General Character Discussion Thread

[Azery]

Personally I prefer Guzma to any other character in the game. Dude uses bug types, an underrated type so that gives him some points. His rather tragic childhood and his falling out with his master and friend(Hala and Kukui)leading to his eventual creating of Team Skull and the expression of what a vulnerable individual he is was shown of decently well by how he was led along by Lusamine. His theme's rock and he brings forth some of the best lines in the game. Love this guy.

 

[Muun]

Loving the representation of Bug, Fairy and Poison types in this game. I also love SM's female protag. Looks pretty close to me!

 

[Pokemon Fan]

Things go to crap and her protecting Nebby ultimately failed, and after all this, her character completely flips over to being very overly positive and free that anything is possible because her mom is gone and needs to be saved.

I'd expect the proper character to be her having an "all is lost" moment, then gradually developing into being more positive and determined about actually doing something rather than running away like she did in the past, and then changing her outfit towards the end when she leaves for Kanto as the final end to her development, that she's no longer the same Lillie in the beginning.

I think the implication was that most angst she went through was handled that last night she slept in the bed she shared with her mother as a child. She little doubt thought a great deal about things, which led to her deciding to move forward and stop doubting herself. The fact that she was willing to give herself up to Aether earlier showed that she had already changed quite a bit from the Lillie we saw at the beginning.

Necessity is the mother of change after all, she no longer had the option of taking things slowly. Nebbie needed her now, her mother needed her now, if she just sat around and moped then nothing would change.

 

[diakyu]

Lillie's development is all through the story starting from when Nebby dumps her on a beach at the start. Lusamine disappearing is the turning point for her because of the journey she's been on. Saying that there should be an "all is lost" moment is ignoring that she's been reunited with Gladion and now has plenty of friends beside her. She isn't being sought after anymore for Nebby and she can finally do things on her own terms and pace, and saving her mother is first brought up by Gladion almost immediately so she knows there is a solution straight from her big brother's mouth. There's no reason for her to get depressed when she's in a situation where the odds are in her favor. She was in a much worse situation at the beginning of the game when Nebby dumped her at some beach in a region she never sat foot on and knew none of the people there.

Besides she spent most of the game saying she can't do anything by herself and as the island passed she began to stray more away from Kukui (I don't even think they have any scenes together on the third island, a stark contrast to the beginning of the game) and became more adamant about visiting each island's ruins and learning about the lore in hopes of figuring out what Nebby was.

 

[YonaNoveau]

Do you really think its downplayed? I thought it was pretty awesome how she just casually strolls in and tells the whole group of grunts to stand down before giving a surprisingly sincere apology and explanation for what has happened.

Also, given how much she hated the whole "kidnap Lillie" plan it makes some sense that she got away from Aether as soon as she could so she wouldn't have to face what was happening.

That's kinda my point, or more precisely the other side. Those things by themselves would have been quite powerful if Plumeria had rooted herself firmly as a team skull member with her character poured and explored in it. However, since she wasnt', her apology and regret of her actions simply make you wonder why was she allied with them to begin with? I mean, her big sister relationship with them was never justified or explored, it just was, but there was never given a reason or backstory for Plumeria or a connection. She wasn't a failure, she wasn't weak, she wasn't looking to survive... if anything the game openly tells you she is better than the Team Skull and doesn't really share their issues or conflicts nor their worse actions, the most she has in common is her fashion sense. All that undermine her role as a villiain and her spot as an antagonist and weaken her eventual turn to good and her regret, because she never felt as part of the bad guys especially given how much the game went out of its way to portray in a pathetic yet sympathetic light Team Skull and Guzma as broken people, yet oddly left Plumeria out (good symbol of this, her room is the only tidy place in the entire Team Skull town). All is pretty odd, given in her title match in the league her comments do imply certain fear of failure, but it's not enough especially given it's not explored. Not to mention "lack of confidence" pretty easily falls into a fake flaw for a character.


