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Galar Dex Controversy

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Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
My stance is still the same:

It doesn't affect me, because I don't transfer Pokemon, but at the same time I think this is a bad thing to happen to the series, because I know lots of other people will be negatively affected by their favourite Pokemon being missing and it opens up the possibility of Pokemon species being forgotten about and left behind as the series advances.

None of the justifications Gamefreak has brought up so far have convinced me that cutting out Pokemon is a necessity or even an acceptable tradeoff and I hope that the backlash will convince them to revise this policy for future games.
 

Nockturne

Well-Known Member
It’s more the fact that Gamefreak have blatantly lied to us about why it’s happened.

I wouldn’t be so annoyed by it if they had given honest reasons for it. But now I just feel like they are tricking us into buying crap.
How are you being tricked into buying crap?

You might not think they've been honest about the why but they have been honest about the what. The game won't have all the Pokemon in it. So if you buy the games, you do so knowing you're buying a game that doesn't have all the Pokemon in it. And if that makes the game crap to you, you knowingly bought a game you think is crap. You aren't being tricked at all. You don't HAVE to buy the game if the reduced dex is a deal breaker for you, if you buy it anyway that's on you.
 

dss_live

Water and Fairy-type master
This. It's a dumb trade-off. Pokémon are the focal point of this franchise, and anything else should come secondary to that. I would gladly take USUM graphics just copy-pasted over unchanged if it meant we could have a full dex.

I disagree with that, quality over quantity. I'm not gonna argue the validity of the reasons behind it. But the simple idea that they should not take games to another level of quality just to keep all of the pokemon, to me, is something i can't get behind. Games should always look to improve all their features as they go on. In some cases that's simply not possible. So one feature gets pulled back to allow all the rest to grow further. Especially when your audience is extremely varied and will almost never fully agree on what that most important feature is that should be kept/improved upon. This is my opinion on any game, not just pokemon.

Not to mention, the shitstorm that would exist if we'd be getting new switch games that looked exactly like SM would be just as big. Gamefreak would be called lazy and greedy. They would still be targetted for thazt decision the same as they are for this one. And i'm 100% sure that if they did that, you would still be here saying the same things , the same criticism towards gamefreak, as you do for dexit.

Do I think their reasoning is the most sound ever for making this decision? no. I'm, also not gonna pretend to know the ins and outs of gamefreak as a company and how they work internally. And in the end I make my decision on the games based on the information i get, and what i see. And most importantly, what affects me personally when playing these games. In the end, the core themes and values of pokemon are still present. You set out on your journey meeting new and old pokemon along the way and work your way to be the strongest trainer in the region fighting along side your pokemon, even with dexit that is still the thing. Which is why , even though I wish dexit wasn't a thing, it's not a gamebreaker.

It’s more the fact that Gamefreak have blatantly lied to us about why it’s happened.

I wouldn’t be so annoyed by it if they had given honest reasons for it. But now I just feel like they are tricking us into buying crap.

There is no concrete prove that it is a flatfaced lie. Like it or not, saying they're lieing about is is just as inconceived as saying it's 100% the truth. In the end, no one knows whats happening behind the scenes. Making assumptions helps no one.

