Gameplay Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

[KickAsh]

You meant Jubilife, right? Anyway, I think this is the main reason why exploring Unova pre-E4 seemed so"linear".

In previous regions, you had to revisit previous cities in order to proceed to your next destination. In Unova, you go on a continuous direction -- like a straight line.

Spoiler: Comparison

In Kanto...
:: You traverse Viridian thrice -- (a) west to 22 to battle Blue for the first time, (b) north to Viridian forest, (c) challenge the 8th gym and proceed to the League.
:: Return to Cerulean twice -- (a) after visitng Bill, (b) to proceed east to Rock Tunnel.
:: You have two options to reach Fuchsia City.
:: You return to Lavender to obtain the Silph Scope.
:: You traverse Pallet again from Cinnabar to head to Viridian. (optional)

In Johto...
:: You pass through Cherrygrove and return to New Bark several times in the beginning.
:: You return to Olivine from Cianwood to heal Amphy then battle Jasmine.
:: You return to Ecruteak to proceed to Mahogany.
:: You return to Mahogany after the Lake of Rage.
:: You return to New Bark from Blackthorn to proceed east to the League.

In Hoenn...
:: You return to Littleroot after challenging the rival on Route 103.
:: You return to Rustboro after the Rusturf Tunnel event.
:: You traverse Petalburg Forest and Route 104 twice -- (a) north to Rustboro, (b) To ride the boat.
:: You traverse Mauville thice -- (a) west to Verdanturf, (b) north to Route 111, (c) east to Route 118.
:: You cross Route 112 twice -- (a) through Fiery Path, (b) cable car ride
:: You return to Petalburg to battle Norman.

In Sinnoh...
:: You return to Twinleaf after visiting Lake Verity.
:: You traverse Jubilife thrice -- (a) west to Oreburgh, (b) north to Floaroma, (c) east to Canalave.
:: You traverse Mt. Coronet a lot of times.
:: You traverse Hearthome twice -- (a) east to Solaceon, (b) South to Pastoria.

In Unova...
:: You revisit Route 4 and Relic Castle later in the game.

I did not consider the Dreamyard and Dragonspiral Tower because they are located exactly next to the city, unlike Rusturf Tunnel and Lake of Rage which is separated by routes.

There might be others I haven't mentioned but you get my point.

Unova felt different and very linear because of how the map was designed (disregarding all optional areas pre-E4).



I love those themes too, but to each his own.

I actually LIKED the lack of backtracking. I thought a more linear approach was refreshing, not annoying.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

You meant Jubilife, right? Anyway, I think this is the main reason why exploring Unova pre-E4 seemed so"linear".

In previous regions, you had to revisit previous cities in order to proceed to your next destination. In Unova, you go on a continuous direction -- like a straight line.

Spoiler: Comparison

In Kanto...
:: You traverse Viridian thrice -- (a) west to 22 to battle Blue for the first time, (b) north to Viridian forest, (c) challenge the 8th gym and proceed to the League.
:: Return to Cerulean twice -- (a) after visitng Bill, (b) to proceed east to Rock Tunnel.
:: You have two options to reach Fuchsia City.
:: You return to Lavender to obtain the Silph Scope.
:: You traverse Pallet again from Cinnabar to head to Viridian. (optional)

In Johto...
:: You pass through Cherrygrove and return to New Bark several times in the beginning.
:: You return to Olivine from Cianwood to heal Amphy then battle Jasmine.
:: You return to Ecruteak to proceed to Mahogany.
:: You return to Mahogany after the Lake of Rage.
:: You return to New Bark from Blackthorn to proceed east to the League.

In Hoenn...
:: You return to Littleroot after challenging the rival on Route 103.
:: You return to Rustboro after the Rusturf Tunnel event.
:: You traverse Petalburg Forest and Route 104 twice -- (a) north to Rustboro, (b) To ride the boat.
:: You traverse Mauville thice -- (a) west to Verdanturf, (b) north to Route 111, (c) east to Route 118.
:: You cross Route 112 twice -- (a) through Fiery Path, (b) cable car ride
:: You return to Petalburg to battle Norman.

In Sinnoh...
:: You return to Twinleaf after visiting Lake Verity.
:: You traverse Jubilife thrice -- (a) west to Oreburgh, (b) north to Floaroma, (c) east to Canalave.
:: You traverse Mt. Coronet a lot of times.
:: You traverse Hearthome twice -- (a) east to Solaceon, (b) South to Pastoria.

In Unova...
:: You revisit Route 4 and Relic Castle later in the game.

