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Galar Dex Controversy

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AgentKallus

It's not a game Kate.
I think that the controversy is an important issue that should be discussed, however it is not the only thing in sword/shield so it doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseam in every single thread. Hence my creation of this thread so that the main 'dexit' discussion can happen here without messing with the other thread but not ignoring it either.

I personally am very disappointed by it but I don't want to let it to ruin my enjoyment of the games as they still look fun.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Dexit isn't something that you can just discuss separately so that others can have their safe space. It is a negative point that is traded off against other features in the game, like the graphics. It can't just be discussed separately from those. There is no discussion separate from those possible beyond "It sucks because my pokémon can't come in." or "My favourite pokémon got through so I don't care." Anything beyond that already gripes to the combat options, playthroughs in the gyms, the graphics that are so much better as a result, and so on.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Dexit isn't something that you can just discuss separately so that others can have their safe space. It is a negative point that is traded off against other features in the game, like the graphics. It can't just be discussed separately from those. There is no discussion separate from those possible beyond "It sucks because my pokémon can't come in." or "My favourite pokémon got through so I don't care." Anything beyond that already gripes to the combat options, playthroughs in the gyms, the graphics that are so much better as a result, and so on.

There comes a point when literally every argument in a debate has been thoroughly exhausted and there's no longer any point discussing it by repeating the same arguments over and over again and making absolutely zero progress. The Dexit discussions are no longer productive and nothing new has been brought up in weeks. It's the same tired old points, and the same tired old counterpoints again and again and again. They suppress conversations about new topics that could potentially be interesting, and haven't been beaten to death for over a month now.

Yeah, people are upset, and they should be able to express their grievances, but the fact of the matter is that arguing and complaining about Dexit accomplishes nothing, and arguing with people complaining about Dexit also accomplishes nothing, and both actively harm other conversations. Giving Dexit its own separate thread should be a compromise that makes everyone happy, unless for some reason you want every conversation about Sword and Shield to be tied into Dexit no matter what.
 

AgentKallus

It's not a game Kate.
Dexit isn't something that you can just discuss separately so that others can have their safe space

Of course. Indeed nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all related however if your solely discussing this issues then it makes sense for it to have it's own thread but if your discussing how it relates to other thing then say that in those things threads. for example I think the new Pokemon thread should be use for discussing primarily new pokemon and not the pokedex in general for example or the new character should be a about the new characters and not the map but if the map relates to the new characters then that makes sense to discus there, the same applies to dexit right and such an impact-full decision surely needs it's own thread no?

Makes sense, no?
 

Nockturne

Well-Known Member
I get why people are disappointed, I'm disappointed as well, but I don't understand people who are angry. Had the games been released without them saying anything and people bought them without knowing, yeah I'd get anger there, but given the situation the level of vitriol seems inappropriate and honestly kind of unhealthy.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
I get why people are disappointed, I'm disappointed as well, but I don't understand people who are angry. Had the games been released without them saying anything and people bought them without knowing, yeah I'd get anger there, but given the situation the level of vitriol seems inappropriate and honestly kind of unhealthy.

I'd say its less about the National Dex exclusion, and more about Gamefreak's reasons which have all been very unconvincing for fans. The trade-off of seeing many Pokémon missing in favor of 'higher quality' animations just doesn't seem good enough.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I'd say its less about the National Dex exclusion, and more about Gamefreak's reasons which have all been very unconvincing for fans. The trade-off of seeing many Pokémon missing in favor of 'higher quality' animations just doesn't seem good enough.
This. It's a dumb trade-off. Pokémon are the focal point of this franchise, and anything else should come secondary to that. I would gladly take USUM graphics just copy-pasted over unchanged if it meant we could have a full dex.
 

Cometstarlight

What do I do now?
I get why people are disappointed, I'm disappointed as well, but I don't understand people who are angry. Had the games been released without them saying anything and people bought them without knowing, yeah I'd get anger there, but given the situation the level of vitriol seems inappropriate and honestly kind of unhealthy.

But then people would be monumentally pissed because they would see that as GF actively deceiving them (because it would be). My problem with the dex controversy isn't just that a favorite may be left out, but it's the next symptom of a more and more noticeable string of problems that Pokemon has had over the generations. In X and Y, there's a power plant with several doors/corridors. We only get to go in one while the others are still locked tight with buildings in the background. We thought we'd explore this in the third version or some Wi-fi event. We got no third version, the national dex in that game largely reused descriptions of pokemon not in the regional dex, there was barely any post game, not to mention the whole ORAS battle frontier fiasco. They didn't even bother to copy/paste Pokemon not in the regional dex for all of Gen 7. Very little changes were made in S/M to US/UM compared to their Gen 5 counterparts and while there was a bigger after game, it still felt lacking.

