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Garchomp is Uber why not Salamence?

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J.T.

ಠ_ಠ
This is why I don't battle online. It's just not fun.

To you, maybe.

Like I said before, declaring Pokemon uber and banning them just reflects negatively on the skill of the person that creates the tiers. He or she can't handle that Pokemon (and maybe, just maybe, isn't that great at Pokemon to begin with), so it's uber and banned.

When you can take down an EV trained Arceus, Kyogre, Palkia, or whatever you have with a standard OU team, you can start talking crap like that. Ubers is for Pokemon that completely break the game. The Pokemon you need to build your entire team around if you want to have even a prayer of countering them. Arceus will ruin absolutely any OU team that isn't specifically made to take it down. Kyogre with Choice Scarf will sweep an entire team with Water Spout, end of story. Wobbuffet, even. It is flat-out impossible to counter it, because you can't switch. It is almost guaranteed to take down at least one opponent. All of them (save for Wobbuffet) limit your team's abilities and versatility, because unless you're thinking "can this team beat Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza/what-have-you", you will lose every time to them. Your skill doesn't mean **** when you're staring down an EV trained team that consists of Arceus, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Giratina, and Palkia.

You don't need to battle online with Smogon rules, but don't start *****ing when your entire team gets sodomized by Giratina or something.

People that follow those kinds of tiers only illustrate their level of skill as well. Lack of skill in the game is what it comes down to. That's not questioning. That's fact.

All right, I want you to show me an OU team that beats Arceus. No, I want you to come up with multiple teams that destroy Arceus. If you can, well, guess what? Those ones you come up with are the ONLY VIABLE TEAMS in a metagame with Ubers. If you don't run one of those Arceus-beating team, YOU WILL LOSE. There's no way around it.

How would you feel if SPPF suddenly banned the word, 'the'? That's how stupid it looks when those tiers ban Pokemon. That's the lack of skill those people display.

How in the seventh circle of hell does banning a commonly-used word of the English language compare to banning Pokemon that are uncounterable to keep the game fair and unique?

Solution: Get better at the game instead of whining and banning Pokemon that you can't handle.

Somehow I doubt you'd be complaining about the tiers if every team you ran into had 6 Arceus or 6 Rayquaza or whatever. Good luck beating teams like that.

Or: Make a team that works against said Pokemon. Isn't that the point of Pokemon? To figure out what works against who?

Here's the thing. NOTHING WORKS AGAINST MOST UBERS. That's why they're Uber. Now, let's assume you did have a team that could do that. Guess what? That is now the only viable team you can play to beat Arceus or whatever Uber you're worried about most. Guess what else? You are now vulnerable to every other Uber, and indeed even most OU Pokemon, because your team is entirely centralized on killing that Uber.

On a personal note though (unrelated to this), I really wish they never went online with this battling. Because nobody I personally know has ever *****ed and moaned about ubers when we used to play against one another offline. It used to be: I bring my team, they bring their team and we BATTLE! What's so complicated about that?

Yeah, it's so terrible that we're now able to battle the way we want without having to be two feet away from our opponents, just because we battle in a way that you don't like. And we all know there's a guy with a gun to your head forcing you to battle with Smogon's rules.

Now back on topic. Let's compare Salamence and Garchomp.

- Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Garchomp resists it. 1-0 Chomp.
- Salamence is crippled by Thunder Wave. Garchomp is immune to it. 2-0 Chomp.
- Salamence has base 100 Speed. Garchomp has 102 Speed, not only outspeeding Salamence, but putting it in a unique speed tier. 3-0 Chomp.
- Salamence has base 135 Attack. Garchomp has 130. 3-1 Chomp.
- Salamence gets hurt in sandstorm, which is common because of Tyranitar. Garchomp gets an evasion boost. 4-1 Chomp.
- Most Salamence sets are basically Dragon Dance, Outrage, Earthquake, and something like Brick Break or Fire Blast for additional coverage, maybe a few mixed sets or Specs sets (I haven't seen many of either on Shoddy lately). Garchomp is incredibly versatile, and you never know whether it's a YacheChomp, ChainChomp, ScarfChomp, or what-have-you. 5-1 Chomp.
- Salamence has base defenses of 95/80/80. Garchomp's are 108/95/85. 6-1 Chomp.