I did not consider the Dreamyard and Dragonspiral Tower because they are located exactly next to the city, unlike Rusturf Tunnel and Lake of Rage which is separated by routes.

There might be others I haven't mentioned but you get my point.

Unova felt different and very linear because of how the map was designed (disregarding all optional areas pre-E4).

This. This is what needs to happen to Unova. It makes it feel much more like an adventure.

technically you don't, You return to the area just outside of Cerulean.

Still part of the city, though. Whether or not you go into the heart of Cerulean is irrelevant.

That because Unova is a bit more industrial region compare to the other past region. So it would make sense that would feel more linear.

I don't understand this at all.

I think the region should be like the newer Zelda dungeons, where there was an easier path to get to an area, but you had to take the more challenging road to get to that area, and then you can unlock the easier path.
It would be linear in a more subtle way and would feel more challenging to newcomers as well as veterans.

They've done that before, usually by way of HMs or some other unlockable that you get at the end of that path. Lemme think of some examples:

-Ledges are used all the time as a way to make going back to certain areas easier than going up the first time.
-Fly is probably the most obvious, once you get it you can travel back to any city you've been to in an instant.

RBYFRLG:

- Your first time through Rt. 2, you have to go through Viridian Forest in order to go between Viridian City and Pewter City, but once you get Cut, you can take a path off to the right that completely bypasses Viridian Forest.
- You have to bypass Saffron City several times by way of the Underground Paths, but after you reach Celadon City by way of Rock Tunnel, you can give the guards a vending machine drink (RBY) or Tea that you get from the woman on the first floor of Celadon Mansion (FRLG), you can finally unlock Saffron City which makes traversing central Kanto a lot easier.
-After you first reach the Secret House in the Safari Zone and get Surf, you can get back to that spot a lot quicker, making it easier to catch Pokemon in that area of the Safari Zone before you're kicked out.

GSCHGSS:

-In order to reach Goldenrod City the first time, you have to go south on Rt. 32 and through Union Cave to Azalea Town, then through Ilex Forest and Rt. 34. But after defeating Whitney, you can get the Squirtbottle from the Flower Shop and remove the Sudowoodo from Rt. 36 to go back to Violet City without having to go through that giant loop again.
-On Rt. 43, you could, if you want, pay 1000P to go through the gatehouse and avoid large patches of tall grass and trainers (although who'd want to?), but once you run Team Rocket out of Mahogany, the Rocket Grunt forcing you to pay him a toll will be gone and you can pass through for free.
-As you journey through Kanto, you unlock several methods of getting back to Johto easier. Your first time through Kanto you take the S.S. Aqua to Vermillion City (technically, it's when you take Rt. 27 to Indigo Plateau, but that's only a small part of Kanto that arguably could be part of both regions), but after that, the S.S. Aqua only runs on certain days. You could Fly to Indigo Plateau, but (IIRC) in GSC you had to walk back to Johto from there. But after you return the Machine Part to Power Plant, you can use the Magnet Train to instantly travel between Goldenrod City and Saffron City. Furthermore, on your way to Indigo Plateau, a guard stops you from progressing to Rt. 22, but when you come from the other end, the guard will let you through.
-South of Fuchsia City, Rt. 19 is blocked off by rubble from the eruption Cinnibar Island, but when you come from the other end, the rubble is finally cleared.

RSE:
-Rusturf Tunnel, designed to connect Rustboro City and Verdanturf Town, is still being constructed the first time you go there. However, once you get Rock Smash by looping around south Hoenn, you can finish the construction by breaking the last two rocks blocking the path. Also, once you get Surf you can Surf across the lake back to Rt. 110.
-Your first time through Rt. 110, you have to take the lower path through the tall grass and fight through many trainers (including Brendan/May) to get to Mauville, but once you get there, you can get a Bike from Rydel and take Cycling Road to avoid the hassle.
-When you first reach Rt. 111, you have to go west to Rt. 112 and go through Fiery Path to continue, but once you beat Flannery, Brendan/May will give you the Go Goggles and you can use the desert as a shortcut.

DPPt:
-On your way to Eterna City the first time, you have to go through the heart of Eterna Forest, but after you get Cut, you can take a side path that bypasses it (which is strangely empty might I add).
-Also, once you get a Bike, you can use it to dash up the slope to get back to Eterna City from Oreburgh City.
-When you go through Stark Mountain the first time, Buck is following you and won't let you use Rock Climb on the many steep slopes inside. But when you go back later, you can use them to get to Heatran's chamber much quicker.

