Gary Stus and Mary Sues

[Ledian_X]

I've been thinking about what people have said about my story and in private conversations about the concept of Mary Sue/Gary Stu and how it applies to my and others' creations in my universe. As you know, Nylf, Power Shot, La Carlotta, whit and I made a fanfic universe and some people have asked me "LX? Are these people Mary Sues/Gary Stus?"

So, I decided to set people straight and I'll entertain questions at the end. But, the basics of it is that you can have a lot of superpowers and not be a Gary-Stu/Mary-Sue. Although, there is a character in comics that has the traditional definition of a Mary-Sue. That would be X-23. You might know her from X-Men: Evolution. She recently became involved in the regular Marvel Universe and is everywhere.

But, by and large by the sheer definition of Mary/Gary Stus, half the Marvel Universe created in the 1960s would be them. However, throughout the years, they've grown to have more depth and be more defined. Same applies to Superman, who has gotten actually less powers as time went on.

Let me give you an example of how there isn't a comic character really that has the characteristics of a Gary-Stu. You see, it's all about character development. You can have characters with cosmic powers like the Silver Surfer and have him not be a Gary Stu. He's very well developed and is a product of the Silver Age of Comics.

The term itself is very vague because I know a lot of comic characters that fit the description of a Gary Stu. I saw it on Wikipedia and they're still great characters despite having a lot of powers. They're still human and flawed. So, you can have a lot of powers and still make a great character. It's really in the execution and development. Superpowers don't make the character. Characters make the character.

Sometimes people even need to suspend disbelief because it's not really fair to say that just because a character has a lot of powers and skills that he/she is a Mary/Gary. I don't really know how it works in pokemon fiction but it really doesn't apply to what me and the others are doing. Because by the definition of the term, a lot of good comic book characters from the Fantastic Four down would be considered that.

But, everyone has heart, has problems/issues etc. You see Spidey going into battle with a cold, FF fight amongst themselves, Iron Man as a fallen down drunk, Giant Man was a wife beater, Firestar was afraid of her powers etc. They're all human despite their fantastic powers.

Even the cosmic ones have chips on their shoulder. Captain Marvel went insane, Silver Surfer obessed over the loss of his world and more. The Gods even went crazy at one put. Hercules was beaten into a coma and Thor's had to deal with his insane brother, Loki.

On the DC side: Batman had a tragic childhood, has slightly greater than average abilities, and yet he's one of the most time-honored heroes, ever. Same applies to Robin, Nightwing, Huntress. Superman was brought down to Earth and had to adjust to being human. There's more but I don't read DC comics.

I think I covered everything but if you guys'd like, I'd like people to ask me questions about comic heroes and Gary/Maryness. Only one comic character now that comes to mind as being like that is really X-23. She's everywhere and really isn't a developed character. She's a clone of Wolverine and that's basically it.

LX

 

[Negrek]

*copies*

*pastes*

The problem with defining what 'Mary Sue' means is that there are a lot of different ways for a character to be a Mary Sue. Mary-Sueism has more to do with an author's attitude towards her character than some checklist of Mary Sue traits. A Mary Sue is the author's pet, who's doted upon to the detriment of the story and the other characters.

Mary Sue cannot be upstaged.

I think that the best definition of Mary Sue - which doesn't work all the time, but works better than any of the others I've heard - is this: A Mary Sue is like a black hole that warps the fabric of the story, pulling everything into her orbit. Everyone either loves her or treats her cruelly, whether or not it's in character for them to even care. She gets away with things no one else would get away with. And so on.

Or another definition: If you put Mary Sue on one end of a see-saw, and the rest of the story on characters on the other, Mary Sue would be heavier. She's out of balance for her story - she's too much of something. She's too powerful, she's too tragic, she's too brave, she's too smart, she's too loved or too hated ...

Things that often get an original character labeled as a Mary Sue, like resemblance to an author, a floofy name, or special powers, aren't what makes a Mary Sue. It just happens that a lot of Mary Sue authors use 'special' traits to make their character seem cool, and resemblance to themselves as a way to get a little more vicarious wish-fulfillment.

If you put a piece of yourself into many characters does that make them all Mary-Sues

I've never heard this definition, even as fuzzy as the definition of Mary Sue is. Most fiction writers put a little bit of themselves into their characters, but they definitely aren't all Mary Sues.

is a Mary-Sue someone you base completely off yourself?

