league. Heck while Bertha was holding back, Torterra still did pretty well.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
blame the previous series Ash post BF was already at E4 level as it was implied that those trainers are E4 equivalent and Ash was the BF champion but then that infamous Flint Episode....

.... Let's pretend that DP165 never happened
1) Ash was also destroyed by Bertha in Sinnoh.

2) Based on Paul's performance against Cynthia and Aaron and Lucian's performance against her; we can also assume that Aaron and Lucian would have done the same against him.

Scot only implies that some of the BF members are able to hold their own against the Elite four in the subs.
I don't think there was ever an outright claim that stated all the BF members are = Elite Four.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
tbh if not for that ep, while the jump is still a lot it wouldn't be that drastic. Ash was already faring well against Agatha back in AG, and while Drake did beat him pretty badly, it was like halfway through Hoenn, unlike Flint where Ash was almost at the league. Heck while Bertha was holding back, Torterra still did pretty well.
How did Ash do well against Agatha?

She wasn't fazed for a second and was in complete control. I mean sure; she didn't one shot Ash but neither did Flint.
 

masdog

What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
tl;dr: Blame Ash's meteoric rise on the anime being allowed to do what it should have been doing for 20+ years rather than being forced into reset after reset to keep it fresh for each never generation of fans.

Its not bad writing, its a massive fault of how prior seasons had to handicap Ash as a very strong (but Not Too Strong) trainer.

Its the same reason why Leon, the only Champion with no side gig, got taken as a Tobias-tier character and not a genuine threat.

This. The anime, first and foremost, is a marketing tool. Ash’s story progression from rookie trainer in Kanto to globe-trotting world champion has always taken a back seat to whatever marketing wants while keeping it just entertaining enough to keep people watching.

So yeah, I can see why it comes off as weird/rushed/bad/awkward when he suddenly leapfrogs a bunch of levels to become world champion. But it’s not the fault of the JN writing - it’s 25 years of the show catching up to them.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
How did Ash do well against Agatha?

She wasn't fazed for a second and was in complete control. I mean sure; she didn't one shot Ash but neither did Flint.
ok "faring well" may have been too much, but he still didn't get completely stomped and got a few good hits in
 

Shego

The Pokémon Explorer
My stars! Ash has emerged victorious over Leon and his overwhelming Charizard. This battle has me nerve-wrecking that my heart is going to pound. Seeing Pikachu fainting like that me make think that he and Ash are going to lose. But the flashbacks of all of Ash's pokemon and his buddy somehow manage to get Pikachi back up on his feet. And proceed to take down Charizard one last time. And then, Ash and Pikachu won the whole thing. This makes me so happy that I actually proud of him. After all this years, Ash has become an ultimate trainer now. Everyone he knows, including his friends, his family, his pokemon, and his girlfriend, Serena, are so happy. This makes me want to cry in tears.
 

Thesnowmander11

Well-Known Member
i almost forgot about this episode today lol i’m gonna watch it now but i seen spoilers. I really hope this isn’t the end for ash but all the cameos gave so much memories I can’t believe they showed may again tho
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
ok "faring well" may have been too much, but he still didn't get completely stomped and got a few good hits in
Maybe rewatch the fight. He lands one attack on Gengar and Agatha expected it and wasn't fazed one bit.

"A Good hit in" would be something like the Ash vs Diantha fight.
 

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
Even Elite 4 members have also been shown as way out of Ash's league (Hi, Flint!) to a degree that never made sense

It made sense, those people were career trainers that had been doing this since before Satoshi was born and were some of the best trainers in their home regions, while Satoshi was still someone who was being challenged by the battles he had against gym leaders, gatekeepers for being allowed entry into a regional tournament said career trainers aren't participating in. Of course they were out of the league of someone who had never even won a regional league.
 

BlobbiBoi

Well-Known Member
It made sense, those people were career trainers that had been doing this since before Satoshi was born and were some of the best trainers in their home regions, while Satoshi was still someone who was being challenged by the battles he had against gym leaders, gatekeepers for being allowed entry into a regional tournament said career trainers aren't participating in. Of course they were out of the league of someone who had never even won a regional league.

Satoshi had by the time of flint been through three regions, beaten twenty-plus total gyms, had masses of experience and even stopped world-ending threats.

Flint was almost comical in how they portrayed the power gap between him and Ash, which is my point - Ash even by that point should have been able to give a solid showing of it. He was never allowed to. Elite 4 members and Champions were always kept out of his way.

So how was Ash ever meant to improve? That's the fault of the anime for 25 years, not Journey's. Journey's was just showing the progression someone of Ash's skills SHOULD have had by now.

Getting an endless legacy role like this is jackpot for a VA. You'll always have money for tomorrow's bread no matter what.

She also seems to genuinely love the role.
 

Celebitwo

Celebi Clone
I joked a few weeks back that a following episode might be titled "Journey's End! Ash - Pokemon Master of the World!"

They could run with that title now.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
It made sense, those people were career trainers that had been doing this since before Satoshi was born and were some of the best trainers in their home regions, while Satoshi was still someone who was being challenged by the battles he had against gym leaders, gatekeepers for being allowed entry into a regional tournament said career trainers aren't participating in. Of course they were out of the league of someone who had never even won a regional league.
I disagree with regard to your point that them being "Career Trainers, Older & having more experience" means that they should always be > Ash

Even from a real-world context; there's always Young talent overtaking the experienced older players in several different fields.

That said, I agree that it seems like a stretch for someone who struggles against Gym Leaders and someone who has failed to win Regional Leagues; to be able to reach this level.

As @BlobbiBoi mentioned, this isn't Journey's fault. The lack of consistency has to do with the writing across all previous Regions.
 

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
So how was Ash ever meant to improve? That's the fault of the anime for 25 years, not Journey's. Journey's was just showing the progression someone of Ash's skills SHOULD have had by now.

"It's not bad writing to have Spider-man punch out Galactus, it was all those thousands of stories that showed him not being able to do that that were bad writing".

Come on, man. Ignoring a character's entire history and just having them do what you want them to do is not good writing.
Would it be bad writing if Masato shows up next episode and sweeps Satoshi's entire team with his starter, or would that also just be good writing that ignores all the bad writing from earlier series that failed to establish that he should be able to do this by now?
 

BlobbiBoi

Well-Known Member
"It's not bad writing to have Spider-man punch out Galactus, it was all those thousands of stories that showed him not being able to do that that were bad writing".

Come on, man. Ignoring a character's entire history and just having them do what you want them to do is not good writing.
Would it be bad writing if Masato shows up next episode and sweeps Satoshi's entire team with his starter, or would that also just be good writing that ignores all the bad writing from earlier series that failed to establish that he should be able to do this by now?

No of course not, but my point is that Ash has no real progression at all, and yet has to progress by nature. In most other comparable series there's a clear arc of actual progression of someone's strength and showings.

When was the last time Ash got that? Johto, with his win over Gary?

Ash can defeat gym leaders and fight off world-ending threats time and time again but still somehow can't touch an Elite 4 member? Ever? Ash, who's been through 6/7 regions by now? That isn't logical in-universe for someone with that much talent and skill. People have said this in-universe about Ash before, how good he is.

The fact the anime hasn't been allowed to have him scale shouldn't be flung at the feet of Journey's. That's a fault of the anime being a tool to promote the rest of the franchise.

So rather than Journeys being a good, solid showing of a guy who's been through so much stuff its taken as massively OOC.
 
Last edited:
Top