Gen 8 Freedom of Travel Discussion Thread (Sinnoh + Breath of the WIld Mechanics)

[Cerex]

People really aren't thinking that creatively when it comes to the freedom of travel concept. Remember, from the perspective of the player within the game itself they have freedom of travel, it only as you play the game that the developers introduce hurdles to block your passage until certain segments are completed. It would be one thing if within the story of any game there was a specific linear format that you ought to follow, for example gyms you needed to complete in a certain sequential order. However, even in Gen 1 they introduced the idea that the order in which your encounter towns doesn't have to be order in which you unfold the game's story.

You could have an immersive story in a game with freedom of travel where the plot unfolds with you triggering certain events in specific locations, with beyond that the player is free to explore the world. In a lot of ways mirroring some aspects of Gen 1. Remember, the goal of the game was to defeat all eight badges, we really only stumbled into the Team Rocket in Mt. Moon and then with the break in Cerulean City, and then we had a few other small events. Besides preventing us from Battling Sabrina and having the 8th gym closed at the start of the game, the entire Team Rocket saga was essentially just a side story to the main plot, after you defeated Giovanni and got the Master Ball you probably thought you were done with them, only to be pleasantly surprised that he was also the 8th and final gym leader. You could have a game where you are in an open region where you encounter seemingly independent events that overtime you piece together as being part of some larger nefarious plot by whatever evil organization is in the new region. Nothing requiring the player to specifically follow a certain path to get around the world. Especially for a game where certain Pokemon are usually confined to specifically certain sections of the map, forcing players to have to wait to get access to them is annoying and unnecessary.

The only thing the developers would have to sort out is the leveling system; however, I don't think it needs to be complicated. The game already is making leveling less and less important. In Gen IV Heart Scales were essentially unlimited and players could teach Pokemon any more, even if they weren't at the level they would normally learn it. They made farming EXP a little harder to do, but still not that difficult.

I think we can move to a system where rather than your individual Pokemon being the ones that level up it is the trainer specifically that levels up as you progress. Pokemon would learn moves as you gain EXP and your bond with them increases, and they would evolve when they reach a certain bond with you. Trainer classes could be leveled pegged to your trainer level, so that there is always a variety and challenge, with Aces or Veterans being maybe a level or two higher, and youngsters a bit below. I think Gym Battles should be treated like the Battle Tower, so that it is about strategy not levels that determine the outcome.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I really don't want levels to scale like that, it completely removes any kind of challenge the game can have for older players and makes battles trivial. If you're equally levelled to the opponent battles are trivial because the AI is just not nearly as competent as actual players are. There's a reason why you need dozens of wins in a row against randomly chosen opponents in the Battle Tree, to give it a degree of challenge. Winning individual battles is trivial, winning dozens of battles in a row introduces some sense of difficulty as sooner or later you'll run into battles where the dice aren't rolling in your favour and/or the opponent has a match-up advantage against you. In the current system I can challenge myself by opting to stay underlevelled. In Ultra Sun I was around level 22 at Olivia, level 45 when I fought Ultra Necrozma, I was around level 50 at the League. With level scaling that challenge is gone because 8-year-olds also have to be able to do it.

 

[Sαpphire]

But there's also no actual challenge in static levels when you can just steamroll ahead of them. And AI is usually far better in battle facilities, escalating as you win more battles.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

But there's also no actual challenge in static levels when you can just steamroll ahead of them. And AI is usually far better in battle facilities, escalating as you win more battles.

Well yeah, but I can choose to make it challenging for myself by being underlevelled. People that aren't as good at battling can grind more and get an advantage that way.

I haven't really noticed the AI getting better in battle facilities. A little, sure, but not escalating far. It's still pretty dumb even when you get to 100+ wins in a row. It can't plan out a turn at all in double battles, for instance frequently using Helping Hand when the partner uses a status move, or opting to go for an attacking move over setup or healing while the partner already has the outspeed over the opponent and sufficient power to go for a double KO. And I've seen it do far dumber things, like healing its opponents with moves like Floral Healing, giving the opponent extra attacks by aiming Instruct at its opponents, repeatedly swapping the weather when a pokémon has two weather moves, and so on.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Well yeah, but I can choose to make it challenging for myself by being underlevelled. People that aren't as good at battling can grind more and get an advantage that way.

I haven't really noticed the AI getting better in battle facilities. A little, sure, but not escalating far. It's still pretty dumb even when you get to 100+ wins in a row. It can't plan out a turn at all in double battles, for instance frequently using Helping Hand when the partner uses a status move, or opting to go for an attacking move over setup or healing while the partner already has the outspeed over the opponent and sufficient power to go for a double KO. And I've seen it do far dumber things, like healing its opponents with moves like Floral Healing, giving the opponent extra attacks by aiming Instruct at its opponents, repeatedly swapping the weather when a pokémon has two weather moves, and so on.

