Fire Emblem Discussion

[Waldorf]

Every game with multiple characters has this problem. It is impossible to make a perfectly balanced cast of characters, especially when the cast consists of nearly 50 people.
Besides, the balance isn't that bad in some of the games. In FE7, the only actually useless character is Karla. Every other character has unique advantages. Dorcas may suck mid- and endgame, but he is a lifesaver earlygame in HHM.

The balance may not have been so bad in Fire Emblem (GBA), but honestly, there are characters who--due to stats or timing or both--are simply completely useless and there is no incentive to use them. Or the opposite happens; some characters are so massively favored that they eclipse a good 50% of your militia.

Nearly every RPG uses a RNG for stat-ups in some way or the other. Besides, having to adept to your characters ending up differently than you originally expected them to be gives the game extra strategic depth. No two playthroughs are the same.

I would say that it takes away from strategic depth. Particularly it discourages the use of characters other than the best ones--especially in higher difficulties--because if you're a good strategist you may still get RNG screwed, and if you're using mediocre units there's not much of a safety net.

I personally don't like these changes. The skills put too much focus on classes instead of individual characters.
The GBA supports are also an amazing feature, both for the gameplay and the background story, that should never have been removed.

I disagree with the skills, but I do agree that GBA supports shouldn't have been taken away, and I was really disappointed to see them turned into generic idle banter.

Advance Wars isn't an RPG. It is a PTS. Just because they share a similar style doesn't mean it is of the same genre.

You're right. Sorry about that.

Something else I think Fire Emblem needs to fix is the laguz, though. They don't really complement the group, but rather they feel like units who were put into a game that wasn't built with them in mind. Beorc units can almost always do what they do and do it better, unless the laguz is grossly overpowered (a monarch), boosted by some sort of rare and godly permanent-transformation item, or a heron, seeing as they replaced human dancers (and are better).

 

[BlitzBlast]

Louise comes with an automatic A support with Pent. Using her will make the godly Pent even more godly.

Usign that A Support will require putting Louise at least 3 panels (I think) near Pent. Something that is going to be a little hard for her to stand.

However, I forgot she comes with an auto A; all I really remember about her and Pent is that they can only have support conversations on certain chapters.

Roy's chance of having 30 Lck at 20/20 is 54%. Besides, he will never reach 20/20 unless you give him massive favoritism due to his late promotion.
Roy will get +4 Att from a B support with both Lance and Allan, which makes his offence pretty good actually.

I will admit a word error on my part; I meant to say Roy has very high Luck growths. But yeah, Roy's awesome support choices basically cancel out most of his damaging problems until the Sealed Sword comes into play and WTFpwns everything in existence.

But they have very good bases and come at higher levels than the rest of your team. If you give Marcus, Kent, Sain and Lowen an equal amount of kills throughout the game, Marcus will have the best stats of the four until very late in the game, around Victory or Death, at which point the difference is still very small. At that point the game becomes piss easy anyway. The most difficult part of the game are the first few chapter, where Marcus rapes everything in sight.

The problem is that Marcus requires so many more kills then Kent, Sain and Lowen. Recall that for him, defeating an early enemy will give him around 1xp if he gets anything at all, while Lowen, Kent, or Sain would gain 10xp.

So until you reach a point where you start fighting promoted enemies, Marcus is only really useful as a meatshield and a way to chip down health.

And best stats? MARCUS? He's certainly better then what he was in FE 6, but not by that much. These are his average max stats:

HP : 58/60 Def: 24/25
Pow: 19/25 Res: 12/25
Skl: 17/26 Mov: 08
Spd: 19/24 Con: 12 Quickness: 31/36
Luc: 22/30 Aid: 13

These are Kent and Sain's (I'm not counting Lowen since you're probably only going to train two paladins max, as there are more then just them. Like Raven/)

HP : 54/60 Def: 17/25
Pow: 22/25 Res: 12/25
Skl: 26 MAXED Mov: 08
Spd: 24 MAXED Con: 11 Quickness: 35 MAXED
Luc: 10/30 Aid: 14

HP : 51/60 Def: 17/25
Pow: 25 MAXED Res: 09/25
Skl: 19/26 Mov: 08
Spd: 23/24 Con: 11 Quickness: 34/35
Luc: 17/30 Aid: 14

You also have to remember that prepromotes already start with high weapon levels, don't require a promotion item (which money you can use to buy Silver and Killer weapons) and are nearly immune to RNG screwage.
Besides, the difference in stat growths isn't that large. Geitz has higher growths than Dorcas.