To be tricked into buying their ****, they would be lieing about whats in the games, not about why certain things aren't in the game. They've been very honest about a very divisive subject in stating outright "look not all pokemon will be present". Whether you like the reasons behind their decision, or even believe them, does not mean they're "tricking" you.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
Honestly, I've pretty much settled for what we're going to get [or more accurately, not get] at this point. I don't like "Dexit" one bit, but at this stage it seems like it's too late for Game Freak to do anything about it, unless they change their minds after the games are released and they make some kind of patch that'll include the missing Pokemon, but that's just wishful thinking on my part. And I probably wouldn't have that much of a problem with "Dexit" if it weren't for the fact that Game Freak's staff issued such a lame apology message a couple of weeks ago that felt rather patronizing. I can forgive the exclusion of some Pokemon in Shield and Sword, but I don't like the feeling that I'm being talked down to by the games' development team.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
My stance on this is this: let people complain. Let people not care about this controversy. Enjoy the game for what you see it as. I don’t think anyone else besides you is going to be purchasing your copy of SWSH and after the countless failed attempts to stop the controversy, why even bother arguing? This is not to say you can’t have an opinion nor can you voice your opinion. You can’t change how other people respond to this so it just seems like a waste of time and energy to keep at it.
Yeah, I pretty much feel this way. However, I feel like this thread may help concentrate this matter so we don't have to talk about it in the General Discussion.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I disagree with that, quality over quantity. I'm not gonna argue the validity of the reasons behind it. But the simple idea that they should not take games to another level of quality just to keep all of the pokemon, to me, is something i can't get behind. Games should always look to improve all their features as they go on. In some cases that's simply not possible. So one feature gets pulled back to allow all the rest to grow further. Especially when your audience is extremely varied and will almost never fully agree on what that most important feature is that should be kept/improved upon. This is my opinion on any game, not just pokemon.
Except aside from graphics (which just aren't that important to me) I don't see that improvement whatsoever. It's still the same eight gyms to trivially beat, the same league at the end, and so on. There's a bit of new fluff surrounding it like a background of NPCs cheering and so on, but that's not gameplay. That's decoration. The wild area doesn't interest me much, it seems like an overly complicated way of catching pokémon that seems just frustratingly hindered by matters beyond the player's control, namely weather availability, the whims and woes of multiplayer availability, or execution of NPC partners (which given GameFreak's history in making these support the player isn't exactly promising with the most recent Battle Agency being an absolute low where they're essentially useless). The Battle Spot being locked behind a paywall of Nintendo Switch Online is most likely going to reduce the availability of matches compared to what was available in Alola games.

The battle system, at least from what we know so far, doesn't seem more balanced than in Alola. Dynamaxing appears to be very skewed in which pokémon favour the boosts and to which ones they aren't useful, harking back to the gen 3 and before times where whether or not a pokémon type was physical or special and how that corresponded with the stats of the pokémon was fundamental in how useful a pokémon was. Gigantamaxing seems to be mega evolution repeated with the exact same mistake they made back then, only giving the buff to a select few pokémon and leaving the rest empty-handed, it's something Z-Moves just did way better overall.

So I ask you, where is the improved quality? I don't see it.

Not to mention, the shitstorm that would exist if we'd be getting new switch games that looked exactly like SM would be just as big. Gamefreak would be called lazy and greedy. They would still be targetted for thazt decision the same as they are for this one. And i'm 100% sure that if they did that, you would still be here saying the same things , the same criticism towards gamefreak, as you do for dexit.

Maybe it would be, maybe not. I don't know. I don't live in that timeline, and I presume neither do you. Also, that last sentence is completely wrong and unfair. You do not know me, you do not know how I would respond in that situation, and it is unfair to put me into a different fictional situation, pretend to know what I'd do there, and then attacking me over that fictional response.

Do I think their reasoning is the most sound ever for making this decision? no. I'm, also not gonna pretend to know the ins and outs of gamefreak as a company and how they work internally. And in the end I make my decision on the games based on the information i get, and what i see. And most importantly, what affects me personally when playing these games. In the end, the core themes and values of pokemon are still present. You set out on your journey meeting new and old pokemon along the way and work your way to be the strongest trainer in the region fighting along side your pokemon, even with dexit that is still the thing. Which is why , even though I wish dexit wasn't a thing, it's not a gamebreaker.

Depends on what you consider core themes and values of pokémon. Different people value different things in this franchise. The official pokémon twitter account still has "catching 'em all" in their description, and it was part of the opening song and mottos for a long time, even as recent as Kalos. And that portion is not in Galar. To me a large portion of what I like in the gameplay is finding solutions and puzzling out new movesets and strategies among hundreds of available pokémon, their stats, their abilities, their movesets, their hold items, and so on, and trying to make them work. I have over 1000 battles on the Battle Spot in Ultra Sun with various teams, and plenty of times when I needed a specific niche for my team there was only a single one among all 800+ that actually fit. Dexit is devastating for that puzzle element to me, much more than before I'll be faced with not being able to make a team at all because a pokémon I need isn't in the game.
 