And a few subjective bonuses and such for both, such as Mence getting DD and Chomp getting SD. Basically, Garchomp wins, hands-down.
 

DarthVader

Well-Known Member
You know, I'm not sure if I should even take SBaby seriously.

Here are a few other points that other people haven't really commented on:

SBaby said:
Like I said before, declaring Pokemon uber and banning them just reflects negatively on the skill of the person that creates the tiers. He or she can't handle that Pokemon (and maybe, just maybe, isn't that great at Pokemon to begin with), so it's uber and banned. People that follow those kinds of tiers only illustrate their level of skill as well. Lack of skill in the game is what it comes down to. That's not questioning. That's fact.

You could say this in reference to Skarmbliss maybe, or maybe another example where it is only 1 or 2 people who have difficulty countering something. It becomes more dubious when the vast majority of gamers have difficulty "handling" a Pokemon; for instance whenever these "should Garchomp be banned" threads appear, almost everyone supports the affirmative. Are you going to say that the masterminds at Smogon, or the vast majority of Pokemon players on WiFi, lack skill, are lousy at Pokemon, or otherwise are trying to remove Garchomp just because they're not good enough to deal with it?

Why don't you suggest a counter then - which is something which can switch in safetly, and then either kill or wall Garchomp, or force it to switch out? Note that it must be able to switch in AND take into account that Garchomp may be holding a Yache berry.

Sbaby said:
On a personal note though (unrelated to this), I really wish they never went online with this battling. Because nobody I personally know has ever *****ed and moaned about ubers when we used to play against one another offline. It used to be: I bring my team, they bring their team and we BATTLE! What's so complicated about that?

Well, the "complication" is that people generally want fair and balanced matches. It's not "fun" when if you don't have Garchomp, plus 2 "counters," you lose the match. Or every single team you battle has a Garchomp. I'm guessing that the people in RL you battle don't know about EV Training, Yache berries, etc, or otherwise don't abuse the "imbalanced" Pokes.

Sbaby said:
Another unrelated note that I just thought of. I wonder if Satoshi Tajiri goes on message boards and online tiers and sees all the banned pokemon... I wonder what he thinks...

Lol, I'm sure that Satoshi is well aware that official tournaments, sponsored by Nintendo, also ban Pokemon. And it probably doesn't matter to him at all, as I'm guessing he realises (as to 90% of people who know anything about Pokemon), why certain Pokemon like Arceus are banned.
 

cakedup

Well-Known Member
Does anyone here have the numbers for Cresselia or Claydol using Ice Beam on Garchomp holding and also not holding a yache berry.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
Does anyone here have the numbers for Cresselia or Claydol using Ice Beam on Garchomp holding and also not holding a yache berry.

You'd have to search through Smogon's forums archives. Dougjustdoug posts an analysis of usage every month.

Cresselia is debatably the only Chomp counter, while holding a Choice Scarf. However, it is the only one, and hardly anyone uses Scarf on Cress.

Claydol is not even close to a Chomp counter.
 

disposable_heroes

<- Best PKMN Ever
Starmie couldn't counter it?

It's faster than Garchomp, can also CScarf if it wants to to stay faster than Garchomp, and zap it with Ice Beam. Sure, there's Yache Berry, but still...There's not much to stop Starmie from just roasting it again...Or deep-freezing it, wutever.

Or one could take the cheap route and explode on it if faster (Gengar) or more resilient (Snorlax) than it.

Were talking Smogon-defined counters. AKA Pokémon that can switch in comfortably to an attack. Starmie will definitely go down, Genger can still go down, and Snorlax, although it can take the hit with less than half HP remaining, cannot outspeed Garchomp when it counts the most.