I will admit I hadn't thought about the promotion items. But the weapon levels are kind of a moot point since the game has a curve when it comes to this sort of thing. In other words; yes, Marcus can use Silver Weapons early in the game. But are you really going to need them against Bandits? Also, while Geitz may have higher average stat growths, note that he has less Skill then even Bartre, which isn't good if you're an Axe user. But yeah, I'd still use him over Bartre and Dorcas due to his higher Speed and Strength.

This, of course, is assuming you'd even want to use Warriors; Hector and Berserkers tend to be better, and the large flux of magic users near end game kind of makes them big targets. They were more useful in FE 6.

Normal mode is easy. You can pick any random team of characters you like and beat the game without any trouble.

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because the only FE game I know where this is possible (as in 'without any trouble") is FE 8, and that was because of all the level grinding you could do.

You characters' stats grow far faster than enemy stats. The levels of the enemies barely increase either over the course of the game. Endgame you get easy access to Silver and Killer weapons too. Endgame is far easier than early and midgame.

Eh, I'll give you this. Usually by endgame I've built up certain characters until they become to godly for anyone to beat.

Have you seen Ninian and Fiora? Even Lyn is better than any of those you mentioned.

This is just beginning to veer off into what character you like more.

Looking at it in an objective POV though, Roy matches and exceeds his father.

Sophia = Ninian.
Sue = Lyn (and for that matter, could be Lyn's daughter)
Thany = Fiora

Of course we reach issues with the questionable ages of Lalum and Cecillia and the fact that if you feel like it, you can make the argument that Lilina is Roy's cousin (pair Eliwood with Fiora and Hector with Florina).

As things go though, most people tend to pair Eliwood with Ninian and Roy with Lilina, so I guess the comparison is between them.

 

[jellsprout]

I would say that it takes away from strategic depth. Particularly it discourages the use of characters other than the best ones--especially in higher difficulties--because if you're a good strategist you may still get RNG screwed, and if you're using mediocre units there's not much of a safety net.

So you are saying, to encourage people using weaker characters, the developers should make the stronger characters better 100% of the time, rather than 80% of the time?

Usign that A Support will require putting Louise at least 3 panels (I think) near Pent. Something that is going to be a little hard for her to stand.

They are both backline attackers. They like to stay behind your main force to attack others without being attacked themselves. It is not like you are putting Louise in the center with Raven.

The problem is that Marcus requires so many more kills then Kent, Sain and Lowen. Recall that for him, defeating an early enemy will give him around 1xp if he gets anything at all, while Lowen, Kent, or Sain would gain 10xp.

So until you reach a point where you start fighting promoted enemies, Marcus is only really useful as a meatshield and a way to chip down health.

And best stats? MARCUS? He's certainly better then what he was in FE 6, but not by that much. These are his average max stats:



These are Kent and Sain's (I'm not counting Lowen since you're probably only going to train two paladins max, as there are more then just them. Like Raven/)

I know Marcus gains less experience. That is why I said " an equal amount of kills", not "an equal amount of experience". Marcus starts with far higher bases than the Cavaliers and it takes them many levels to catch up. Read the following comparison written by All Hail Sain from GameFAQs, a part of his opening post in a debate:

Chapter 12:

Just fresh and starting out. Only two paladins to compare.

Marcus - 31/15/15/11/10/8/8/11
Lowen - 23/7/5/7/7/0/3/10

You don't have to be a mensa to figure things out here. Marcus has the following leads:
8 Hp
8 Str
10 Skl
4 Spd
3 Def
8 Res
5 Luk
1 Con

In addition to Marcus' ability to wield axes, it amounts to something like this.

Marcus has: 22 more hit, 8+ more Atk, 3 more Def, 8 more Res, 4 more AS, 13 more Avoid, and 5 more critical. Marcus also has an additional 15 hit and 1 atk vs. Lances due to WTA. Marcus slaughters Lowen at this point, no question.

