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For all things relative to politics.

pocketmunster

munster in my pocket
Torture is different based on the results trying to be pulled from it, as well as the techniques used. To say the techniques used by the CIA constitutes torture, is not only nieve but paints torture with a horribly broad brush. As for the results being used. I distinguish the difference between some one using techniques to save hundreds if not thousands of lives. And some one using techniques for personal satisfaction. Its quite sad that you cannot distinguish between the two.
Then why would you say the laws protecting these people exist? And could you answer in a fasion that just adresses my question without the needless statments like "Its quite sad that you cannot distinguish between the two."

That being said, your example from the book, pretty much failed with today's announcement that the use of these tactics stopped at least one attack from happening. Good way to fail.
I dont care what you say, but I heared that most of the information was gained before all the controversial tech's were used. You get skewed information if you tourture someone. So I didnt "fail". Just because you can say for one instience that they were trying to get "information as to specific operations going on", it dosent mean thats going to be the situation EVERY time they use these techs.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Then why would you say the laws protecting these people exist?

You mind actually expanding on that? What law are you talking about?

And could you answer in a fasion that just adresses my question without the needless statments like "Its quite sad that you cannot distinguish between the two."

Oh so NOW you don't like the insults.

I dont care what you say, but I heared that most of the information was gained before all the controversial tech's were used.

CIA Memo: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”

Mind you the rules placed on Waterboarding was this: “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘Other interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’

You heard wrong.

You get skewed information if you tourture someone. So I didnt "fail".

Not according to the CIA memo, and not according to the multiple people that were revealed to the interrogators through the process. You can continue to peddle this stupidity that you only get skewed information if you torture some one. But reality tends to disagree with you.

Oh and some more information from the memo: “You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”

Just because you can say for one instience that they were trying to get "information as to specific operations going on", it dosent mean thats going to be the situation EVERY time they use these techs.

Thats right, which is why Obama needs to release the documents on the effectiveness of these techniques. So far the CIA is standing by their effectiveness, so how about Obama stop being a coward and playing Political Games, and allow all the information to come forward.
 
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ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
More Miss California: I oppose bailouts and welfare

Two words: Holy cow. Supporting one-man-one-woman marriage wasn't enough. Now, Carrie Prejean opposes those bailouts for America's banks and companies. Allahpundit already considers Ms. Prejean an American conservative, but if the Middle East starts going up in flames and she stands by Israel against Iran, then I will have a very powerful combined incentive to support her... as a new contributor for Fox News Channel, if Prejean makes that choice.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Possibly the scariest article you will read this year.

Washington Post: Slow Roll Time at the CIA or How Obama is scaring the CIA into timidity

One thing I have been hearing since the STUPIDITY of the document release, is that Obama may have just signed the death warrants for American Civilians. That sadly probably is true, and we are seeing the first signs of it now. Yes Obama did something so stupid, so idiotic, that it ranks up there with the worst actions of any President during war time. ANY PRESIDENT.

Lets also not forget that we are at war, not a "overseas contingency operation" as this naive and wreck less administration has put it. I hate to say I told you so guys, but this man has decided to forget that we are at war with murderers and mad men, and his stupidity, his wreckless action, will kill Americans.

You know, when Obama was sworn in, everyone was going crazy about how it was a "Smooth transition of power". If these thugs, if these scum bags in the Obama White House, decide it is time to begin prosecuting previous administration officials because they disagree with them ideologically. If the Obama White House decides to act more like a South American country than a American Government office.

Then you wont see many more Smooth Transitions of Power.

Edit: Probably the most chilling part of the article is this:

Washington Post said:
One veteran counterterrorism operative says that agents in the field are already being more careful about using the legal findings that authorize covert action. An example is the so-called "risk of capture" interview that takes place in the first hour after a terrorism suspect is grabbed. This used to be the key window of opportunity, in which the subject was questioned aggressively and his cellphone contacts and "pocket litter" were exploited quickly.

Now, field officers are more careful. They want guidance from headquarters. They need legal advice. I'm told that in the case of an al-Qaeda suspect seized in Iraq several weeks ago, the CIA didn't even try to interrogate him. The agency handed him over to the U.S. military.