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Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
There's a bit of new fluff surrounding it like a background of NPCs cheering and so on, but that's not gameplay. That's decoration.

And decoration that shouldn't take that much work. Just copy pasting the NPC models from other parts of the game (maybe with slightly altered textures to fit the Gym's colour) and making them do the "cheer" animation. Done.
 

dss_live

Water and Fairy-type master
Except aside from graphics (which just aren't that important to me) I don't see that improvement whatsoever. It's still the same eight gyms to trivially beat, the same league at the end, and so on. There's a bit of new fluff surrounding it like a background of NPCs cheering and so on, but that's not gameplay. That's decoration. The wild area doesn't interest me much, it seems like an overly complicated way of catching pokémon that seems just frustratingly hindered by matters beyond the player's control, namely weather availability, the whims and woes of multiplayer availability, or execution of NPC partners (which given GameFreak's history in making these support the player isn't exactly promising with the most recent Battle Agency being an absolute low where they're essentially useless). The Battle Spot being locked behind a paywall of Nintendo Switch Online is most likely reduce the availability of matches compared to what was available in Alola games.

The battle system, at least from what we know so far, doesn't seem more balanced than in Alola. Dynamaxing appears to be very skewed in which pokémon favour the boosts and to which ones they aren't useful, harking back to the gen 3 and before times where whether or not a pokémon type was physical or special and how that corresponded with the stats of the pokémon was fundamental in how useful a pokémon was. Gigantamaxing seems to be mega evolution repeated with the exact same mistake they made back then, only giving the buff to a select few pokémon and leaving the rest empty-handed.

So I ask you, where is the improved quality? I don't see it.

You named several improvements, just because you personally don't care about them doesn't change them being improvements. The wild area is a big thing. The raiding system overs a new way for people to play together in a cooperative way, that is a good thing, improving on the options given for more co-op actions. The graphics are most definately improved. Like, i'm sorry, but they're are a good step up from USUM. Even if that one famous tree remains how it is. Every single other piece of footage has clearly shown improvements into how the game looks. Regardless of whether it's important to you.

Maybe it would be, maybe not. I don't know. I don't live in that timeline, and I presume neither do you. Also, that last sentence is completely wrong and unfair. You do not know me, you do not know how I would respond in that situation, and it is unfair to put me into a different fictional situation, pretend to know what I'd do there, and then attacking me over a fictional response.

First of all, right of the bat. There was no attack whatsoever on you, i don't know where you got that idea. No i don't know 100% , true, i'l change it to 80%. But considering the fact that the main thing gamefreak is being called out for is being lazy. That same exact thing would be said if they didn't improve a single thing and just added more pokemon. And of that, the general reaction, and not just yours, i can say that i'm 100% sure they would be a thing. Call it a calculated guess if you want. (or an attack coze apparantly guessing how people are going to react is attacking them)
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
I think there's a lot of people conflating lazy development with efficient development, especially when it comes to Hau and Hop's arm animation. If an asset can be reused without really taking away from the quality of the game, then reusing that asset instead of making a whole new one frees up dev time for content that actually will have an impact on the game. Sure, there's a limit to this principle, but the animations are such a minor thing that I think it's safe to say they fall under its umbrella. Is anyone's gameplay experience actually going to be at all affected by the fact that one of Hop's animations is recycled? I think not.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
First of all, right of the bat. There was no attack whatsoever on you, i don't know where you got that idea. No i don't know 100% , true, i'l change it to 80%. But considering the fact that the main thing gamefreak is being called out for is being lazy. That same exact thing would be said if they didn't improve a single thing and just added more pokemon. And of that, the general reaction, and not just yours, i can say that i'm 100% sure they would be a thing. Call it a calculated guess if you want. (or an attack coze apparantly guessing how people are going to react is attacking them)
If you are quoting me, and then saying "You would 100% do this" and stuff like that (paraphrasing here), then yes, I am going to assume you're talking about me. I have never ever called GameFreak lazy. Check my post history if you want. And yeah, sure some people would still call GameFreak lazy in that situation. There will always be people unhappy no matter what decision you make, and a portion of those people wouldn't be the most constructive or clear in voicing their criticisms, some may even be misguided along the way, but that doesn't in any way dismiss the validity of the complaints themselves, especially when that number of people and the severity of their malcontent does vary between different development and marketing approaches. Some people were also upset that there were no Gyms in Alola, but those complaints weren't nearly as severe or numerous as the complaints about Dexit.
I think there's a lot of people conflating lazy development with efficient development, especially when it comes to Hau and Hop's arm animation. If an asset can be reused without really taking away from the quality of the game, then reusing that asset instead of making a whole new one frees up dev time for content that actually will have an impact on the game. Sure, there's a limit to this principle, but the animations are such a minor thing that I think it's safe to say they fall under its umbrella. Is anyone's gameplay experience actually going to be at all affected by the fact that one of Hop's animations is recycled? I think not.
I think it's mostly which assets are reused. I don't mind assets being reused. But when pokémon assets apparently can't be reused to a sufficiently efficient degree and as a result pokémon species are cut to improve graphical quality in the remaining game where graphical assets are reused (where you'd expect the improvement), then that sparks a bit of controversy.
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
Yeah I don’t get why people are overreacting to what’s actually a good way to reuse an asset, which in this case being similar arm movements from Hop and Hau.