Chapter 17: Now it gets interesting... not.

Marcus, ??/4 - 33.0/15.9/16.5/11.8/10.4/9.0/8.9/11
Lowen, 10/0 - 30.2/9.4/7.4/9.4/10.2/2.4/7.0/10
Kent, 9/0 - 26.8/9.2/10.0/10.6/7.0/3.0/3.6/9
Sain, 9/0 - 25.4/12.8/6.8/9.2/7.6/1.6/6.8/9

Stat comparisons:
HP: Marcus >2.8> Lowen >3.4> Kent >1.4> Sain
Str: Marcus >3.1> Sain >3.4> Lowen >0.2> Kent
Skl: Marcus >6.5> Kent >2.6> Lowen >0.6> Sain
Spd: Marcus >1.2> Kent >1.2> Lowen >0.2> Sain
Def: Marcus >0.2> Lowen >2.6> Sain >0.6> Kent
Res: Marcus >6.0> Kent >0.6> Lowen >0.8> Sain
Luk: Marcus >1.9> Lowen >0.2> Sain >3.2> Kent
Con: Marcus >1.0> Lowen >1.0> Sain >==> Kent

Marcus still has substantial leads in Strength, Skill, and Resistance, while still leading in everything else. Lowen, for all intents and purposes, has caught Marcus in Defense, but marcus still has more HP and resistance. Marcus has a far better offense than every other cavalier, hands down.

Chapter 22: This one's actually close, but unfortunately for the other cavs, Marcus has already been the most useful for half the game. Did I mention the more difficult half? Isadora's mostly a novelty, but I'll include her as well.

Marcus, ??/7 - 34.9/16.8/18.0/12.5/10.9/10.1/9.8/11
Lowen, 16/0 - 35.6/11.2/9.2/11.2/12.6/4.2/10.0/10
Kent, 15/0 - 31.9/11.6/13.0/13.3/8.5/4.5/4.8/9
Sain, 15/0 - 30.2/16.4/8.9/11.6/8.8/2.8/8.9/9
Isadora, ??/1- 28/13/12/16/8/6/10/6

Stat Comparisons:

HP: Lowen >0.7> Marcus >3.0> Kent >1.7> Sain >2.2> Isadora
Str: Marcus >0.4> Sain >3.4> Isadora >1.4> Kent >0.4> Lowen
Skl: Marcus >5.0> Kent >1.0> Isadora >2.8> Lowen >0.3> Sain
Spd: Isadora >2.7> Kent >0.8> Marcus >0.9> Sain >0.4> Lowen
Def: Lowen >1.7> Marcus >2.1> Sain >0.3> Kent >0.5> Isadora
Res: Marcus >4.1> Isadora >1.5> Kent >0.3> Lowen >1.4 > Sain
Luk: Lowen >==> Isadora >0.2> Marcus >0.9> Sain >4.1> Kent
Con: Marcus >1.0> Lowen >1.0 > Sain >==> Kent >3.0> Isadora

Marcus is still the best of the four by a significant margin. Sure, he gets beat in a couple stats and people come close in others, but Marcus is in the top three in every stat, top two in all but two, and still holds the crown in Strength, Skill, and Resistance (The latter two by significant margins), but he's still by far the best. Sain approaches Marcus in strength, but loses to him badly in Defense and skill. Isadora crushes Marcus in speed, but not only does she get crushed back in strength, but her low CON makes either her speed lead dwindle or her or her str loss to be even worse. Lowen beats Marcus by a little in HP, def, and Luk, but he also gets crushed in strength, skill, and resistance, and loses by a fair bit in speed as well. Finally, Kent only wins in speed, but loses badly in luck and strength.

Marcus is still the best pally, and none of the three endgame prospects can compare much to him at this point.

Chapter 27: Is the Marcus out of gas?