This means Pokémon such as HP Ice Jolteon, Ice Punch Weavile, and Ice Fang Aero (it's still weak to Stone Edge) are not counters.

Like many people mentioned, Garchomp has many traits that make it harder to defeat that Salamence completely lacks. The only spot where Salamence beats Garchomp is in the Attack stat.

DO NOT EVEN TRY COMPARING GARCHOMP WITH SALAMENCE.

;445; =/= ;373;
;445; = Uber
 

BlueMew7

what up daddy in the house
DO NOT EVEN TRY COMPARING GARCHOMP WITH SALAMENCE.

Well technically you can compare them, but it's completely unreasonable according to the second quote below.

Now back on topic. Let's compare Salamence and Garchomp.

- Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Garchomp resists it. 1-0 Chomp.
- Salamence is crippled by Thunder Wave. Garchomp is immune to it. 2-0 Chomp.
- Salamence has base 100 Speed. Garchomp has 102 Speed, not only outspeeding Salamence, but putting it in a unique speed tier. 3-0 Chomp.
- Salamence has base 135 Attack. Garchomp has 130. 3-1 Chomp.
- Salamence gets hurt in sandstorm, which is common because of Tyranitar. Garchomp gets an evasion boost. 4-1 Chomp.
- Most Salamence sets are basically Dragon Dance, Outrage, Earthquake, and something like Brick Break or Fire Blast for additional coverage, maybe a few mixed sets or Specs sets (I haven't seen many of either on Shoddy lately). Garchomp is incredibly versatile, and you never know whether it's a YacheChomp, ChainChomp, ScarfChomp, or what-have-you. 5-1 Chomp.
- Salamence has base defenses of 95/80/80. Garchomp's are 108/95/85. 6-1 Chomp.

And a few subjective bonuses and such for both, such as Mence getting DD and Chomp getting SD. Basically, Garchomp wins, hands-down.

People, if THAT doesn't convince you that ;445; =/= ;373;, than I don't know what to tell you other than that you have some serious issues with reasoning with logic.
 

ComelyCleric~

Well-Known Member
I think that people do not understand the reason that Garchomp is Uber. In sand, with one sub up, no pokemon can stop it. Thanks to Sand Veil, it's evaisiveness is raised by 20% in sand, meaning that even if you had a pokemon on your team that was fast enough to stop it, it is not guaranteed to work. With a sub up, you are forced to sacrifice one of your pokemon just to break its sub, which will only work 20% of the time. Here is a standard scenario: Player 1 sends out Garchomp on Player 2's Forretress. Garchomp uses sub, forretress switches out. Player 2 sends in a frail counter such as Starmie to outrun the Chomp. Starmie uses Ice Beam, Garchomp uses Life Orb Outrage/Dragon Claw, KOing Starmie. Player 2 has just lost a pokemon for nothing, and will now have to switch in a scarfed pokemon or another Garchomp to outspeed and threaten Garchomp (though at best this would be a speed tie, of course, unless this Chomp is scarfed). If Forretress tries to stay in alternatively, and foolishly set up spikes or SR, chomp takes the time to SD and sub up on the switch. You see, Chomp, if played correctly with appropriate team support and adequate entry hazards to make its job easier (toxic spikes helps greatly with wall breaking, and SR for sashes) and Sandstorm support is incredibly broken. Guaranteed to tear through an opponent's team (again, assuming appropriate team support). 102 base speed is also a great number, allowing Scarfed Garchomp to revenge kill +1 Salamence with ease. In short, in sand Garchomp was a great pokemon. Salamence has nowhere near as much potential in sand, and has overall poorer defenses. Of course none of this is adding in the plain and obvious facts that Garchomp is immune to the common paralysis move, Thunder wave, and that Salamence takes 25% damage from switching into the most commonly seen entry hazard move in the metagame in Stealth Rock.
 