I don't think so. I would call that type of character a self-insert. Self-inserts are USUALLY Mary Sues in my experience, but I have seen them done occasionally without being Mary Sues. It's all a matter of balance.

Comic characters are no more immune or susceptible to being Sues/Stus. It has nothing to do with their powers or their personality traits, but the ways in which they twist the story around themselves.

 

[Ledian_X]

I know. I guess I didn't word it correctly. I explained that in comics there are some Mary Sues like Wolverine's clone X-23. I guess I wasn't too clear on that and I apologize. You're right in saying that they can be it. But, there's a difference, really.

X-23's creator twisted a whole 3 part story in Uncanny X-Men about her and had her join the new mutants in New X-Men: Academy X. So, by that definition you posted, she's a Mary Sue. A lot of fans despise her because she's really a Wolverine clone. Right down to the "I can't remember my past!"

Of course thanks to the House of M, Wolvie gets all his memories back. Layla Miller, the girl who resotred the Marvel heroes memories of what the world should be so they could fight Magneto is another Mary Sue. She's a little girl mutant who appeared out of nowhere and zapped peoples' memories back. Wolverine though remembered beforehand.

But, by in large some people thought having too many superpowers made them Mary/Garys. That's why I made the post because it's not the case. Thanks for backing me up on that point. Just because someone has a lot of powers, it doesn't make them a Gary/Mary. Not everything revolves around Silver Surfer. Sure he had a title. Same with Captain Marvel but still. There's a fine line between overpowering and Mary Sueism.

A lot of characters have lots of powers and are still good. Superman's been reqritten to the point that yes he has a lot of powers but his weaknesses make up for it,

LX

 

[Eternal Daydreamer]

*slaps forehead* I believe I started this. Dude, I was talking about the Sky High fandom. The overpowering there is way too much. Say for instance someone created a character with these powers: (this isn't a Sue created, YET. Just humor me.)
Pyrotecknesis
Flight
Ability to control chi
Ability to understand animals
Ability to breathe underwater

In the Sky High universe, this is a classic Sue. I have tried to tell you this, read a couple fanfics in this fandom, you'll see what I'm talking about. Sues may be "perfect" and most of the time, everyone loves them or everbody hates them. Ledian, you do know more about superheroes than I ever will, but you take things *too* seriously.

I can see you thinking it's a thorn in your side if some people hate overpowered superheroes. It's natural and I do know what you talk to me about, but lighten up. It would be great if this thread was to be dedicated to how not to write a Sue but...

It seems to a be rant aimed at me and all the people in the Sky High fandom. Either I'm misreading this, which I'm probably doing, or you took it too seriously when I discussed this issue with you.

To be fair, I'll delete this post and apoligize to you if I misread this. You can't really tell and it's too soon to be coincidence that this wasn't spawned from our conversation last night.

 

[Ledian_X]

Well, like I said last night, it wasn't adressed to you. But, I would like to say something though to everyone else. You heard it last night, Carlotta when you told me about the Sky high fandom and how they write their heroes and what their rules were. This'll be about that so be forewarned.

I'm just trying to educate people about comic book writing so there's no harm and no foul. I'm doing this because some people out there don't seem to understand my story and I'm trying to help them figure things out.

Now then, I'm not going to say comic book superheroes aren't capable of being Garys/Marys because there have been a couple. But, it doesn't meet the critera the fandom of Sky High put in. She's called X-23 and she's a horrid clone of Wolverine with the same powers and attitude. Only thing is that she's a girl. Mary Sue? You betcha. Result of bad management? Hell ya!

What kind of annoyed me was that the Sky High fandom pretty much said that anyone with a lot of superpowers, having good looks, being an alien, having a boyfriend/girlfriend makes a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in their eyes. That sort of thinking just makes me ill because there are tons of great characters with lots of powers like Superman. By their reasoning, the entire Marvel Universe would be considered Mary/Gary just because they have a lot of superpowers. Also, because they are/had relations with aliens, married etc. To me, that's not very fair.

They're humanized. Peter Parker married Mary Jane and she knows he's Spider-Man. Scott Summers married Jean Grey, Reed Richards (Mr. Fantastic) married Susan Storm (Invisible Woman) and now they have two kids, who as shown grow up to be mutant heroes. People get married and that's what happens in real life. The characters are realistic and in reality people have kids and do these kinds of things.