BW:
-Strength serves this purpose occasionally (notably in the Dreamyard and the path to Giant Chasm).
-Your first time through Pinwheel Forest, you have to take the long winding road through the heart of the forest and defeat Team Plasma, but once you defeat them, you can simply take the main path to reach Skyarrow Bridge.

Well yes, but you're still taking a linear route in the sense that you're told where to go and there's not really any choice, which is sort of what Black Doom was talking about unless he really does find walking through Jubilife again euphoric.

It's more interesting when you return with new tools at your disposal (such as HMs) that allow you to do more than you could the first time through, but otherwise, yeah, it's more so the lack of options that worries me.

You mean like Pinwheel Forest, where you have to go through the woods and encounter Team Plasma before you can just go back and forth on the bridge between Nacerene and the SkyArrow Bridge?

That's another one, thank you.

:: You pass through Cherrygrove and return to New Bark several times in the beginning.
:: You return to Littleroot after challenging the rival on Route 103.
:: You return to Twinleaf after visiting Lake Verity.

To be fair, there's typically a lot of back and forth between the first few areas of the game (even in spinoffs). Usually that stops after you get your first badge.

(a) west to 22 to battle Blue for the first time
(a) west to Verdanturf
(b) South to Pastoria

These are optional. Also in regard to Hearthome, you do have to go to Hearthome one extra time in DP, since in those games the gym is closed until you defeat Team Galactic at Celestic Town (and speaking of Celestic Town, in order to get there you have to go back through Rt. 210).

:: You traverse Jubilife thrice -- (a) west to Oreburgh, (b) north to Floaroma, (c) east to Canalave.

Technicality, but you mixed up east and west.

:: You traverse Mt. Coronet a lot of times.

You usually go through different areas of it, though. The only time you go back through an area of Mt. Coronet you've already been through is when you have to go through the south tunnel again to reach the summit. And the one time you need to go through the north tunnel requires you to go back to either Eterna City or Celestic Town.

 

[blaze boy]

I don't understand this at all.

Compare Unova to the past region you will see that route between city are shorter and and don't require you go many through caves. Furthermore the fact that cut is the only HM required to finish the game would show that.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Compare Unova to the past region you will see that route between city are shorter and and don't require you go many through caves. Furthermore the fact that cut is the only HM required to finish the game would show that.

Okay, but why do that?

 

[Wulava]

Technicalities...

Technicalities....

It was really late at night and I was really tired when I was typing those. XD But you get my point.
You still backtrack through previous places you've been.

I was more disappointed by the small amount of cities (although the actual cities themselves made up for it).

Actually...

Unova has 10 cities pre-E4 (Anville not counted). Johto and Kanto both have 10 cities too.
Hoenn (Pacifidlog not counted) and Sinnoh have 14 cities before the League.

But it would've been great though if you had to go back and forth between cities just to add length to the game.

Compare Unova to the past region you will see that route between city are shorter and and don't require you go many through caves. Furthermore the fact that cut is the only HM required to finish the game would show that.

If the game takes place several years after the events of BW, it would be cool if natural disasters struck some of the places which greatly altered paths or possibly opened up new caves.

This provides possibilities of giving us more hindrances that would force us to use the HMs more. This adds length to the game as well.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

If the game takes place several years after the events of BW, it would be cool if natural disasters struck some of the places which greatly altered paths or possibly opened up new caves.

This provides possibilities of giving us more hindrances that would force us to use the HMs more. This adds length to the game as well.

Yeah, kind of like Kanto in GSCHGSS, except more so. GSCHGSS Kanto was actually too open, you had access to half of Kanto when you first got there and there was little sense of direction. They should also do what they did with Cinnibar Island and move gyms around (not necessarily nuke entire cities in the process, but close the old gyms for some reason and move them to new towns that you have to go off the beaten path to get to).

 

[Ansem1013]

If the game takes place several years after the events of BW, it would be cool if natural disasters struck some of the places which greatly altered paths or possibly opened up new caves.

This provides possibilities of giving us more hindrances that would force us to use the HMs more. This adds length to the game as well.

and these natural disasters could be explained with the genie trio

 

[JBiGGiE]

Yeah, kind of like Kanto in GSCHGSS, except more so. GSCHGSS Kanto was actually too open, you had access to half of Kanto when you first got there and there was little sense of direction. They should also do what they did with Cinnibar Island and move gyms around (not necessarily nuke entire cities in the process, but close the old gyms for some reason and move them to new towns that you have to go off the beaten path to get to).