“Oh no this guy’s arms are moving like someone else’s I’m terrified! Turn on the weather channel”
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Yeah I don’t get why people are overreacting to what’s actually a good way to reuse an asset, which in this case being similar arm movements from Hop and Hau.

“Oh no this guy’s arms are moving like someone else’s I’m terrified! Turn on the weather channel”
The fundamental issue is obviously not that though... let's not generalise complaints to ridicule them here...
 

dss_live

Water and Fairy-type master
If you are quoting me, and then saying "You would 100% do this" and stuff like that (paraphrasing here), then yes, I am going to assume you're talking about me. I have never ever called GameFreak lazy. Check my post history if you want. And yeah, sure some people would still call GameFreak lazy in that situation. There will always be people unhappy no matter what decision you make, and a portion of those people wouldn't be the most constructive or clear in voicing their criticisms, some may even be misguided along the way, but that doesn't in any way dismiss the validity of the complaints themselves, especially when that number of people and the state of their malcontent does vary between different approaches. Some people were also upset that there were no Gyms in Alola, but those complaints weren't nearly as severe or numerous as the complaints about Dexit.

Fair enough on the part that you prolly never outright said lazy, though some of your points may come across as such, i can definately concede that those are just what i understood of what you were saying.

And, yes, i was talking about you. I didn't say i wasn't. What i did say was that i was not attacking you. There's a big difference between an attack and making a guess at what you'd say based on the arguments made in the current situation. A guess which was made by apparantly a misunderstanding in what you meant to say, as i noted in my first line.

Have i ever claimed they had no validity in their complaints at all? Because i'm fairly sure i've not. There is also quite a difference between "no gyms" and keeping everything the same as it was in SM.
 

dss_live

Water and Fairy-type master
Yeah I don’t get why people are overreacting to what’s actually a good way to reuse an asset, which in this case being similar arm movements from Hop and Hau.

“Oh no this guy’s arms are moving like someone else’s I’m terrified! Turn on the weather channel”

The fundamental issue is obviously not that though... let's not generalise complaints to ridicule them here...

Most game companies reuse assets, it's a smart thing to do. Why create a new animation for something you already have when that time can be spend on creating something new altogether. It's common practice.

I do understand why people comment on it, though. People were given a reason as to why dexit happened. This reason was to allow for work to be done to make animations more lively and expressive. So that is what people are going to be looking at, that's going to be their main focus, to see "was it worth it?". So, the mere idea that they're reusing these animations gives people the fear that they reused a lot more than just that. In turn it gives the idea that there is no truth whatsoever in what they're saying.

However, i just don't think the way hop moves his arms being a reused animation matters all that much. It does not outrightly mean they were completely lieing about it being a reason (nor it being completely true). So i don't think it's fair to ridicule why people are pointing it out. If you don't agree with it, you can disagree without making large generalizations about people who do bring it up.
 