While I am on the Wagon that really likes Lillie and her development, I can kind of see why some people may feel it was sudden. I mean, it was a pretty extreme change from a shy introverted insecure girl to "I'll let nothing stop me! I'll conquer everything!". I do think it is downplayed due to how many times Lillie is openly pushing himself to put on the cheerful face to conquer a fear or sadness that's coming up and this was seemed like an extreme measure on her side to deal with her mother's situation than just really feeling completely free. I mean, even after getting the Tennis Outfit (her second outfit) she kept having serious talks of how she admired the player's strength, stuff she would like to do, how she would like to be, etc. So in a way, the Z Form was the cover of big change with all the fireworks, but the foundations were still under work well until the game's finale. And the radical outfit change is kinda justified, she just bought the first outfit she was pressured in a shop so it was what she had at hand, and she was sick of being dressed as the mutant jellyfish that obsessed her crazy mom who forced her into said clother to begin with, it was like breathing after being underwater.

EDIT: I kind of agree that the >BT face was kinda out of place in the confrontation with Lusamine, though. It is absolutely adorable during conversations when you mess with her and all, but yeah, during the game's climax and the long awaited verbal beatdown Lillie needed a more serious expression.

 

[Ophie]

And I agree, though I don't remember much of BW to talk about Cheren and Bianca, the cast this time was a huge step up from XY and what essentially never came out of them.

A big part of the blandness of Calem, Serena, Shauna, Tierno, and...that kid with the glasses whose name escapes me at the moment...is that they were written a lot like a children's anime, and not a good one like One Piece or Sazae-san, but those merchandise-driven shows that are Japan's equivalent of those 80's Saturday morning cartoons. Another thing is that none of them received any character development, interesting backstories, or plot significance--except for Calem/Serena, they just fell by the wayside when the Team Flare story picked up, and after that, they were back to doing the same things as before. Tierno was the only exception to that, going from a kid with no direction to creating theme teams (he'd love having Oricorio) and for that, he was the most interesting one of them to me.

Also, who was on the right side of history when it came to believing Zinnia in ORAS? I knew she wasn't just some crazy person. JRPG rule of thumb, if a character says it and isn't outright proven wrong it's likely completely true.

Well, that's also the case with fiction in general: If you don't see a character actually do something, any character saying it is the next best thing, unless that character is marked as untrustworthy, dumb, drunk, or a prankster. It's always a big twist whevener a character's statements turn out to be a lie, even when villains say it. I mean, you see it all the time with James Bond: His villains tell him what he needs to know, and they never mislead him. ("No, Mr. Bond--I expect you to die" is famous for a reason: It's a subversion of the usual info dump.)

That's an interesting point, but I do think they did intend for the character to develop over the course of the story. When Lillie gets kidnapped, he laments that he wasn't able to stop it and that's one of the reasons why he joins you and Gladion in trying to save her. So his desire to be strong is highlighted, but it's never truly shown how much he's grown from that low point and his personality remains the same as it did before, so despite the highlight of that low point being there, it's never utilized at all. If the point was to not have the character grow or grow subtlety, I think they missed the mark with him as he doesn't show as much in either category. Even earlier games kind of got that right as you can see nuances in things such as N always having an ever changing team in BW or Silver evolving his Crobat in GSCHGSS, so I think they could've done better with him.

Actually, if you look closely, N fights solely with Pokémon found near wherever you fight him, only a few levels higher. It goes hand in hand with his beliefs that people should not own Pokémon, the implication being that he gathers them nearby, battles the protagonist with them, then lets them go and moves to his next location. That's why N's team is always changing.

My interpretation with Hau is that he gained confidence as the game went on. He put up a happy face but was filled with insecurity at the start, and by the end, his happy face is genuine. That being said, he didn't undergo any character development for a large portion of the game and only found the confidence he needed near the end. It's just that Hau has the same personality and attitude from start to finish. Also, as a character, he is hamstrung by the player character, who by necessity must never lose, so it's hard to write a character who grows more confident if there is another character who is unbeatable and functionally invincible.

 

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Hau was the worst character in the game by far. He was annoying and felt like a third wheel most of the time. So glad he was missing from the final act of the story was, he is up there with the worst male rival with BW2 in my opinion.

 

[Taodragon]

Actually, if you look closely, N fights solely with Pokémon found near wherever you fight him, only a few levels higher. It goes hand in hand with his beliefs that people should not own Pokémon, the implication being that he gathers them nearby, battles the protagonist with them, then lets them go and moves to his next location. That's why N's team is always changing.