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Dahweenkster

Dah Weenster Baby!
I've read through a bit of this thread and to be honest, (this coming from a guy who has maybe played 20 serious battles in his life) the amount of fail on the side of *Banning is wrong* is tremendous.

Guys and girls, you use the term ban like they completely remove the pokemon from competitive play. and thats not what is happening. These "tiers" are basically the same as tiers of boxing and such with NU being lightweights, UU being middleweight, OU being heavy weight, and Uber being Super heavy weight...that being said you will NEVER see a Super heavy weight fighter fighting in a light weight rank match. The only thing different is that NU pokemon can be used in Uber...if you want to play a match with any pokemon you want, play in the Uber tier thats how that works, and if you just go in with NU/UU/OU pokemons you WILL GET STOMPED its not because people can't beat the Garchomp with their Pikachu's its simply that the pokemon are designed with better stat allocations and thus are in a different tier of awesomness lol...

Hope I helped or...made it worse...hell idk you just can't reason with some people....
 

RLinksoul

Well-Known Member
I'd be nice if the Battle Tower wi-fi room worked in Tiers. Even with a strong legend like Latias, the Garchomp that will inevitably appear within two matches flattens me less than two hits being dealt to it.
 

DarthVader

Well-Known Member
I'd be nice if the Battle Tower wi-fi room worked in Tiers. Even with a strong legend like Latias, the Garchomp that will inevitably appear within two matches flattens me less than two hits being dealt to it.

I don't wish that; I like to be able to use a Garchomp there.

What I would really appreciate though, would be if "Hax Items" aren't allowed - I'm pretty sure my opponents "focus band" activates each time the opposing Pokemon is holding one!
 

marty

{VR}Trojan
i think the reason why garchomp is uber cause while i was battling one in the frontier i got beaten by it by using one outrage.not just like salamence.i survived em
 

Kindrindra

大事なのは自分らしいくある事
I don't wish that; I like to be able to use a Garchomp there.

You'd still be able to use it. But you would only be allowed to use it in the same arena as Legends. In fact, teirs in the battle tower would be interesting... would mean we could use pokemon like Bueatyfly without having to worrying about a more powerful pokemon showing up.

What I would really appreciate though, would be if "Hax Items" aren't allowed - I'm pretty sure my opponents "focus band" activates each time the opposing Pokemon is holding one!

Me thinks you're thinking of a 'Focus Scarf'. Like the Focus Band, but always activates. Only catch is that it doesn't work if you didn't have Full HP before the KOing attack. Basically, it guaranties the holding pokemon will survive at least one turn. Or, in even simpler terms, it means the pokemon cannot be OHKOed. 2HKO works, 3HKO works... ect.

Of course, it could just be a Focus Band. Nintendo has even admitted that the chances of luck-induced affects appearing are greater in the battle tower (Explaining why Grasswhistle almost always works... And don't even get me started about guillotine...!).

Bolded comments.
 

I like Pikachu

Well-Known Member
Garchomp is uber while Salamence isn't because:

1. Not weak to Rock types
2. Not weak to stealth Rock
3. Better stats
4. Better movepool
5. Higher Defenses
6. Only has 2 weaknesses. Salamence has 3.
 
Garchomp is Uuber because the majority of smogon suspect test voters voted it uuber. Why is this even being discussed? It's not like Nintendo voted it Uuber, (they did not).
 

Luxe

Stranded MeisterIsle
But when people (like Sbaby) talk about things like Sbaby does when Sbaby says that people that agree with Garchomp being Uber dont have the skill to beat it, I dont think they understand that this is not the anime. We cant go off on adventures with electric mice when we're 10 years old because we woke up late and missed all the rare pokemon. And we most certainly cannot train those electric mice until they are the most powerful beings on earth and can take down every pokemon they encounter just because we treat them with love. Sure, pokemon less powerful than Garchomp can be used effectively, and its true that there are UU and NU pokemon that can be used well with careful planning in OU and (if we really stress it) Uber battle environments. But the fact is, some things dont work.
 

swampertlover5712

True Love Never Dies
it's cool because it has good moves.
cool appearance (long scythes as arms? awesome)
it's fast.
its powerful
its to not be messed with.
 