Another problem in the "we're not including the national dex so we can work on more animations, etc." is that it's not holding any water. At all. Something Pokemon that hasn't been bashed too much over the years was their quality of animation and graphics in general because they've been able to uphold some sort of standard of fun for their audience. Now that they're moving to a console which has more of everything, fans are told, "Nah, fam, not enough space," which is completely untrue. If you can fit 800+ creatures on a hand held, you can fit them on a console. I digress, the animation and graphics in Sw/Sh aren't all that impressive in terms of normal games. In terms of Pokemon, heck yeah, it looks great, but we're used to seeing pixilated stuff on a 3DS screen.

Take a look at Hop's animation in the trailer. It's exactly the same as Hau's from Gen 7. They're just porting stuff. Look at the Pokemon's battle animations and compare it to Genius Sonority (the people who worked on the Shadow games and Battle Revolution). The Pokemon have unique animations. Kecleon is twitchy, Hariyama is constantly doing these sumo wrestler gestures, Monferno gets aggressive and roars before wiping his face. We already know GF is recycling all the animations from Gen 7. Scorbunny's idle animation is kinda fun, until you see the animation of the move double kick which it keeps the same animation and barely rises off the ground. My point is that Genius Sonority did it, so why can't GF?

So it's not just that "X Pokemon isn't in it, so I'm mad." It's the latest in a series of "mainstays" with Pokemon that have hit the wayside more and more with each generation. Things that built up over time that people noticed, but didn't really raise alarms about. I'd be happy for them to delay the game if it meant that paid more attention to it/did it justice. Oddly enough, I think Gen 5 was the last game that really, really had the effort put in to it and I don't even like Gen 5 as much as the other gens. But anyway, rant over.
 
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TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
But then people would be monumentally pissed because they would see that as GF actively deceiving them (because it would be). My problem with the dex controversy isn't just that a favorite may be left out, but it's the next symptom of a more and more noticeable string of problems that Pokemon has had over the generations. Gen 6 had an area that was completely locked off, but insinuated that something was up (the power plant on the desert route). People thought we'd see it in the third version. We got no third version, the national dex in that game largely reused descriptions of pokemon not in the regional dex, there was barely any post game, not to mention the whole ORAS battle frontier fiasco. They didn't even bother to copy/paste Pokemon not in the regional dex for all of Gen 7. Very little changes were made in S/M to US/UM compared to their Gen 5 counterparts and while there was a bigger after game, it still felt lacking.

Another problem in the "we're not including the national dex so we can work on more animations, etc." is that it's not holding any water. At all. Something Pokemon that hasn't been bashed too much over the years was their quality of animation and graphics in general because they've been able to uphold some sort of standard of fun for their audience. Now that they're moving to a console which has more of everything, fans are told, "Nah, fam, not enough space," which is completely untrue. If you can fit 800+ creatures on a hand held, you can fit them on a console. I digress, the animation and graphics in Sw/Sh aren't all that impressive in terms of normal games. In terms of Pokemon, heck yeah, it looks great, but we're used to seeing pixilated stuff on a 3DS screen.

Take a look at Hop's animation in the trailer. It's exactly the same as Hau's from Gen 7. They're just porting stuff. Look at the Pokemon's battle animations and compare it to Genius Sonority (the people who worked on the Shadow games and Battle Revolution). The Pokemon have unique animations. Kecleon is twitchy, Hariyama is constantly doing these sumo wrestler gestures, Monferno gets aggressive and roars before wiping his face. We already know GF is recycling all the animations from Gen 7. Scorbunny's idle animation is kinda fun, until you see the animation of the move double kick which it keeps the same animation and barely rises off the ground. My point is that Genius Sonority did it, so why can't GF?

So it's not just that "X Pokemon isn't in it, so I'm mad." It's the latest in a series of "mainstays" with Pokemon that have hit the wayside more and more with each generation. Things that built up over time that people noticed, but didn't really raise alarms about. I'd be happy for them to delay the game if it meant that paid more attention to it/did it justice. Oddly enough, I think Gen 5 was the last game that really, really had the effort put in to it and I don't even like Gen 5 as much as the other gens. But anyway, rant over.
Well, B2W2 was a special case in that it was literal sequels rather than a third version. And the Power Plant was part of Team Flare, not locked off?
 

