Free will

[Ludwig]

Free will is defined as being able to choose, making decisions without external influence.

The best explanation of a decision that I've been able to find is:

Decision making can be regarded as the mental processes (cognitive process) resulting in the selection of a course of action among several alternative scenarios.

It's from the wikipedia article about decision making, meaning that it explain the process of making a decision rather than a decision, but it's close enough.

I don't have an opinion about if we have free will, because I am unsure about how to correctly interpret free will and how to apply that to what I do think about the subject.

What I think about the subject:

Matter interact due to energy and will always strive to be in the state that require the the least amount of energy. Because of this, in any given moment, there will only be one possible development for the next moment, there is no "random factor". This will inductively lead to that all matter got a pre-determined state (and position) in all moments. Because the human body is made of matter, all actions are pre-determined.

 

[UnovaMaster]

I have the free will to post in this thread if I feel like it and you have the free will to discard emotions.

I also have the free will to not entirely understand what we're supposed to be debating. You just gave us a bunch of herpy derpy definitions and no opinion of your own.

 

[SwiftSoul]

Free will is an illusion until you truly realize it is not.

That may sound cryptic, but it's what I see: people will go through like not realizing that they truly do have free free will, because in today's society, not a lot of people actually have to use it. It's practically programmed into you by society anyway.

 

[ebilly99]

I have free will, and even if I am wrong I had no choice but to say it.

 

[hyperion33]

I have no idea what you said, but we have free will.

 

[Ludwig]

I have the free will to post in this thread if I feel like it and you have the free will to discard emotions.

I also have the free will to not entirely understand what we're supposed to be debating. You just gave us a bunch of herpy derpy definitions and no opinion of your own.

Debate about free will.

I have free will, and even if I am wrong I had no choice but to say it.

Why do you think that you have free will?

I have no idea what you said, but we have free will.

Why do you think that we have free will?

If you can't understand what I write, use a dictionary:
http://www.wiktionary.org/
http://dictionary.reference.com/
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

 

[Malanu]

Free will is an illusion until you truly realize it is not.

That may sound cryptic, but it's what I see: people will go through life not realizing that they truly do have free free will, because in today's society, not a lot of people actually have to use it. It's practically programmed into you by society anyway.

Free will is easy. Out of a group of choices you can choose the one that you find best.

Your ability to look at a group of possibilities and choose... That one! Is your free will. Will you take the expressway to work, the side streets or a totally new way just to see the sites? Heck you can even choose to not go!

Now choice is impacted by your environment. You could choose to wear clam diggers & a tank top outside in Antarctica... probably just once!!!

Society. We wear our hair and cloths a usual way because we tend to no want to be mocked. However as an 80's teen, I thumbed my nose at the norm and would wear Bell Bottoms (at this time they weren't just for girls, and out of fashion even for druggies), and a Dashiki http://static.artfire.com/admin/product_images/thumbs/--120000--117909_product_181990731_thumb_large.jpg

It was my choice, I did it even though I was made fun of!

You have free will if you can accept the consequences of your decisions.

My brother-in-law chose to quit a $20 an hour job... So he could go fishing any time he wanted. Yeah... he was single. Which was just how he liked it.

Atomic structure aside, matter and energy theory Ludwig proposed is just silly. As illustrated in my examples. My Bro & I often chose to go against the flow to do what we wanted to do.

 

[Ludwig]

Atomic structure aside, matter and energy theory Ludwig proposed is just silly. As illustrated in my examples. My Bro & I often chose to go against the flow to do what we wanted to do.

"Going against the flow" was also initiated by something.

 

[Malanu]

Yes my choice to do what I want to make me happiest. When you are willing to ignore the common way of thinking to choose on what you want you are exercising free will.

 

[Ludwig]

Yes my choice to do what I want to make me happiest. When you are willing to ignore the common way of thinking to choose on what you want you are exercising free will.

The thinking is just interactions between atoms, which have to obey the natural laws.

 

[Malanu]

Including Chaos Theory?

 

[Ludwig]

Including Chaos Theory?

Yes.

The universe is deterministic.

I won't bother finding the sentence telling why chaos theory doesn't matter in an English text. In Swedish it says:

Om det är ett deterministiskt system så är beteendet inte slumpmässigt i egentlig mening, eftersom varje nytt värde kan bestämmas med de ekvationer som beskriver systemet.