Agency officials also worry about the effect on foreign intelligence services that share secrets with the United States in a process politely known as "liaison." A former official who remains in close touch with key Arab allies such as Egypt and Jordan warns: "There is a growing concern that the risk is too high to do the things with America they've done in the past."

Those that voted for Obama, I hope this is what you wanted, I truly do. Because this scum bag of a human being has probably set us up for another 9/11.
 
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ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
Possibly the scariest article you will read this year.

Washington Post: Slow Roll Time at the CIA or How Obama is scaring the CIA into timidity

One thing I have been hearing since the STUPIDITY of the document release, is that Obama may have just signed the death warrants for American Civilians. That sadly probably is true, and we are seeing the first signs of it now. Yes Obama did something so stupid, so idiotic, that it ranks up there with the worst actions of any President during war time. ANY PRESIDENT.

Lets also not forget that we are at war, not a "overseas contingency operation" as this naive and wreck less administration has put it. I hate to say I told you so guys, but this man has decided to forget that we are at war with murderers and mad men, and his stupidity, his wreckless action, will kill Americans.

You know, when Obama was sworn in, everyone was going crazy about how it was a "Smooth transition of power". If these thugs, if these scum bags in the Obama White House, decide it is time to begin prosecuting previous administration officials because they disagree with them ideologically. If the Obama White House decides to act more like a South American country than a American Government office.

Then you wont see many more Smooth Transitions of Power.

(snorting with quiet disapproval) Good grief. Now that I think about it, Barack Hussein Obama has already become the weakest President of America in my recollection, and as it turns out, he's the first Democratic President I have seen after my political consciousness was activated. The American left may want to continue bashing George Walker Bush around the world, holding up the United Nations to alleviate miscommunication as a source of conflict, or portraying this country as uniquely oppressive against blacks, Hispanics, women, and the poor, but I'm already persuaded that in a nutshell, they hate freedom and anyone who defends it.:

Indicting the Left's True Believers
Victor Davis Hanson: Works and Days

If Carrie Prejean comes out slamming Obama and the Democrats over this sometime in the next few days, then I'll certainly stand with her in reaffirming the attributes that made the United States a great global superpower and rejecting the premise of submission without any questions. I may have found that assumption easier to guess than I thought, judging from American leftists' Bush/Palin Derangement Syndrome and preferences for a utopia of collectivism, among other attributes. I already thought that Obama would not be successful in defending and explaining America's guardianship of freedom for the world, and actions like these can only reinforce that conclusion.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
Obama decides to release photos of detainee abuse

I am sure ccangelopearl1362 would have posted about this but I just could not wait. The morale at the CIA must be at a all time low, Obama seems to be just taking a sledge hammer to that organization. These photos will only help serve to create "Political Hearings" against the Bush Administration, hurt the CIA even more, and fuel the terrorists anger and recruitment.

Luckily as of right now at least in the polls Obama's decisions are backfiring badly, and if these go to hearings it could become "Obama's Iraq". Its pretty scary that these things will probably lead to another attack, seeing how the CIA, the ones that are supposed to gather information for us are now running scared. And Al Qaeda is gaining propaganda.

It's also kind of funny, in a sick way, that Bush spend 7 years bending over backwards and fighting tooth and nail to protect this country from terrorists. And Obama has not only worked to undo that protection in just under 4 months, but will probably spend the next three years in court battles against those who spent so long to protect us.

Guess that really shows who actually gives a damn about the security of this country. And who doesn't.

Edit: For the poll it is the latest Rasmussen poll

58% believe Obama endangered National Security by releasing the memos.
 
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ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
Er... I was actually focused elsewhere this morning, BigLutz. I will accept a nationwide debate about these interrogation memos under George Walker Bush's administration, and perhaps Carrie Prejean has her own opinion about Bush's actions in maintaining America's security after the 9/11 airplane jihad attacks. Speaking of Carrie Prejean, it would seem that this brouhaha over her answer about marriage has American conservatives charged up once more.:

Miss California: Queen of the GOP

I'm not certain that Ms. Prejean intended for any of this to happen, but just as I kept track of those Tax Day tea parties, I shall do my best to keep track of Miss California's movement across the various perspectives that constitute the Republican Party. Quite a few prominent American conservatives have already praised her, including Sean Hannity himself. In my case, consider me a person who favors strength in both foreign and domestic policy for the United States of America, reaffirming the cause of freedom both at home and around the world.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
Er... I was actually focused elsewhere this morning, BigLutz. I will accept a nationwide debate about these interrogation memos under George Walker Bush's administration,

I wouldn't mind one, as shown with my debate with Pocket Munster, a debate on interrogation memos can be easily won. But even still it is a unfair debate, as the President is picking and choosing the information that fits his partisan agenda. If we were to have all the information released and allowed a grand debate that would be great. But under the horror that is Obama, that will never happen.
 

ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
American strength, or American weakness? American strength, or American weakness? Anyone wondering why the latter would be terrible for the cause of freedom can simply turn to North Korea... which, as the Times of London reported yesterday afternoon, just became a "full-fledged nuclear power".:

North Korea is fully fledged nuclear power, experts agree

I happened to share that report with some friends of mine who were talking about the deterioration of Pakistan, and one of them mentioned having relatives across Pakistan. The name of Abdul-Qadeer Khan surfaced in my mind almost instantly and stayed there as I listened, noting the alarm in that friend's voice, as well as that of one more. Between these two churning international crises, President Barack Obama may have far bigger problems than abused jihadists to worry about.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Its just been announced that Dick Cheney has requested two specific memos to be released from the CIA. I have a feeling that in the last few days this was one of the nightmare scenarios that Cheney and a few others were going over and knew EXACTLY which documents to go after.

So Cheney: 1 Obama: 0 for anyone keeping score.

The UK seems to be keeping score though, as the UK Telegraph puts it:

President Pantywaist Obama should have thought twice before sitting down to play poker with Dick Cheney.

President Pantywaist, that quote is so good it is a tempting replacement for my Washington Post quote. But the fact that Obama has endangered American lives by the release is just too damning to replace right now.

Edit: Good News Everyone! Obama has decided to release terrorists into the United States, who recieved training in Afghanistan, have shown violent tendencies, and spent 7 years in Guitmo Change we can believe in!
 
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ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
Good News Everyone! Obama has decided to release terrorists into the United States, who recieved training in Afghanistan, have shown violent tendencies, and spent 7 years in Guitmo Change we can believe in!

It looks like Allahpundit chose his introductory headline for that Hot Air blog entry rather aptly. If you decide to create a list of decisions by Barack Obama resulting in American weakness during the first 100 days of his presidency of radicalism/revenge, BigLutz, then I will wish you success and good luck. I'd say that the other Guantanamo Bay detainees can only be all too happy to resume their violent jihad against America, but with Mr. Cheney beginning to push back, others across America may increasingly follow suit, perhaps even some former officials for George Walker Bush.
 

BigLutz

Banned
It looks like Allahpundit chose his introductory headline for that Hot Air blog entry rather aptly. If you decide to create a list of decisions by Barack Obama resulting in American weakness during the first 100 days of his presidency of radicalism/revenge, BigLutz, then I will wish you success and good luck.

Hmm I think I might, I just have to rake my memory for everything.

1: Closed down Guitmo so that terrorists will either be released, or transferred to a unknown Prison Facility, as of 100 days there are still no plans.

2: Confined all Interrogation guidelines to the U.S. military field handbook.

3: Ordered the CIA to close its secret prisons around the world that hold detainees without adhering to U.S. legal standards.

4: Sent a letter to Iran to open talks, thus allowing the Iran Government to use it as a Propaganda piece saying that the US domination and ideology has failed.

5: Cut the defense budget including the F-22 Raptor Program

6: Cut Missile Defense Programs just days after North Korea test fires a missile that could reach two US states.

7: Allows himself to be used as a Propaganda Piece by Chavez.

8: Used distorted numbers while in Mexico to make it look like the gun violence was the U.S. fault.

9: Released CIA memos, the damage of this has already been covered in previous posts.

10: Prepares to release CIA Interrogation pictures, knowing it will spark US hatred in the Middle East, will be used as Propaganda piece by Al Qaeda, and further damages the CIA.

11: Prepares to release terrorists into the US when China wouldn't take them back. Even though they have acted violent in the past while at Guitmo, and received training in Afghanistan.