Handicapping yourself is artificial difficulty, you're lowering your skills to the game's level in order to create a challenge. The problem is that the game isn't rising the player's level. It's not providing an appropriate difficulty that tests the player's full range of skills, you can just steamroll through the game with brute force and type advantages without really putting much thought in. The level CPU Pokemon are at has nothing to do with it, the solution to that depends more on AI and team design.

More on topic, I see no problem with using a level scaling system to facilitate open world design. They've already played around with this in the past with rematch teams, they can easily apply it to the main game teams.

 

[Cerex]

I really don't want levels to scale like that, it completely removes any kind of challenge the game can have for older players and makes battles trivial. If you're equally levelled to the opponent battles are trivial because the AI is just not nearly as competent as actual players are. There's a reason why you need dozens of wins in a row against randomly chosen opponents in the Battle Tree, to give it a degree of challenge. Winning individual battles is trivial, winning dozens of battles in a row introduces some sense of difficulty as sooner or later you'll run into battles where the dice aren't rolling in your favour and/or the opponent has a match-up advantage against you. In the current system I can challenge myself by opting to stay underlevelled. In Ultra Sun I was around level 22 at Olivia, level 45 when I fought Ultra Necrozma, I was around level 50 at the League. With level scaling that challenge is gone because 8-year-olds also have to be able to do it.

There's absolutely no reason why the difficulty of the NPC cannot be more stressed based on their class with getting rid of the level system, or taking a dramatic shift of it. Already Ace Trainers and Veterans use a somewhat more complicated battle strategy, and Youngsters have much weaker Pokemon. You could have a system where Ace Trainers have Pokemon with maxed IVs and challenging movesets. For the players not as hardcore the Devs could work around that. Either by changing the way losing in the game works and/or how you encounter trainer battles. If you are moving away from the traditional leveling system then automatic battles where you are challenged by other trainers that spot you can change as well. Maybe you have to actually talk to them and get them to agree to battle you, or that they will battle you only after certain conditions have been met, like in S/M. That way if you are in a position where you are more of a novice player you are not thrust into a situation you might not be prepared for, and once you clear the area you can still venture back and encounter a trainer that will put up a challenge later in your playthrough when you have more settled into the gameplay.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Handicapping yourself is artificial difficulty, you're lowering your skills to the game's level in order to create a challenge. The problem is that the game isn't rising the player's level. It's not providing an appropriate difficulty that tests the player's full range of skills, you can just steamroll through the game with brute force and type advantages without really putting much thought in. The level CPU Pokemon are at has nothing to do with it, the solution to that depends more on AI and team design.

More on topic, I see no problem with using a level scaling system to facilitate open world design. They've already played around with this in the past with rematch teams, they can easily apply it to the main game teams.

It's just difficult to make the game challenging for experienced players while still staying possible for people that never played pokémon before. When I first played Red I didn't even understand the language, I couldn't read English back then. I had to make do with just trying out what move did damage and what move did nothing (i.e. a status move which seemingly did nothing as I didn't understand stat changes), and I could still play that game and complete it. Ideally I'd like to see difficulty options added to pokémon, but in the likely absence of those artificially handicapping myself by being underlevelled is the next best thing I can do to make the story playthrough not a total bore.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

It's just difficult to make the game challenging for experienced players while still staying possible for people that never played pokémon before. When I first played Red I didn't even understand the language, I couldn't read English back then. I had to make do with just trying out what move did damage and what move did nothing (i.e. a status move which seemingly did nothing as I didn't understand stat changes), and I could still play that game and complete it. Ideally I'd like to see difficulty options added to pokémon, but in the likely absence of those artificially handicapping myself by being underlevelled is the next best thing I can do to make the story playthrough not a total bore.

Honestly if the games need to be this easy for casuals then difficulty modes are becoming a necessity. The difference in skill is far too great for them to subject different types of gamers to the same types of challenges and they need to have stronger teams for the more skilled players.

 

[Gen82]

I don't think the open world concept is a good fit for a JRPG like pokemon. JRPG use the level system to make stronger enemies as you go though the game, so even if you can explore the entire region all at once the level system would cause you to face some unbeatable enemies. What they should do is make a more branching path game where you have to choose your own starting path.

For a more detailed explanation of what I mean is that imagine having your home town in the middle of the region and there are three routes out of town. Your choice of pokemon determines what route you start on. Each of the three routes will loop back to the stating town and each will have a mini story that ties in with the main story of the game. You would need to complete two of the loops to move on to Victory Road and the Elite Four.