Granted, Superman, Phoenix (Jean Grey), Silver Surfer and others would be considered that. But, it isnt a bad thing as it allows for character development along other lines and those three are time honored classics because trust me with all their power, they're very deep characters. Silver Surfer philosophizes, Jean's a powerful telepath and is a linchpin in the X-Men, Superman for all he's worth tries to be human despite being the last Kryptonian and that weighs heavily on his heart.

So, according to the fandom people like Spidey would be viewed as too powerul. He's the everyman in tights. Yes he has enhanced agility, superstrength (He can press up to 10 tons and that's not that strong considering Thor could press 100 tons), spider sense, wall crawling and webbing. I see that as complete bs because it's not the power that makes the hero. The character and how he/she is written do.

In comics, you are dealing with aggrandized verisons of people with tragic
backgrounds, strange powers etc who (usually) are good looking, supremely athletic and often amazingly intelligent. Why? because those charactoes are more interesting that way and allows for greater use of literary devices. They can be humanized and still be great characters that feel pain and go through hardships.

You take that all away and you basically get Archie and Jughead. The comics medium is a lot deeper than some people think and all I am trying to do is help some people see that so they can get a better feel of my story. My friend has told me this:

Part of the great joy of reading (be it comics, *****,fiction or even good non-fiction) is that it tells a story that transports the reader to another time/place with a cast of characters who are indentifiable to the
reader. I have always argued that all reading is an escapist fantasy regardless of genre. This isnt necessarily a horrible thing. It simply recognizes
that most people read to mentally go someplace else or do something else or be someone else.

So, all I can say is that the fandom really should look into the source material and not deal with just the movie because there's more under the mask than people think.

LX

 

[HB5squared]

I don't see such the big arguement over Gary-stus/Mary sues being boring. If you think they are than don't read that certain fic. If you are here on these forums, that must mean you have some connection to the Gary-stu Ash, who always wins (except in the tournaments) and luck always goes his way, with his pokemon evolving just in time or learning a new attack. That is how you got here, you've either read the ***** series, which are also all gary/marys or have probably watched and liked the show enough that you bought the games or signed up for this site.

How come no one on this site doesn't believe that people want to connect with someone they can relate to? Everyone says that they want to read a fic with characters that they can identify with, but that would mean making a character that another doesn't identify with. We are all unique and have individual flaws, some people do look beautiful and are preppy and cool and some people are the cliche dumb blond/loser nerd. When a reviewer sees that the person is beautiful and gets his/her way than they immedietly type Gary-stu/Mary-sue. Or if they see that they are so powerful they immediatly type Gary/Mary stu/sue, that only tells the other readers/reviewers one thing... that that reviewer isn't beautiful or is a weakling and doesn't like power.

My main point is everyone likes different characters and we are all tied to this site but one of the biggest Gary-stus. So, it boils down to imagination. If the writer wants their character to consistently win or to be strong or beautiful yes it is boring but it doesn't make them Gary-Stu. I actually love when I win and do the best, which most of the time I do. So am I a Mary-sue?

 

[Act]

How come no one on this site doesn't believe that people want to connect with someone they can relate to?

Because it's just not true. I'm not sure who started this notion, but look at any book, famous or infamous, now or ever. Can you relate to the Jungle Books? To the Da Vinco Code? Go Ask Alice? Lord of the Rings? Pride and Prejudice? Harry Potter?

No. But they're *interesting*. We get a glimpse of something we can't hope to have, and are intrigued by it. To hell if I feel like I can 'identify' with a character. Never in all my reading have I thought about that. All of which leads me into this...

If the writer wants their character to consistently win or to be strong or beautiful yes it is boring but it doesn't make them Gary-Stu.

Give me one reason why writing a horrifically boring and poorly plotted story is a good thing. Nothin' more to say 'bout that.

And, as Negrek said above, it isn't the characteristics of a person that make them a Sue-Stu. It's the way the fic warps around them, allowing for them to do whatever necessary. Which is also boring.

I actually love when I win and do the best, which most of the time I do. So am I a Mary-sue?