Edit: 12: Allowed the UN to pretty much dictate the response to the North Korean Crisis, ending up with the UN sending a watered down letter to North Korea in protest.

13: Appointed Janet Napolitano, nuff said really.

I think I touched most of the main ones, although I am sure there are a few I am forgetting.
 
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ccangelopearl1362

Well-Known Member
I see quite a list so far, fellow political junkie. Allow me to add these.:

14. Geithner agreeing with China to move from the dollar to a new strategic reserve currency
15. Putting the United Nations in charge of "climate change" management -- and America's energy sector
16. Allowing Citibank and Goldman Sachs to apply for branches in Iran -- with sanctions against Islamic Revolutionary Guards still in place
17. Bowing in front of the King of Saudi Arabia
18. Inviting the leader of the Organization of the Islamic Conference to visit the White House
19. Equivocating between Turkey and Armenian genocide victims (Note: This one I discovered this morning.)
20. Sending a bust of Winston Churchill back to Britain
21. Nominating Harold Koh to be the State Department's legal advisor

I wouldn't be surprised if Osama bin Laden authorized his deputies and underlings to take five and went on to become a Sharia-compliant financier as a result of Barack Obama's prostration before the world. As the Turks most recently demonstrated, though, Obama can make as many apologies for America as he wants -- and judging from these decisions, I'd say that he intends to do just that -- but none of those apologies would be enough to soothe the rage of the world's most notorious tyrants at America's guardianship of freedom.
 
The release of the CIA memos was definitely not a good idea. :/ At the very least, he should have released the memos with the information saying the interrogations were useful. I disagree with some of the torture techniques used, mainly the ones involving physical abuse, however that kind of is a separate issue in itself. I think the release helps jeopardize our national security to a certain extent, but I wouldn't say it is in jeopardy itself..Though, the issue of this seems to be out of the news already with this whole swine flu potential pandemic. O_O If I had to make two general categories on what Obama has been doing wrong, it would be this issue with the memo release, and what appears to be his stance on North Korea. North Korea two weeks ago seemed to be an annoyance, now with potential war declarations and missile technology evolution...I feel like war with North Korea is something could very well happen in our life time.

However, I feel like this "list" of issues is ridiculous. Most of them are overblown and not even an issue. Bowing down to the king of Saudi Arabia? Oh wah ccangelo, we're all going to die now. America has been bowing down to Saudi Arabia long ago when our dependence on foreign oil started with them. And that is not Obama's or Bush's or even Clinton's fault, but simply the corruption in the American government and a lack of motivation to change to new technologies quicker. We're not going to move away from the dollar, every president has nominated the "wrong" people to certain positions, and a propaganda piece for Chavez? Oh, come on, Republicans would have b*tched either way. Be friendly with Chavez and talk to him? Yep, Obama's a terrorist. Not talk to Chavez and do what, slap the book in his face? Oh yep, Obama's an idiot and a hypocrite. So much for change. Same with the Iran issue. Yeah lets see the Bush administration got along just great with Saudi Arabia and was awfully friendly and talked to them, even though human rights and women's rights is an extreme issue with Saudi Arabia...Guantanamo doesn't warrant criticism unless he breaks his promise that something will be done by the end of the year. It's rather pointless to say nothing is being done but I am pretty sure it's safe to say there is quite a bit of behind the scenes work not being shown to the public.
Which of course, the annoying thing of this all is the hyper criticism from the Republican party against Obama. Yeah unless our economy collapses or we get attacked, then that's warranted criticism. But hyperanalzying every little thing like bowing to a leader or eating fruity pebbles instead of cocoa pebbles isn't an issue. 95% of the stuff being b*tched about won't be an issue or even remembered in 10 years. "Oh yes Obama bowed to the king of Saudi Arabia all our problems stem from that.

Seriously, the main things I see him getting warranted criticism on is North Korea and the CIA memos, both of which he has acted extremely poorly on.