I know it's not exactly BW2 related but now that we opened up the door to sequels would it not be awesome to see a Kanto based sequel to RBYGSC? I mean I'm no genwunner but I can just imagine the possibilities of a Kanto 10, maybe 15 years after Red and Blue.

Your idea of closing gyms and relocations made me think of it.

 

[Icy Meteor]

This provides possibilities of giving us more hindrances that would force us to use the HMs more. This adds length to the game as well.

I agree fully with this statement, I hardly used any HM Moves throughout playing the game, the one I probably used the most was Fly, but that was because of sheer laziness and I couldn't be bothered trekking through all the routes just to get back to certain towns. I really wanted to use Cut and Strength more.

This is slightly unrelated, but I really want to see more use of Dive, it was only used once during the game to access the Abyssal Ruins, which was only useful for finding old crap and selling them to some dodgy karate dude.

 

[Hydrohs]

There definitely needs to be more usage for the HMs, what's the point in giving them out-of-battle effects if you barely have to use them? They may as well have just had Surf and Fly.

 

[LexSuicune]

Meh, I never liked the HMs to begin with, I hate carrying an HM slave on my team.

 

[Hydrohs]

I like HMs because they add just a little bit more exploration to the game. As you're going through routes you can see small offshoots that you can't get to without the right HM, once you've got it you can go back to all those places and get the things you missed.

 

[Ira1219]

Gamefreak really needs to reveal some screen shots of the game. Usually screen shots of a main series game are revealed the day after the games are revealed. It's been exactly a month since these games have been revealed and we still have no gameplay.

 

[RinRinWIN]

I'm hoping for some returning features like battling gym leaders after you complete the main story and having a Pokemon follow you around, but what I really want is to access both Black City and White Forest.

Some other things I'd love to see: Enhancements to the Pokemon Dream World (actually being able to find your real life friends), more places to battle, tougher opponents, and making Entralink and C-Gear features that currently only accessible with a friend nearby to a friend over Wi-Fi.

I cannot wait to see what N is up to now!

 

[Grey Wind]

I honestly can't see what people would find enjoyable about having an extra tree to cut down, but to each their own I suppose. I really would like more Dive spots though, as those are actually interesting and underwater looks pretty cool. I was disappointed with the lack of diving in BW.

@Wulava: Forgot Kanto and Johto had so little, but after playing Hoenn and Sinnoh Unova felt tiny.

 

[Ansem1013]

though it's not an HM, I'd like for Headbutt to return to usefulness.

I've said it already, but I want Secret bases back too...

EDIT
Does anyone think they'll give us a new location(s) in place of Black City/White Forest that works in a similar manner? This would be hrrible imo, but I could see them doing it. I don't know what the overall fan reaction in Japan was to the two places...

 

[fasola91]

though it's not an HM, I'd like for Headbutt to return to usefulness.

I've said it already, but I want Secret bases back too...

EDIT
Does anyone think they'll give us a new location(s) in place of Black City/White Forest that works in a similar manner? This would be hrrible imo, but I could see them doing it. I don't know what the overall fan reaction in Japan was to the two places...

I would like to see that. Those areas were kinda pointless and unnecessary in my opinion. I would like to see more version differences though in towns and routes.

 

[KickAsh]

Meh, I never liked the HMs to begin with, I hate carrying an HM slave on my team.

I definitely agree, HM slaves were always worthless. The worst example of needing an HM to progress was needing Rock Climb to reach Red in HG/SS. I couldn't defeat Red with only 5 Pokemon and an HM slave, so I had to teach my Snorlax Rock Climb, which was useless outside of reaching Red.

I like HMs because they add just a little bit more exploration to the game. As you're going through routes you can see small offshoots that you can't get to without the right HM, once you've got it you can go back to all those places and get the things you missed.

But on the other hand, I also like doing this. Seeing that one tantalizing PokeBall containing an item, wondering what the item could be, and knowing you need to come back later with Surf/Cut/etc. is frustrating but also exciting. To me, it makes the region feel more realistic and organic.


So really, I can't make up my mind about HMs...I definitely want to see some more Dive spots though. I never really liked Diving until the Abyssal Ruins, which I thought were intriguing.

 

[Royal_Qeca]

Gamefreak really needs to reveal some screen shots of the game. Usually screen shots of a main series game are revealed the day after the games are revealed.

Hmm not really, when Pokemon BW was revealed we only had screen shots a month later.

 

[Ira1219]

Hmm not really, when Pokemon BW was revealed we only had screen shots a month later.

No coro coro revealed screen shots a day after Black and White were revealed