Note, the standard chapter for promotion seems to be Unfufilled Heart (CH26), so thet's when Kent and Sain promoted (Lowen promoted on Crazed Beast)

Marcus, ??/11 - 37.5/18.0/20.0/13.5/11.5/11.5/11.0/11
Lowen, 20/3 - 43.0/14.0/12.0/14.0/17.0/7.0/13.0/12
Kent, 20/2 - 39.0/15.0/17.0/17.0/12.0/7.0/6.0/11
Sain, 20/2 - 37.0/20.4/12.0/15.0/12.0/5.0/11.0/11
Isadora, ??/5 - 31.8/14.5/13.7/18.5/9.0/7.2/12.3/6

HP: Lowen >4.0> Kent >1.5> Marcus >0.5> Sain >5.2> Isadora
Str: Sain >2.4> Marcus >3.0> Kent >0.5> Isadora >0.5> Lowen
Skl: Marcus >3.0> Kent >3.3> Isadora >1.7> Sain >==> Lowen
Spd: Isadora >1.5> Kent >2.0> Sain >1.0> Lowen >0.5> Marcus
Def: Lowen >5.0> Sain >==> Kent >0.5> Marcus >2.5> Isadora
Res: Marcus >4.3> Isadora >0.2> Lowen >==> Kent >2.0> Sain
Luk: Lowen >0.7> Isadora >1.3> Marcus >==> Sain >5.0> Kent

Marcus VS. others (Stat leads are rounded up if 0.5 or higher, rounded down elsewise)

Marcus vs. Sain
Marcus has:
1HP
8Skl
7Res

Sain has:
2Str
2Spd
1Def

Their Luk and Con are the same.

This is a mighty close one. Marcus' leads are bigger, but in less important stats. Defensively, I'll give the win to Marcus, as 7Res outweighs 1 Def, but Sain's offensive leads barely trump Marcus' defensive advantages.
Winner: Sain. Passed Marcus at promotion, 2/3 through the game.

Marcus VS. Kent

Marcus has:
3Str
3Skl
5Res
5Luk

Kent has:
2HP
4Spd
1Def

Con is tied.

Sain's lead was shaky, and Kent's case is even worse. Sure, he doubles some stuff that Marcus can't, but Marcus can one-hit most of the speedier enemies with axes and has the hit to overcome WTD. Marcus also compares very well defensively.
Winner: Marcus

Marcus VS. Lowen

Marcus has:
4Str
8Skl
5Res

Lowen has:
6HP
1Spd (Not even)
6Def
2Luk
1Con

Another shaky proposition. Marcus' offense destroys Lowen's with his Axe-ability and higher strength and hit, while Lowen's defense is much better. I'll give this one to Lowen though, because his durability leads are very prevalent.
Winner: Lowen: Passed Marcus at promotion 2/3 through the game.

Marcus VS. Isadora

Marcus has:
6HP
4Str
6Skl
3Def
4Res
5Con (!)

Isadora has:
5Spd
1Luk

Wow. Isadora just got smashed (Not saying much, but still). Marcus' AS and dodge are the only things he loses in, but look at that godawful Con of Isadora's. That makes either her strength go down the pipes (We're talking another 4-5 strength) for using iron weapons vs. Marcus' steel or killer weapons, or her speed and dodge lead dwindle to nothing. Marcus has an outright offensive and defensive lead here.

Now, it looks like we have (Basically) a 4-way tie for best paladin. Marcus has the hit and plays Speedy/mage-killer, Kent's the quick one, Sain's powerful, and Lowen can take a hit. Even though it kinda looks like Marcus is the odd man out, he's actually the most powerful of the bunch. Why?

Weapons.

Take a look at Kent, Sain, and Lowen's level. They promoted. Marcus did not. They cost you 10K in funds rank. Marcus did not. Therefore, Marcus gets killer and silver weapons to compensate (What one unit gets, the other gets as well), while Kent, Lowen, and Sain are stuck with iron (Mt deficiency), or steel (AS + Hit deficiency), while Isadora's basically restricted to iron (Con). So, Marcus basically has the most Mt by a huge margin, a good bit more crit, and in some cases, hit/AS. The gap has widened, Marcus is the winner. Again.

Marcus is still the best paladin. 2/3 of the way through the game.

Final summary:
All three of the cavaliers (Kent, Lowen, Sain) finally pass Marcus at Chapter 29 (Cog of Destiny), and it stays that way for the rest of the game. Marcus is by no means a bad character to use through the final chapters though, and if it weren't for a few speed issues, he'd be one of the best characters to grace Fire Emblem.