My interpretation with Hau is that he gained confidence as the game went on. He put up a happy face but was filled with insecurity at the start, and by the end, his happy face is genuine. That being said, he didn't undergo any character development for a large portion of the game and only found the confidence he needed near the end. It's just that Hau has the same personality and attitude from start to finish. Also, as a character, he is hamstrung by the player character, who by necessity must never lose, so it's hard to write a character who grows more confident if there is another character who is unbeatable and functionally invincible.

Yeah, I should've explained the N point better, his team always changing was a good reflection of his beliefs and it was a subtle aspect of him that was appreciated.

And I think the last sentence with Hau is probably why he feels more limited, he's tied to the MC, so his potential growth from having a happy façade who wants to be stronger to being a genuinely happy person who is strong isn't as easily portrayed since it's more limited by the focus on the protagonist. Maybe having him and Gladion face off in the story one more time on top of the one that's we only catch the end of may've helped in that respect since both of their characters and development can play off of each other, and either of the two can lose from a story perspective since they don't have to be invincible and are allowed to be more fallable. Plus, it adds to their dynamic that the game already presents, which I think both from benefit from.

 

[Ophie]

And I think the last sentence with Hau is probably why he feels more limited, he's tied to the MC, so his potential growth from having a happy façade who wants to be stronger to being a genuinely happy person who is strong isn't as easily portrayed since it's more limited by the focus on the protagonist. Maybe having him and Gladion face off in the story one more time on top of the one that's we only catch the end of may've helped in that respect since both of their characters and development can play off of each other, and either of the two can lose from a story perspective since they don't have to be invincible and are allowed to be more fallable. Plus, it adds to their dynamic that the game already presents, which I think both from benefit from.

I personally would've liked some moments where the player character actually loses, or battling is what causes something even worse to happen. But I know that wouldn't fly in games aimed at kids, who play video games to feel powerful and dominating. You can see it in how amazingly well most Pokémon main characters take losses (and certainly better than those kids would). It also wouldn't fly for people who just want to get to the end of a Pokémon game so they can build teams and battle them.

 

[goodpeople25]

Yeah when I mentioned recently paying more attention to lack of story telling tools I've seen in other games in another thread, it was mainly stuff similar that, I think'd it be nice to see a final fantasy (or whatever example is better for you) esque unbeatable boss or at least more optional to defeat ones. (didn't we already get one of those with the battle royal, I heard you could easily lose that fight with no consequence, but then I won so just hearsay)

But the point it seems to circulate is utizling the battle system differently for the story but the only examples in the main series I can think of is for tutorials, so having a loss seems unlikely to happen even without any concerns about having the main protagonist lose. Though I'm more of an optimist and unbeatable dosen't necessarily mean you lose. (But then stuff like having the opponent be impossible to defeat and then the fight cutting out would most likely require more stuff to do) And we've witnessed fights lost before just offscreen. I'd kinda like to see at least the end of barry's fight with saturn if/when we get the remakes but it's gen 7 with not much change on that front and we do have cutscenes now which I guess kinda makes it redundant.

 

[Mr.Munchlax]

Out of curisoity, does anyone know if there's a main recurring character in Sun and Moon who specializes in Ice types?

A while ago I noticed that there are several prominent characters in the game who specialize in types that aren't covered by the trial captains, the Kahunas, or the Elite Four. A few examples would include Guzma who specializes in Bug types, Ryuki who specializes in Dragon types, Faba who specializes in Psychic types, and Plumeria who specializes in Poison types. However, I can't seem to find anyone who specializes in Ice type pokémon.

The only person I can find is Sina, but I'm not too sure if she counts since Dexio uses Psychic types, and we've already got Faba for the main Psychic specialist. Because of this, I thought that could mean there's another main Ice type user out there somewhere

 

[gliscor&yanmega]

Out of curisoity, does anyone know if there's a main recurring character in Sun and Moon who specializes in Ice types?

A while ago I noticed that there are several prominent characters in the game who specialize in types that aren't covered by the trial captains, the Kahunas, or the Elite Four. A few examples would include Guzma who specializes in Bug types, Ryuki who specializes in Dragon types, Faba who specializes in Psychic types, and Plumeria who specializes in Poison types. However, I can't seem to find anyone who specializes in Ice type pokémon.