Shayminslicker

Comes out of Nowhere
I understand why people don't like this. It's disappointing not being able to see the Pokemon you had a connection to not being able to come into Sword and Shield. Though this has been going on for a few weeks now and I think it's starting to get a little out of hand with people literally spamming Pokemon's Facebook account with #Dexit comments on literally anything TCPI posts, even if it has nothing to do with Sw/Sh.

I don't think this is such a big deal anymore (in my eyes anyway) as I don't think this is the worst thing ever and it probably won't affect the overall gameplay experience. Yes, I do hate that they removed Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves, but who knows? They might just come back someday. I won't let this one thing ruin Sword and Shield for me.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
I understand that people are angry that GameFreak intends to limit the number of Pokemon for SwSh but honestly it's pretty annoying to hear certain fans call GameFreak lazy considering that video game crunching is controversial not because people are lazy and just slapped some stuff together at the last second but because people have to stressfully work even harder under a limited amount of time.
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
B2/W2 were still a kind of third version in that it was made in the same region with many returning locations with major changes and new locations to breathe new life. Gen 2 is a direct sequel to Gen 1 and even back in the early 2000s they did a better job with adding on as a whole than they are today.

Generation II also reflected a radically different design philosophy: make the game we want, and try to make money off that. Not, "make a safe game designed to target a consistent, lucrative audience". 1999 GameFreak is much closer in ideology to today's Studio MDHR, the creators of Cuphead, while 2019 GameFreak is like EA Games.

There's no better example of this than Dynamaxing.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Generation II also reflected a radically different design philosophy: make the game we want, and try to make money off that. Not, "make a safe game designed to target a consistent, lucrative audience". 1999 GameFreak is much closer in ideology to today's Studio MDHR, the creators of Cuphead, while 2019 GameFreak is like EA Games.

There's no better example of this than Dynamaxing.
I love Gen II, it's my favorite Gen. But you seem to be forgetting a very important detail. GSC were designed as the last set of games. Pokemon was popular, but it didn't explode until Gen II was released, and there was no letting go of it then. Need I remind you that there was a similar controversy between Gens II and III, and that one was one that couldn't be fixed due to the extreme design changes between those Gens, including a complete overhaul of the IV system.



And Dynamaxing isn't what anyone would call a safe decision given how much ridicule it got when first announced.
 

DMB1985

Well-Known Member
Whilst I do find Dexit a tad disappointing, it doesn't overly bother me. I haven't completed the dex since Red and Blue so it's not like I'm going to start doing so now. But when the reasons for cutting Pokémon is for better graphics and animations, I expect to see graphics and animations at he top end of what the Switch is capable of. Whilst I do think the character models are generally quite nice, environmental models and textures are poor and the animations just aren't good enough. This is what annoys me about the whole issue.
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
GSC were designed as the last set of games. Pokemon was popular, but it didn't explode until Gen II was released, and there was no letting go of it then. Need I remind you that there was a similar controversy between Gens II and III, and that one was one that couldn't be fixed due to the extreme design changes between those Gens, including a complete overhaul of the IV system.

I don't remember Nintendo or anyone saying GSC was "the last" set of Pokemon games. At the time, we felt like they should have been, since Pokemania was dying out, people were getting older and RSE looked like it was taking the franchise in the wrong direction with a "digimon" like Blaziken.

As for the Gen II Gen III compatibility issue...no, the lack of compatibility between the two wasn't a technical limitation. GameFreak could have invented a conversion mechanism and transferring the data itself isn't difficult. Virtual console's ease of digital transfers should debunk that myth.

By Generation III, Niintendo was more willing to pressure GameFreak to try and monetize Pokemon. Why support a dead platform like the GameBoy, when you could remake and re-release the RBY games on the new must-have GBA? That's what lead to FRLG, which I felt was insulting and a big reason why I skipped Generation III and IV.

And Dynamaxing isn't what anyone would call a safe decision given how much ridicule it got when first announced.

Safe has a specific meaning - an option that has had a prove history of success. If you break down the Gen VI and Gen VII gimmicks to their core elements:

-design change
-stats change
-move change

Dynamax is 100% safe because it does nothing new. If anything, by including Gigantamax alongside it, GameFreak is trying to please both people who like design changes and those who don't like it.
 
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