Also, just a little tidbit: Scott Murphy a Democrat has won one of New York's most Conservative districts. And it's only a matter of time before Franken takes his seat. Seriously, can Coleman just not accept the fact that he lost and won't get his seat back?

http://dissidentvoice.org/Apr06/Jayne11.htm And here is an article from a website also criticizing Obama, criticizing some major mistakes Bush has done. Some of them I also admit will are overblown
 
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BigLutz

Banned
America has been bowing down to Saudi Arabia long ago when our dependence on foreign oil started with them.

Except Saudi Arabia isn't our only oil supplier. Granted I don't think it is something that weakened us, but it was a idiotic maneuver, and probably is the fault of the State Department for not informing Obama, than his own fault.

And that is not Obama's or Bush's or even Clinton's fault, but simply the corruption in the American government and a lack of motivation to change to new technologies quicker.

I would think each one of them could have a bit of blame placed on them. Each of them could have begun drilling for US oil long ago, each one of them didn't.

and a propaganda piece for Chavez? Oh, come on, Republicans would have b*tched either way. Be friendly with Chavez and talk to him? Yep, Obama's a terrorist.

See the problem is that it is a propaganda piece, Chavez is very anti freedom, and will use that to say the US supports him. Our allies in the region, the ones that truly can bring about change and freedom to South America, are looking at that video, and wondering if the US stands with them. Not to mention Chavez can use that video to bolster his cause.

Not talk to Chavez and do what, slap the book in his face? Oh yep, Obama's an idiot and a hypocrite.

He should have moved away, or politely declined the book. Obama is a skilled politician, he knows how to get away from those circumstances, and he knows the potential fall out a friendly smile and handshake with Chavez can bring to South America.

So much for change. Same with the Iran issue. Yeah lets see the Bush administration got along just great with Saudi Arabia and was awfully friendly and talked to them, even though human rights and women's rights is an extreme issue with Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is also a ally of ours, Venezuela isn't. Not to mention Saudi Arabia isn't trying their best to undermine the Governments of the surrounding nations. As for Iran, you really didnt provide a defense to it.

..Guantanamo doesn't warrant criticism unless he breaks his promise that something will be done by the end of the year. It's rather pointless to say nothing is being done but I am pretty sure it's safe to say there is quite a bit of behind the scenes work not being shown to the public.

And what proof do you have of that? I mean when Obama announced the closure he had no idea what to do with the prisoners. He has gone around the world begging for nations to take them, and has found few if no takers. It has gotten to the point that he has decided to start releasing them into the US. He has put very little effort into what will happen to Guitmo Prisoners, and has gotten even smaller results.

Which of course, the annoying thing of this all is the hyper criticism from the Republican party against Obama. Yeah unless our economy collapses or we get attacked, then that's warranted criticism. But hyperanalzying every little thing like bowing to a leader or eating fruity pebbles instead of cocoa pebbles isn't an issue.

Obama has brought alot of the criticism on himself. Not to mention the Democrats have been heaving criticism back at Republicans * The Rush Limbaugh thing, or the Tea Party thing *. Lets also not forget that there was also criticism on Clinton when he bowed, so to act as if the Republicans on that issue are giving Obama special treatment is a utter lie.

95% of the stuff being b*tched about won't be an issue or even remembered in 10 years. "Oh yes Obama bowed to the king of Saudi Arabia all our problems stem from that.

95% of the stuff? You named one thing and then claim 95% of it isn't a issue.

Seriously, the main things I see him getting warranted criticism on is North Korea and the CIA memos, both of which he has acted extremely poorly on.

How about the Bush Trials? How about releasing the CIA pictures? How about neutering our interrogation procedures? How about his lies on the guns going into Mexico from the US? How about his over spending to the point that the middle class will be taxed? How about Cap and Trade? How about trying to repealing Michigan vs Jackson? How about working to push through Illigal Immigration reform? How about releasing Al Qaeda trained terrorists into the US? Mind you those are just off the top of my head.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
America has been bowing down to Saudi Arabia long ago when our dependence on foreign oil started with them.

Except Saudi Arabia isn't our only oil supplier. Granted I don't think it is something that weakened us, but it was a idiotic maneuver, and probably is the fault of the State Department for not informing Obama, than his own fault.

And that is not Obama's or Bush's or even Clinton's fault, but simply the corruption in the American government and a lack of motivation to change to new technologies quicker.