The only person I can find is Sina, but I'm not too sure if she counts since Dexio uses Psychic types, and we've already got Faba for the main Psychic specialist. Because of this, I thought that could mean there's another main Ice type user out there somewhere

There is none. There can be more than one character who specializes in a type though(In this gen alone there is Nanu and Grimsley, both Dark specialists), so no reason to not count Dexio as a Psychic specialist and by extension Sina as an Ice specialist.

 

[phanpycross]

Found this picture on Reddit, and it's kinda interesting.

[IMG139]http://i.imgur.com/emgXGUv.png[/IMG139]

 

[Sαpphire]

^Yeah, I have to admit I was completely confused as to how on hearth Ilima was a specialist in anything other than Fairy. His whole character honestly screams Fairy, from the eyes and the pink hair down to personality. I suppose they might have made him a Normal type specialist partly for the sake of making the first trial captain an easier type to battle against, or something, but swapping his and Mina's roles would have worked out just fine.

 

[Bguy7]

Yeah, similar thoughts crossed my mind too.

 

[YonaNoveau]

Having a hopeless boss fight would actually be a good way to establish a villiain or a rival, and would make it all the sweeter when you finally catch up and turn the tables.

A big part of the blandness of Calem, Serena, Shauna, Tierno, and...that kid with the glasses whose name escapes me at the moment...is that they were written a lot like a children's anime, and not a good one like One Piece or Sazae-san, but those merchandise-driven shows that are Japan's equivalent of those 80's Saturday morning cartoons. Another thing is that none of them received any character development, interesting backstories, or plot significance--except for Calem/Serena, they just fell by the wayside when the Team Flare story picked up, and after that, they were back to doing the same things as before. Tierno was the only exception to that, going from a kid with no direction to creating theme teams (he'd love having Oricorio) and for that, he was the most interesting one of them to me.
.

The glasses kid is Cheren. Yeah, this is my gripe with them as well. In general this is something that bothers me a lot (and something I am obnoxiously vocal about =P): lack of actual development. I never found any of them unlikeable at all. Most people find those two group of friends outright annoying, but I actually found their base personalities okay. It's just that they never went anywhere, just as you say,. Tierno suffered particularly bad from this, not in the case he was the blandest... but he was the case where it should have least happened, given he had a clear dream and goal and passion about it, that was completely unexplored, given XY was the only generation games post Contest introduction that lacked that kind of mini game didn't it? I mean, Gen V had musicals where he would have fit nicely. Had Gen VI used something like that or... I dunno, Poke Dance Off he could have gotten his role and development as a character and rival there.

 

[Sαpphire]

Having a hopeless boss fight would actually be a good way to establish a villiain or a rival, and would make it all the sweeter when you finally catch up and turn the tables.

Honestly, they do that well enough as it is in some cases. I loved how you just moved on in the story if you were defeated at certain points - my first time through I remember losing to Sina, Hau (on Ula'ula), and Lusamine (at the Aether Paradise) and instead of blacking out to challenge them again you just kept going in the story. It makes the loss sink in a little more, provides a little frustration with the fact that you can't try again.

I wouldn't mind if Gladion had been so overpowered when you first meet him that you lose no matter what - he seemed to have the right kind of character and personality to pull that off nicely.

 

[Akashin]

The glasses kid is Cheren. Yeah, this is my gripe with them as well. In general this is something that bothers me a lot (and something I am obnoxiously vocal about =P): lack of actual development. I never found any of them unlikeable at all. Most people find those two group of friends outright annoying, but I actually found their base personalities okay. It's just that they never went anywhere, just as you say,. Tierno suffered particularly bad from this, not in the case he was the blandest... but he was the case where it should have least happened, given he had a clear dream and goal and passion about it, that was completely unexplored, given XY was the only generation games post Contest introduction that lacked that kind of mini game didn't it? I mean, Gen V had musicals where he would have fit nicely. Had Gen VI used something like that or... I dunno, Poke Dance Off he could have gotten his role and development as a character and rival there.

He didn't have glasses, but I'm pretty sure Ophie meant Trevor. There was nothing wrong with Cheren; wrong game(s) too, for that matter.