This style of game would provide players with the more personalized adventure that players want and be far easier to scale the difficultly. Simply adjust the level of the pokemon and trainers depending if you started the loop at the start, mid, or post game.

 

[Cerex]

I don't think the open world concept is a good fit for a JRPG like pokemon. JRPG use the level system to make stronger enemies as you go though the game, so even if you can explore the entire region all at once the level system would cause you to face some unbeatable enemies. What they should do is make a more branching path game where you have to choose your own starting path.

That presumes that difficulty can only be determined by level differences, but even the game doesn't adhere to that because you have areas like the Battle Tree where all Pokemon have the same level, and there is still a range when it comes to the difficulty based on the moveset and Pokemon they utilize.

You could have a game that is open where in which different class Pokemon Trainers have a different number of Pokemon, different number of Pokemon evolved, more advanced movesets, more item use, Mega Evolution, Z-Moves but still all be the same level.

In any open world game there are some enemies that are more difficult than others that players avoid until they are better equipped to battle. There's no reason it couldn't be the same in Pokemon. There are lots of ways to make battles more challenging without levels.

 

[paipr_christian]

More on topic, I see no problem with using a level scaling system to facilitate open world design. They've already played around with this in the past with rematch teams, they can easily apply it to the main game teams.

But how would it work? Your team's average levels? Would it relate to something like your "gym badge count"?

And if imagine trying to raise low level Pokemon, or trying to capture something and everything is scaled to like lvl 80+. People comment about the games getting easier imagine how easy it be to level up something when your trainer lvl average is 80+.

 

[Team Volt Grunt]

But how would it work? Your team's average levels? Would it relate to something like your "gym badge count"?

And if imagine trying to raise low level Pokemon, or trying to capture something and everything is scaled to like lvl 80+. People comment about the games getting easier imagine how easy it be to level up something when your trainer lvl average is 80+.

That's why I keep suggesting a player level. A lot of open world RPGs have a player level that increases by improving your skills or by earning experience from completing quests/missions. The player level could be what determines how powerful your enemies are, by scaling them to be in a range near yours. Or maybe a combination of your player level and average team level.

Wild pokemon don't necessarily have to be scaled, since they are wild. Or they could be scaled to a much lower range than trainers' pokemon. Or the wild scaling could vary by location. Or wild scaling could be based on your team levels instead of your player level. There are lots of different options.

 

[Scammel]

I think it's easy to overthink the over-levelling 'problem', and that SM/USUM had the equation pretty much bang on - keep wild Pokémon relatively low-level and tedious to farm, and make individual trainers tougher while being more expedient for EXP. A large number of trainers with a small number of high-level Pokémon each should keep the player roughly in-line with the levels of those Pokémon and ensure a decent degree of challenge throughout. If someone wants to grind to make the game a cakewalk, that's fine by me.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I think it's easy to overthink the over-levelling 'problem', and that SM/USUM had the equation pretty much bang on - keep wild Pokémon relatively low-level and tedious to farm, and make individual trainers tougher while being more expedient for EXP. A large number of trainers with a small number of high-level Pokémon each should keep the player roughly in-line with the levels of those Pokémon and ensure a decent degree of challenge throughout. If someone wants to grind to make the game a cakewalk, that's fine by me.

Wild pokémon aren't low level in Alola. I frequently had wild pokémon outlevelling my entire team. How are they low level when they are barely lower than the pokémon the trainers have?

 

[Scammel]

Huh, I may be misremembering. The calibre of trainers was certainly much higher than in any other generation and I seem to recall have a good level of challenge while only using wild Pokémon to top-up on levels rather than grinding.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

It's vastly different from for instance the Johto games. If I recall correctly Clair's best pokémon is around level 40, so the player should be around level 35 at that point in the game, and on the route after Blackthorn City a lot of the wild pokémon are around level 26-27 or so. In Alola after fighting at the Aether Foundation where Faba was around level 45, so player should be around level 38-40 there, and then you go to Poni Wilds pretty much right after that and wild pokémon are at level 41-44. And the trainers in USUM there are around level 45-46, there's barely a difference in level.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

But how would it work? Your team's average levels? Would it relate to something like your "gym badge count"?

Gym badge count, yeah. That's the simplest way to go.

And if imagine trying to raise low level Pokemon, or trying to capture something and everything is scaled to like lvl 80+. People comment about the games getting easier imagine how easy it be to level up something when your trainer lvl average is 80+.

I have a solution for that as well. The wild Pokemon could temporarily scale based on your current team, but trainers would be permanently scaled up. So if you want to go back to previously explored areas to catch new Pokemon and train them up you can, but if you try to venture into new areas and try to steamroll through the game with low level Pokemon, you'll get massacred.