That stank pungently of conceit, and I had to point it out. I also feel obliged to point out that you are not a fictional character. And if you're that much of a gloating perfectionist, I can't see you with too many friends anywy ;; So it actually works in life, too: No one likes someone who has to make everything about them and how great they are.

My main point is everyone likes different characters and we are all tied to this site but one of the biggest Gary-stus.

Also not true. I don't watch the show, but I am an avid player of the games. You know, the first canon?

 

[Keleri]

What Negrek said, basically. Another criterion that could be argued is that the Sue has to be annoying to read about to really condemn the story (but in that same vein, not all annoying characters are Sues). There are a few published works I can think of (Tamora Pierce, though she's gotten better, and Anne McCaffrey to some extent) that have Sues of varying degrees as the main character. While they're not, by any means, paragons of literary achievement, they're still anywhere from not bad to mildly entertaining reads.

So, I'm not saying that it's a good idea to go and write a blatent Sue and try to claim that it's "allowed"--it's still bad writing, and the only way to fix the character is to change your attitude towards them. I'm saying that it is possible to get away with having a Sueish character, but you better be writing a damn good story to distract me from this fact.

By the way, Ledian--it's cool that your knowledge of Marvel comics is encyclopedic, but all of your paragraphs and paragraphs about them don't mean much to me; I used to watch the X-men cartoon so I know who everyone is, but that's about it. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I would hypothesize that, given that this is a pokémon board, there aren't that many people who know what you're talking about either. It's always best to talk about what you know (and clearly you know a lot about Marvel), but it might be nice if you put your thoughts into terms that everybody here will understand.

 

[The Great Butler]

Eh. I don't feel strongly one way or the other towards them. All I know is, I'm going to do something with Enigma Shadow in the next chapter that *could* make Rich a Gary-Stu.....if I abused it. Which I don't plan to do.

 

[Eternal Daydreamer]

So am I a Mary-sue?

If you wear the color blue, have red/brown/blonde hair, and chew gum, you could be Violet Bearegard's double! Wow, it's amazing how many "Violets" you can find on a board, -.-; [/SARCASM]

Squared, please, people don't need to identify with a character to like a story. For instance, Sarai (an old hag) is a favorite in my story. Does that mean everyone who reads my fic are hags? No. Well, Squared, I don't see why you think this. Sure it's nice to find a story where you can connect but it's not nescary, Miss Bearegard.

Ledian,I don't understand you. Not at all. *sigh* Try and keep it simple? I could amaze YOU with some knowledge I posses of various fandoms. You would get lost, so try and not use Marvel so much? Kay?

Alright, I said my piece before. If anyone get's offended I'll get on my hands and beg for your forgiveness. I'm not THAT cruel. *slinks off*

 

[Ledian_X]

The reason I used comics like Marvel in my example is because that is what I know best. I would love to say I write pokemon stories but I don't. Sorry. I tried once and I didn't like how it ended up. It became too comicish and well it didn't fit when the main character became feared and hated you know. Because he became a mutant.

Don't be so quick to dismiss HBSquared. He/she has a valid point. Creating a character everyone can relate to is a good idea and is a hallmark of a great writer. People can relate to all kinds of fictional characters. If you CAN'T connect on SOME level, you won't read. No one reads Frankenstein because it's about a monster. People read it because it's the story of an outcast and some people feel like outcasrs.

Some people here do read comics like Power Shot, Big Al, Dani and Nylf. This thread was created bewcause someone mentioned to me that my superhero characters were Mary sue ish and I felt compelled to come set the record straight. He said that they seemed to have too much power and pretty much everything the Sky high fandom said. So, I decided to post and help inform people. Sorry I used comics as an example because that is what I know. I posted the story here because someone said it was a good idea.

Keleri, having a lot of powers does not a Mary Sue make. That's what I've been trying to get at because someone said that all of Spider-Man's poers would be considered Mary-Sueish. Yes, I'm using Spidey. Would you rather I use Superman? Anyway, despite his powers, Peter Parker/Spider-Man is an excellent character. Yes that depends on who is writing him but all of Spidey's writers agree on the mould set by Stan Lee, his creator.

Spider-Man and the rest of Marvel's pantheon are by and large everymen. They can be the girl next door or the guy you sit next to on the bus. They have real issues, drama and personal tragedy. In fact, personal tragedy drives most of the Marvel heroes. Would that make them Mary Sues?