I agree completely about Tierno though. He really felt like there should have been something there.

 

[Legendary Dreams]

Yeah when I mentioned recently paying more attention to lack of story telling tools I've seen in other games in another thread, it was mainly stuff similar that, I think'd it be nice to see a final fantasy (or whatever example is better for you) esque unbeatable boss or at least more optional to defeat ones. (didn't we already get one of those with the battle royal, I heard you could easily lose that fight with no consequence, but then I won so just hearsay)

But the point it seems to circulate is utizling the battle system differently for the story but the only examples in the main series I can think of is for tutorials, so having a loss seems unlikely to happen even without any concerns about having the main protagonist lose. Though I'm more of an optimist and unbeatable dosen't necessarily mean you lose. (But then stuff like having the opponent be impossible to defeat and then the fight cutting out would most likely require more stuff to do) And we've witnessed fights lost before just offscreen. I'd kinda like to see at least the end of barry's fight with saturn if/when we get the remakes but it's gen 7 with not much change on that front and we do have cutscenes now which I guess kinda makes it redundant.

Unless your team is really that terrible and gets completely swept, you technically can "lose" to Nihilego the first time round (take too many turns and it flees) as well. Sure, it isn't a real loss, but I would say a plot-relevant Ultra Beast induced "loss" is a lot better than an actual loss in a friendly Battle Royal. Not that I got to experience it - I had a terribly over-leveled Incineroar and Darkest Lariat gives no care about defense boosts...

 

[Ophie]

Yeah when I mentioned recently paying more attention to lack of story telling tools I've seen in other games in another thread, it was mainly stuff similar that, I think'd it be nice to see a final fantasy (or whatever example is better for you) esque unbeatable boss or at least more optional to defeat ones. (didn't we already get one of those with the battle royal, I heard you could easily lose that fight with no consequence, but then I won so just hearsay)

But the point it seems to circulate is utizling the battle system differently for the story but the only examples in the main series I can think of is for tutorials, so having a loss seems unlikely to happen even without any concerns about having the main protagonist lose. Though I'm more of an optimist and unbeatable dosen't necessarily mean you lose. (But then stuff like having the opponent be impossible to defeat and then the fight cutting out would most likely require more stuff to do) And we've witnessed fights lost before just offscreen. I'd kinda like to see at least the end of barry's fight with saturn if/when we get the remakes but it's gen 7 with not much change on that front and we do have cutscenes now which I guess kinda makes it redundant.

Indeed--I lost the Battle Royal as I had no idea what was going on.

But I think the idea is that Pokémon games also have to be appealing to little kids. They don't want to feel like losers. They get enough of that in school. Kids enjoy feeling overwhelmingly powerful, and part of Pokémon games' appeal to kids is that it lets them feel like a boss. Pokémon games let the player feel like they're taking down criminal organizations and becoming a champion of something, and while I personally wouldn't mind seeing an unwinnable fight somewhere, I know these kids would feel angry and cheated.

The glasses kid is Cheren. Yeah, this is my gripe with them as well. In general this is something that bothers me a lot (and something I am obnoxiously vocal about =P): lack of actual development. I never found any of them unlikeable at all. Most people find those two group of friends outright annoying, but I actually found their base personalities okay. It's just that they never went anywhere, just as you say,. Tierno suffered particularly bad from this, not in the case he was the blandest... but he was the case where it should have least happened, given he had a clear dream and goal and passion about it, that was completely unexplored, given XY was the only generation games post Contest introduction that lacked that kind of mini game didn't it? I mean, Gen V had musicals where he would have fit nicely. Had Gen VI used something like that or... I dunno, Poke Dance Off he could have gotten his role and development as a character and rival there.

Actually, the character I had in mind was Trevor. He didn't even wear glasses--I just remembered he looked quite similar to Max from the anime and shared Max's preference for Pokédex-filling over battling. That's how forgettable he was.

He didn't have glasses, but I'm pretty sure Ophie meant Trevor. There was nothing wrong with Cheren; wrong game(s) too, for that matter.

I agree completely about Tierno though. He really felt like there should have been something there.

Indeed--I confused him with Max from the anime. Even though Max is not quite as forgettable as Trevor.