Even though the five chapters that Kent, Sain, and Lowen are better than Marcus may be 5 of the hardest, Marcus has the virtue of being the best character, period, through the first half or so of the game. None of the other paladins, at average stats, can say the same for any point in the game. Marcus' utulity throughout most of the game is unparalleled, but most people just don't realize what kind of a character he is fighting alongside your army.

The entire topic can be found here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=468480&topic=41657762

This, of course, is assuming you'd even want to use Warriors; Hector and Berserkers tend to be better, and the large flux of magic users near end game kind of makes them big targets. They were more useful in FE 6.

Dart requires an item worth 50k to promote, while Hawkeye has Skl and Spd problems. Hector won't promote till late in the game.
Furthermore, Raven has terrible Con, leaving with you only the Paladins and Warriors as viable Axe users mid-game.

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because the only FE game I know where this is possible (as in 'without any trouble") is FE 8, and that was because of all the level grinding you could do.

The American FE games are pretty damn easy in Normal mode. I've putten all sorts of restrictions on myself in FE7 as I was filling up the Support archive and I never ran into any problems on either Normal mode. The later FE games only get easier. FE6 NM does give some problems, but it can still be beaten with most sets of teams.

 

[BlitzBlast]

Interesting.

I have to admit, I have new respect for Marcus, but I note that even with all of those pluses, the other Cavaliers do eventually beat him.

The question, I suppose, is whether you really need Paladins by endgame. If not, you can just use Marcus until he becomes outmatched. If so though, it's debatable whether or not you'll want Marcus to gain much XP at all so you can focus on one of the others.

As for the Axe issue, there's just one problem; the use of Warriors is somewhat pointless, because, as you pointed out, there are Paladins, who in general have better Skill and Speed, making them far more worthwhile.

Not to mention the fact that you don't really need an Axe; Lances work just as well against Lances, and Archers and Mages can take care of Flying units and Knights respectively.

I admit that FE 7 and FE 8 were pathetic in NM (Hell, FE 8 is pathetic in HM. The only real difference I've seen in it is that enemies seem to hit more often. And by that, I mean three bandits hitting an archer in the woods. Poor Neimi.) but I don't really think they'd (and by they I mean FE 7) be considered "Pathetically easy".

Still FE 6 was a female dog once you reach the chapter where you recruit Miledy. After that, things just kept getting crazier.

 

[jellsprout]

You realise Marcus isn't as bad as you thought. My job here is done.

 

[Rave]

You realise Marcus isn't as bad as you thought.

Only to be used as a meat shield.

 

[jellsprout]

Did you even read my previous post? Marcus is the best utility, offensive and defensive unit for the majority of the game. Only Mathew, Ninian and Serra come close in utility and he won't get passed in offense or defense till Chapter 24 or so. Every other character (with the exception of Mathew, Ninian and Serra) can be replaced, but Marcus is required for the first half of the game and he is still very good in the second half.
Even in FE6 Marcus is required in Hard Mode.

 

[BlitzBlast]

Only in FE 6 you'll stop using him faster. Especially in Hard Mode.

Percival anyone?

 

[Octillery]

First post here in over a year, estimated? I haven't even checked. I'll do so after this. But that's irrelevant.

Anyways, I enjoy Fire Emblem quite a bit. I don't have much time for video games, but I've played through most of the American Fire Emblems a fair amount. Well.... I was still playing through Radiant Dawn when I lost the time/desire to play a large quantity of video games. But I've been playing it again recently, it's pretty neat. I tend to favor archers. I'm really not sure why. But it always happens (Wil, Neimi, Rolf, specifically, even if they're not the greatest. I just like archers.)

I haven't picked up the one for the DS yet. My friend told me it wasn't that great. I don't really have any money anymore. Sigh.

 

[Dragonite19]

First post here in over a year, estimated? I haven't even checked. I'll do so after this. But that's irrelevant.

Anyways, I enjoy Fire Emblem quite a bit. I don't have much time for video games, but I've played through most of the American Fire Emblems a fair amount. Well.... I was still playing through Radiant Dawn when I lost the time/desire to play a large quantity of video games. But I've been playing it again recently, it's pretty neat. I tend to favor archers. I'm really not sure why. But it always happens (Wil, Neimi, Rolf, specifically, even if they're not the greatest. I just like archers.)