Peter Parker was driven by the death of Uncle Ben to become Spider-Man. We kind of saw what happened to him if Uncle Ben had lived in a "What if " story. Peter became an entertainer and didn't fight crime as much. In fact, Gwen Stacy didn't even die. No tragedy happened and that made the webslinger very dull. Most of the Marvels have that tragic past and that's what makes them compelling. People in my line of work want stories with drama and characters like Parker they can relate to.

Mutants on the other hand are born with their powers. They've had tragic pasts from the get-go. I could go into details but the point of all this is that heroes with tragic pasts make them human. You say it doesn't work but it's been working since 1961. Someone must be doing something right. Just remember that it's not the power that makes a character. It's the personality, the human equation, the drive and more.

The fandom of Sky High's definition was very short-sighted because in their view, there would be no Marvel Universe, DC, Image or any other comic book hero. You can't limit a character just to make things even. That's not how life works, and writing is a reflection of life. Some characters have tragic pasts, some have massive powers, it's all about how they're used. No character in comicdom is flawless, and THAT is what makes them great. No matter HOW powerful...there's something believable about them.

Just remember, for evey Superman there's kryptonite.

Now then, yes there are some characters that are Mary Sueish. No disputing that. Like I said, X-23 is a Mary Sue but it's not because she has a lot of powers. She's a Mary Sue because she's everywhere and basically has Wolverine's whole gimmick. Same powers, was mind-controlled, was forced to kill her mother. She's used in more places than more established and well-known characters despite not having anything REALLY unique to offer. Now that's a Mary Sue.

In closing, I'm sorry I mention comics but that's what I know. I know only the pokemon games. I tried doing a pokemon fic and it didn't work our. Sorry that the post is long but there's nothing I can do about that. There's a lot of info to give out. Sometimes people have to read.

LX

 

[Act]

In closing, I'm sorry I mention comics but that's what I know. I know only the pokemon games. I tried doing a pokemon fic and it didn't work our. Sorry that the post is long but there's nothing I can do about that. There's a lot of info to give out. Sometimes people have to read.

You could easily make your point with one sentence, hun. But instead you ramble and are long-winded and don't make sense. Let me see if I understand by writing that sentence for you:

Having superpowers doesn't make someone a Sue; there are many famous characters with superpowers that are perfectly good characters.

 

[Ledian_X]

If I did that, people would say I was too vauge. So, I provided examples. There are people I have showed this thread to and they have said I make perfect sense. I tend to make long posts and chapters. Just read. It's not going to kill you. ANd it will help people understand where I'm coming from. That was the short version, Act but it dind't have one thing "A lot". Having a lot of superpowers doesn't make someone a Stu and I was trying to help people see that.

LX

 

[MondoTR]

Some people here do read comics like Power Shot, Big Al, Dani, and Nylf.

I told you I never read a comic. I just happen to know a lot about them.

But yeah, mutants/metahumans/superheroes/whatevers with a lot of powers aren't automatically Sues/Stus. Though they could turn out that way, depending on how the writer depicts them.

 

[Act]

If I did that, people would say I was too vauge.

Better than too wordy, IMO. It's easier to defend your opinon when you have a clear opinion. So far all you've been doing is repeating ten paragraphs over and over and over...

Just read. It's not going to kill you.

I could throw this right back at you, but I'm finding this really amusing, so I won't.

ANd it will help people understand where I'm coming from.

Actually, I only get more confused with each multi-page installment. You ramble. It's not clarifying.

That was the short version, Act but it dind't have one thing "A lot".

Don't know what that means, sorry.

Having a lot of superpowers doesn't make someone a Stu and I was trying to help people see that.

Correct me if I'm wrong and all, but couldn't you just haved typed this in the first place and defended yourself as the rebuttles came up? IMO, you wouldn't have many people disagree with that. If you really feel the need to lecture us on the life and times of Marvel not-sues, why don't you romp over to livejournal's fanficrants community? There's actual places for essays like that.

ANd like Keleri said, you can talk about Marvel as much as you want, but chances are that on a Pokemon forum, it's going to go in one ear and out the other of most readers. Why not just make a point without all the blah-blah-blah?

*shrug*

 

[HB5squared]

Ok, well let me just add in this point.

Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu- A character which the whole story ties around having everything in their favour. They have no flaws and can not be beaten. Everything in the story goes their way, no matter how unfit it might be.

Does that look like the proper definition? If so than some reviewers just aren't getting that and are bein completely ignorant. Some reviewers think that if the character is too strong or too determined or too beautiful, than they are Gary/Mary, which I believe reflects on them to be the opposite, ugly, weak, etc... Just because they are beautiful or strong does NOT make them a Gary/Mary but if the story always goes their way no matter what, than they are a Gary/Mary.

LedianX and Act I think this thread could be used for good, Ledian stop trying to provide examples on X-men and other superheroes for everything you say. Act stop telling people how to say things, if you'd like him to reword some things perhaps you should send him a PM, this thread isn't called "grammatical corrections done by Act" Stick to the topic please.

Perhaps each of you could provide your own definition on MAry/Garys that ought to be helpful in creating one usefull defintion to be placed as a sticky.

 

[MondoTR]

Act, Chris meant you left out the words "a lot". In otherwords it should have been like this:

Having a lot of superpowers doesn't make someone a Sue; there are many famous characters with a lot of superpowers that are perfectly good characters.

HB, Chris kept mentioning X-Men and such because he was referring to superhero Stus/Sues, not Stus/Sues in general.

 

[Ledian_X]

Again, I'm sorry I mentioned X-Men and co. But, it's what I know amd this topic was about superhero Stus/Sues only. Not anything else. That's why I mentioned them because someone was asking me if my superpowered people in the story were Sues/Stus. So, I decided to post using comic fic references because this is what it was about. Comic based stus/sues. Also, there are other non pokemon fics here so I didn't see a problem posting this here.

I know it's a pokemon board. If I didn't, Joe's been lying to me for a real long tme and had me admin his own personal playground. Now that just sounded dirty, didn't it? Perhaps I should have reworded it but, it's okay. I used the examples because that's what this topic was about. Perhaps I'll change the title of the topic? Sorry if I confused people but I was asked a question and I wanted to answer it.

Now than that's out of the way, my definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is someone who is everywhere where she isn't needed. He or she just shows up, steals the show and has someone who was around longer's whole gimmick. Person has nothing unique to offer and is just there because the author makes him/her their own private pet.

Characters with no flaws are considered stus. But, in stories I've read, characters with a lot of gifts aren't Stus/Sues. It's all really in the execution. It's all on the writer how they use the gifts. For example, if I have a character with superspeed, I be careful not to have him/her run through walls or create whirlwinds with his/her arms. That's the Flash's schitck and borderline ripping off. But, that's another issue.

Questions? Sorry I used a comic example. But hey, it's what I know.

LX

Edit: Thanks Dani. Was in a rush when I posted.

 

[Negrek]

Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu- A character which the whole story ties around having everything in their favour. They have no flaws and can not be beaten. Everything in the story goes their way, no matter how unfit it might be.

Does that look like the proper definition?

In some ways, yes. In some ways, no. I've already posted my definition of a Sue, but in looking at this one, there are some things that I agree with and some things that I don't. In essence, this is an extremist's definition. Only in the most poorly written pieces would you run into such a situation. It is very, very possible to have a Sue without either of those absolutes, but yes, if you did have those traits, your character would be a Sue.

To reiterate, a Sue is a character who warps all the story and characters so that they center around her. Events and relationships are dragged mercilessly out of proportion in response to her presence. In essence, she turns the plot into a lame excuse to show herself off.

 

[Act]

Act stop telling people how to say things, if you'd like him to reword some things perhaps you should send him a PM, this thread isn't called "grammatical corrections done by Act" Stick to the topic please.

Rawr much? I wasn't making grammatical corrections (definition check there, hun). I was telling Ledian I was confused by how she was explaining things. I'm relatively sure that pertains to the topic.
*coughgominimodsomewhereelsecough*

Anyway, I get what you're saying now... like I said, it was a tad unclear. And like Negrek said, there isn't a quality a character has that makes them a Sue-- it's the way a fic wraps itself around them, which I'm fairly sure is what you said. So we agree. Yay!

Umm... I had a point somewhere, but I forget what it is... ;.;

EDIT:

Right! Okay. If someone is telling you that about a fic that hasn't been really posted yet, isn't that a tad hasty? ;;