Pokefan0234

Ka-Ra-Tay!
Garchomp has a bit more wider movepool and has an immunity to Stealth Rock. 'Sides, if it were on a Sandstorm Team in the OU Tier, (like I'm sure it once was), then it would kill.

With the Uber Tier, you have Pokemon like Groundon and Kyogre to even things out, a handful of Pokemon ready to face strong Dragon-types, and far less use for a Stealth Rock immunity.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
If you don't run one of those Arceus-beating team, YOU WILL LOSE. There's no way around it.

So, use one of those specialized teams and put the guy in their place. There's freaking guides on how to do it. Then go back to your preferred team.



Somehow I doubt you'd be complaining about the tiers if every team you ran into had 6 Arceus or 6 Rayquaza or whatever. Good luck beating teams like that.

No, because I've never run into a setup like that. Most people have 1 Arceus and 1 Rayquaza. It's just idiotic to get more than that (not to mention that makes you 100 times more likely to be suspected of hacking anyway). But you're just bringing up isolated incidents to validate your argument anyway, so moot point. As I said, just have an anti-Arceus or anti-Rayquaza team in place for dealing with those people instead of whining about Pokemon that you can't handle. Chances are if they have 6 of either, then that's probably the only setup they ever use.


Here's the thing. NOTHING WORKS AGAINST MOST UBERS. That's why they're Uber. Now, let's assume you did have a team that could do that. Guess what? That is now the only viable team you can play to beat Arceus or whatever Uber you're worried about most. Guess what else? You are now vulnerable to every other Uber, and indeed even most OU Pokemon, because your team is entirely centralized on killing that Uber.

Translation: I can't handle it so it should be banned.


Yeah, it's so terrible that we're now able to battle the way we want without having to be two feet away from our opponents, just because we battle in a way that you don't like.

And you couldn't before? Remember Street Fighter II?


All right, I want you to show me an OU team that beats Arceus. No, I want you to come up with multiple teams that destroy Arceus.

When you can take down an EV trained Arceus, Kyogre, Palkia, or whatever you have with a standard OU team, you can start talking crap like that. Ubers is for Pokemon that completely break the game. The Pokemon you need to build your entire team around if you want to have even a prayer of countering them. Arceus will ruin absolutely any OU team that isn't specifically made to take it down. Kyogre with Choice Scarf will sweep an entire team with Water Spout, end of story. Wobbuffet, even. It is flat-out impossible to counter it, because you can't switch. It is almost guaranteed to take down at least one opponent. All of them (save for Wobbuffet) limit your team's abilities and versatility, because unless you're thinking "can this team beat Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza/what-have-you", you will lose every time to them. Your skill doesn't mean **** when you're staring down an EV trained team that consists of Arceus, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Giratina, and Palkia.

You don't need to battle online with Smogon rules, but don't start *****ing when your entire team gets sodomized by Giratina or something.

It's sad just how much people have analyzed and over-analyzed these games to the point where they're willing to crank out hundreds upon hundreds of hours EV training their Pokemon... only for another game to come out that forces them to do the same thing over again. Really, these games aren't the pinnacle of console gaming. That is why I don't really waste my time with EV training and getting perfect setups. It's boring! The games are fun for me to play casually, but I've really got better things to do than waste that much of my time perfecting stats so I can handle the elitists in multiplayer battles.
 
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Kindrindra

大事なのは自分らしいくある事
No such thing as a "Focus Scarf." There's the Focus Band, which can work multiple times, but only has a chance of activating, and the Focus Sash, which only works once, but is guaranteed to work.

Oops... I meant to say Focus Sash. ;^_^
 
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