I would think each one of them could have a bit of blame placed on them. Each of them could have begun drilling for US oil long ago, each one of them didn't.

and a propaganda piece for Chavez? Oh, come on, Republicans would have b*tched either way. Be friendly with Chavez and talk to him? Yep, Obama's a terrorist.

See the problem is that it is a propaganda piece, Chavez is very anti freedom, and will use that to say the US supports him. Our allies in the region, the ones that truly can bring about change and freedom to South America, are looking at that video, and wondering if the US stands with them. Not to mention Chavez can use that video to bolster his cause.

Not talk to Chavez and do what, slap the book in his face? Oh yep, Obama's an idiot and a hypocrite.

He should have moved away, or politely declined the book. Obama is a skilled politician, he knows how to get away from those circumstances, and he knows the potential fall out a friendly smile and handshake with Chavez can bring to South America.

So much for change. Same with the Iran issue. Yeah lets see the Bush administration got along just great with Saudi Arabia and was awfully friendly and talked to them, even though human rights and women's rights is an extreme issue with Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is also a ally of ours, Venezuela isn't. Not to mention Saudi Arabia isn't trying their best to undermine the Governments of the surrounding nations. As for Iran, you really didnt provide a defense to it.

..Guantanamo doesn't warrant criticism unless he breaks his promise that something will be done by the end of the year. It's rather pointless to say nothing is being done but I am pretty sure it's safe to say there is quite a bit of behind the scenes work not being shown to the public.

And what proof do you have of that? I mean when Obama announced the closure he had no idea what to do with the prisoners. He has gone around the world begging for nations to take them, and has found few if no takers. It has gotten to the point that he has decided to start releasing them into the US. He has put very little effort into what will happen to Guitmo Prisoners, and has gotten even smaller results.

Which of course, the annoying thing of this all is the hyper criticism from the Republican party against Obama. Yeah unless our economy collapses or we get attacked, then that's warranted criticism. But hyperanalzying every little thing like bowing to a leader or eating fruity pebbles instead of cocoa pebbles isn't an issue.

Obama has brought alot of the criticism on himself. Not to mention the Democrats have been heaving criticism back at Republicans * The Rush Limbaugh thing, or the Tea Party thing *. Lets also not forget that there was also criticism on Clinton when he bowed, so to act as if the Republicans on that issue are giving Obama special treatment is a utter lie.

95% of the stuff being b*tched about won't be an issue or even remembered in 10 years. "Oh yes Obama bowed to the king of Saudi Arabia all our problems stem from that.

95% of the stuff? You named one thing and then claim 95% of it isn't a issue.

Seriously, the main things I see him getting warranted criticism on is North Korea and the CIA memos, both of which he has acted extremely poorly on.

How about the Bush Trials? How about releasing the CIA pictures? How about neutering our interrogation procedures? How about his lies on the guns going into Mexico from the US? How about working to push through Illigal Immigration reform? How about releasing Al Qaeda trained terrorists into the US? Mind you those are just off the top of my head.
 

Tim the turtle

Happy Mudkip
20. Sending a bust of Winston Churchill back to Britain
That one's probably a good thing. Being British I have an inbuilt love for the Old Statesman but there is no denying that he was an horrific racist, even if you look past this:
It was during Churchill's second premiership that Britain suppressed Kenya's Mau Mau rebellion. Among Kenyans allegedly tortured by the colonial regime included one Hussein Onyango Obama, the President's grandfather.
He openly admitted to looking down upon coloured people as inferior. I really don't think its appropriate to have a bust of a self-proclaimed racist in the office of a black(ish) man and I think that enough British people know that for it not to hurt international relations.
 

Squirtle85

Ready, Set, and GO
BigLutz You forgot to mention:

*Obama's violating the terms of the NAFTA
* Attempting to remove the veterans benefits
* Removing Cuba's embargo
 

BigLutz

Banned
That one's probably a good thing. Being British I have an inbuilt love for the Old Statesman but there is no denying that he was an horrific racist, even if you look past this:

Lincoln wasn't much better when it came to being a racist. Which I believe is the bust that he replaced it with. That being said it was a gester of good will from our closest allies after 9/11. Best thing he could do was find some place else in the White House to put it.

Squirtle85: Doh I knew I forgot something, thank you.
 
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