I haven't picked up the one for the DS yet. My friend told me it wasn't that great. I don't really have any money anymore. Sigh.

The DS game isn't really that bad. I find it quite enjoyble with the challenge and all. My opinion though.

 

[BlitzBlast]

People disliked it because it decided to stay true to the original game. While normally this would be a good thing, it mean cutting out supports completely and requiring you to keep your army as small as possible to do the sidequests.

There were, of course, people who disliked it solely for the name changes, but those type of people are everywhere.

 

[Dragonite19]

People disliked it because it decided to stay true to the original game. While normally this would be a good thing, it mean cutting out supports completely and requiring you to keep your army as small as possible to do the sidequests.

There were, of course, people who disliked it solely for the name changes, but those type of people are everywhere.

Ironic: the one game that is worse by going back to its roots.

 

[BlitzBlast]

Well, it'd be like Pokemon suddenly going back to 1st gen game mechanics. Wouldn't do so well.

 

[Dragonite19]

Well, it'd be like Pokemon suddenly going back to 1st gen game mechanics. Wouldn't do so well.

*Shudders*

 

[jellsprout]

People disliked it because it decided to stay true to the original game. While normally this would be a good thing, it mean cutting out supports completely and requiring you to keep your army as small as possible to do the sidequests.

That is ironic. I and many other people dislike it because it doesn't stay true to the original game at all. The entire gameplay was changed to match FE10, instead of staying true to the gameplay in FE1.

 

[Hydrohs]

I've wanted to get into this series for a while, but I'm kind of turned off by it's apparent crazy hardness. The whole "units die permanently" is a minus as well.

The games aren't hard at all. If you really find them difficult play on Easy, you'll hardly ever lose a unit unless you do something really stupid.

Exactly. You get so far into a mission and then BAM! One of your guys die and you have to restart. I didn't like the fact that in Shadow Dragon you had to sacrafice one of your teammates in one of the prolouges. Thats just harsh!

Well hopefully you sacrificed Jeigon, who is worthless. And doesn't he come back? I forget.

It was to get rid of Jeigan. That really isn't that bad, look at his name :/

Can we talk about how Sacred Stones is bad and should be ashamed of itself?

Sacred Stones was awesome, what do you have against it?

Don't remind me she's a mage. I like Micaiah but that whole mage thing is hard to deal with. Oh, the times she's died...

Michaiah is a tank if you level her. I made the mistake of not my first playthrough of Radiant Dawn, and couldn't beat the final level because she would die in one hit with every attack.

 

[BlitzBlast]

Sacred Stones is a bit of a blach sheep since... well... you could grind. And even on difficult mode it was pathetically easy because you could grind.

And Micaiah? A tank?

Mage =/= tank.

 

[Hydrohs]

Sacred Stones is a bit of a blach sheep since... well... you could grind. And even on difficult mode it was pathetically easy because you could grind.

And Micaiah? A tank?

Mage =/= tank.

I like the ability to grind in SS, let me class change characters so much easier.

I loved Micaiah, she wasn't a damage absorbing tank but she was a damage giving tank. Easily maxxed out her Magic and I think Speed as well. She was great.

 

[BlitzBlast]

Well, that was the problem.

Normally, you can only have so many promoted characters and so many characters that were a decent level.

SS threw that all out the window, and beyond that, it also made things easier.

Also, you may need to check up on your definitions; tanks are supposed to be able to soak up damage.

Also, it's not a good thing to have your main character be capable of easily falling in battle.

 

[Auraninja]

My favorite character, at least from all the characters I know, is Canas. He's a dark shaman who is quite scholarly. Plus, you have to dig the monocle. I also like characters like Erk and Lyn. I haven't really played any other Fire Emblems except 7, so my knowledge on the characters is somewhat limited.

Anyway, I have only played the seventh of the series, and I like it a lot. It's just that I had to put it away for a little bit. I want to plan on how I want to do my supports. I like the bonus content you get from Mario Kart: DD, and I'm happy that I finally glad I found out who that character who appeared on the disc is.

Hector seems to be one of the greatest fighters from FE7. His axe powers are just incredible. As my friend puts it, he's just crazy.