Cometstarlight

What do I do now?
Well, B2W2 was a special case in that it was literal sequels rather than a third version. And the Power Plant was part of Team Flare, not locked off?

At first, I thought you were right, but I dug out my X version and saw that we're both right. One of the (2 or 3) buildings opens via the key in game. But the others are locked and say so. People thought it would be for a Volcanion event, but....no.

B2/W2 were still a kind of third version in that it was made in the same region with many returning locations with major changes and new locations to breathe new life. Gen 2 is a direct sequel to Gen 1 and even back in the early 2000s they did a better job with adding on as a whole than they are today.
 

TsengHyena

Well-Known Member
A large reason why Dexit is so bad for Pokemon is frankly cause we havent seen any evidence of what improvements we gained. That, and they are being more secret than the CIA when it comes to Pokemon Home.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
My stance on this is this: let people complain. Let people not care about this controversy. Enjoy the game for what you see it as. I don’t think anyone else besides you is going to be purchasing your copy of SWSH and after the countless failed attempts to stop the controversy, why even bother arguing? This is not to say you can’t have an opinion nor can you voice your opinion. You can’t change how other people respond to this so it just seems like a waste of time and energy to keep at it.
 

Cometstarlight

What do I do now?
My stance on this is this: let people complain. Let people not care about this controversy. Enjoy the game for what you see it as. I don’t think anyone else besides you is going to be purchasing your copy of SWSH and after the countless failed attempts to stop the controversy, why even bother arguing? This is not to say you can’t have an opinion nor can you voice your opinion. You can’t change how other people respond to this so it just seems like a waste of time and energy to keep at it.

It's more so people from the outside can understand what's happening. If GF doesn't get any backlash, they'll think, "Oh, cool, we can do this. What else can we do," or just not change anything. Also, you can totally change a person's opinion on something. I was on the fence before I saw how bad these "graphical upgrades" were. So that doesn't seem like a valid reason.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
It's more so people from the outside can understand what's happening. If GF doesn't get any backlash, they'll think, "Oh, cool, we can do this. What else can we do," or just not change anything. Also, you can totally change a person's opinion on something. I was on the fence before I saw how bad these "graphical upgrades" were. So that doesn't seem like a valid reason.
I’m sure arguing the same points on a random forum will change GF’s work ethic. And the thing is GF had already had enough backlash. As I said, there’s no point in arguing. I clearly said you’re allowed to voice your opinion. Tell me how far you get to changing the state of National Dex in SWSH with the way things are going rn. Curious to see where it goes

Changing a person’s opinion was hyperbole. Most people are naturally stubborn to their beliefs
 

catzeye

Writer's Block
I think @Ignition said my thoughts on the issue better than I can probably state it. At the end of the day we all play Pokemon for different reasons so the decision affects people differently. People are allowed to have a positive, neutral or negative opinion on the Dexit issue. That's fine. They are allowed to purchase/not purchase SwSh. That's also fine. What's not fine is people insulting others for having a view different than them. Going on to the main Pokemon subreddit and saying something neutral or even positive about SwSh is likely to get you downvoted into oblivion. Twitter is a dumpster fire that crossed the line several times on both sides (more so on the #bringbacknationaldex).

I don't like the culling of the dex and removal of megas (mainly because unlike Z-moves they were shown to be multi-regional and a more integral part of the lore of the Pokemon World as a whole), but I can't align myself with the #bringbacknationaldex movement with the way a lot of people have been acting on that side (not saying that there haven't been jerks on the opposing sides).
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
I don't get the "Game Freak lied" schtick.

Like, maybe their reason wasn't good enough, but Sword and Shield have better graphics than Sun and Moon. They probably made the cut so they can achieve that end.

Whether you think the graphical updates are that much better or if it was worth the dex cut is up to you, but I don't think calling Game Freak liars is accurate or fair.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
I'd say its less about the National Dex exclusion, and more about Gamefreak's reasons which have all been very unconvincing for fans. The trade-off of seeing many Pokémon missing in favor of 'higher quality' animations just doesn't seem good enough.
Especially given the quality of the animations
 
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