I would translate it like:
"If the system is deterministic, the behavior won't be random in it's true meaning, because each new value can be calculated by the laws defining the system."

The chaos theory is about how small changes in the initial value grows over time.

 

[Malanu]

You are looking at Physics for your answer where Psychology is the science required. I like this quote.

The flip-side of this error is the fatalistic belief that in a deterministic universe the future somehow already exists, it just has to "unfold". Consequently, in this view, choices that are the product of mechanistic processes don't "really" affect the future. But - the future does not yet exist. There is no roll of film that contains the script of the future, just waiting to be projected, viewed, experienced. We do not live in time - time is a measure of change. The past and future exist only in our memories and imagination. It is only the present that exists - parameters and choices of the present create the future. The future is not written, it unfolds and develops according to both blind and aware choices.

His conclusion was:

The "freedom" in freewill is the glorious ability of our minds to reprogram themselves and to evaluate automatic thoughts and emotions. We all have this ability, and we all choose to utilize it to a greater or lesser degree. The effects of nature, nurture, random events, and past decisions are not eliminated, but can be modified by our ability to project consequences and by our power to influence choices - by our awareness of freewill itself. All of this abstract thinking, projecting and deciding is the product of mechanistic causation, determined but not determinable. It is this freedom that makes us human.

 

[Ludwig]

You are looking at Physics for your answer where Psychology is the science required. I like this quote.


His conclusion was:

For the "reprogramming" to change anything, it would need to disobey the laws of physics in that the change from one moment to the next would be something else than how the universe is defined.

Even if the future doesn't exist, it can be inductively be predicted if there exist absolute laws. The future not being decided contradicts that the universe is deterministic.

 

[Malanu]

Exactly. It is not decided. Again you are applying the wrong science to make your case. Free will is a Psychological phenomenon not mechanical, thus not controlled by physics.

Let's not squander our freewill by boxing ourselves in with irrational beliefs and counter-productive emotions, poor thinking, or lack of knowledge. The widespread awareness of this new understanding of freewill may help to usher in a great new era of human development based on a morality of reason and understanding, in which true knowledge of the nature of man leads us to a workable pro Optimal Living ethic and psychology, that minimize tribalism and foster individual responsibility. We can reach a new peak of human greatness: The third phase in human development - from primarily genetic determinism, to largely social determinism, to self-determination - is achieved by greater use of freewill and reason[10]. The evolution of mankind is now in our own hands, the genie of freewill is out of the bottle and we cannot put her back. Let's make the most of our free wishes.

 

[Ludwig]

Exactly. It is not decided. Again you are applying the wrong science to make your case. Free will is a Psychological phenomenon not mechanical, thus not controlled by physics.

Will is a product of the brain, which is made of matter. The behavior of matter is studied in physics and the results from physics will therefore indirectly also apply to our minds.

It not being decided implies that the universe is not deterministic, because it not being decided contradicts that it is deterministic. Matter have been proven to obey laws, that's why chemists always get the same substance when mixing the same other substances during similar circumstances. The laws doesn't contain any randomness, which implies that the universe is deterministic and if the universe is deterministic the future needs to already have been decided.

 

[Malanu]

Explain how behavior is explained by physics, because so far all you have done is reply in circles. If thoughts and feelings were matter you would see them or be able to touch them. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Ludwig]

Explain how behavior is explained by physics, because so far all you have done is reply in circles. If thoughts and feelings were matter you would see them or be able to touch them. Your logic is flawed.

Thoughts and feelings are interactions between matter and electrical charges in the brain, which are dependent on the matter that the brain is made of. Because the brain is made of matter, the thoughts and feelings are indirect results of interactions with other matter.

 

[Malanu]

You just described a computer! Which cannot choose to turn itself on, choose what website to go to, or type out a sentence, without a free-willed person to program it or to tell it what to do.

So your physics answer, fails to account for our ability to choose A over B or to ignore both and do C.

 

[Ludwig]

You just described a computer! Which cannot choose to turn itself on, choose what website to go to, or type out a sentence, without a free-willed person to program it or to tell it what to do.

So your physics answer, fails to account for our ability to choose A over B or to ignore both and do C.

Our are also interactions between matter and electrical charges. A brain is structured differently than a computer and the input is from our senses, but it's still just chain reactions to input.