General Character Discussion Thread

[Pokemon Fan]

It's not that easy. Even if it's just three possibilities as mentioned earlier (kid, teenager, and adult), that's still three different paths for the player character to encounter and thus three times the work. Even if it's just different dialogue and the story goes on as normal, there is so much dialogue in a Pokémon game (and it's been this way from the start, for that matter), it'll be a nightmare to write all of this dialogue and check it with the other dialogue for consistency and accuracy.

Indeed it would certainly be a lot more work. Its a small nitpick but I did dislike how so many of the characters didn't get new dialog after the events they were referring to ended (in Aether Paradise everyone except Gladion in the conservation area will still be reacting to the wormhole from the middle of the game even in the postgame as if it were still there, and Hapu's grandmother continues to tell you where to meet Hapu even when Hapu is back in her house).

 

[Ophie]

Indeed it would certainly be a lot more work. Its a small nitpick but I did dislike how so many of the characters didn't get new dialog after the events they were referring to ended (in Aether Paradise everyone except Gladion in the conservation area will still be reacting to the wormhole from the middle of the game even in the postgame as if it were still there, and Hapu's grandmother continues to tell you where to meet Hapu even when Hapu is back in her house).

Very few games have different dialogue for every NPC that evolves throughout the game because, as you probably figure, it's a monumental effort. The original Paper Mario for the Nintendo 64 actually had such evolving dialogue for every NPC, as well as a quick profile for everyone in the game and every enemy in the game. If I recall correctly, the game's English version had about 500,000 characters (as in letters, numbers, punctuation, and spaces) of dialogue and narration. The sequel, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is said to have over 1 million characters in its text. They stopped doing that in subsequent games, it seems--must've worn the writers to the ground that they didn't ever want to do it again.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Very few games have different dialogue for every NPC that evolves throughout the game because, as you probably figure, it's a monumental effort. The original Paper Mario for the Nintendo 64 actually had such evolving dialogue for every NPC, as well as a quick profile for everyone in the game and every enemy in the game. If I recall correctly, the game's English version had about 500,000 characters (as in letters, numbers, punctuation, and spaces) of dialogue and narration. The sequel, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is said to have over 1 million characters in its text. They stopped doing that in subsequent games, it seems--must've worn the writers to the ground that they didn't ever want to do it again.

wow they put a lot of work into those games, no wonder theyre the best of the series (paper mario 64 and thousand year door)

Also for age in pokemon games, I think they should start making it very very very ambiguous what age you are. They should stop locking us down into a ten year old's life.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

Indeed it would certainly be a lot more work. Its a small nitpick but I did dislike how so many of the characters didn't get new dialog after the events they were referring to ended (in Aether Paradise everyone except Gladion in the conservation area will still be reacting to the wormhole from the middle of the game even in the postgame as if it were still there, and Hapu's grandmother continues to tell you where to meet Hapu even when Hapu is back in her house).

I found one Aether NPC who got a speech change, but other than them I couldn't find anyone else. I'm not too concerned though.

What does concern me is that the best place I can find to grind up levels is the Poni Plains, and they're not amazing. I wish there was an area with higher levelled trainers/Pokemon that could help me grind up levels on Pokemon to fill up my Dex. But that's not for this thread. So I'll end that there.

 

[Sαpphire]

It's not that easy. Even if it's just three possibilities as mentioned earlier (kid, teenager, and adult), that's still three different paths for the player character to encounter and thus three times the work. Even if it's just different dialogue and the story goes on as normal, there is so much dialogue in a Pokémon game (and it's been this way from the start, for that matter), it'll be a nightmare to write all of this dialogue and check it with the other dialogue for consistency and accuracy.

Very few games have different dialogue for every NPC that evolves throughout the game because, as you probably figure, it's a monumental effort. The original Paper Mario for the Nintendo 64 actually had such evolving dialogue for every NPC, as well as a quick profile for everyone in the game and every enemy in the game. If I recall correctly, the game's English version had about 500,000 characters (as in letters, numbers, punctuation, and spaces) of dialogue and narration. The sequel, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is said to have over 1 million characters in its text. They stopped doing that in subsequent games, it seems--must've worn the writers to the ground that they didn't ever want to do it again.

Well, I really don't think the whole story has to be written three times if they cut back on age-specific dialogue and scenes. Literally just not mentioning age in most of the story would be perfectly fine.

Besides, when they have years to develop a main series game, you really have to wonder if this would be all that much more work - and that's especially true if we start to move to home consoles on the main series, since plenty of home console games do more complex things with dialogue and character building.

 

[Bguy7]

Well, I really don't think the whole story has to be written three times if they cut back on age-specific dialogue and scenes. Literally just not mentioning age in most of the story would be perfectly fine.

That may be true, but it would come at the cost of making the playable character less of an actual character and more of a generic bystander. I think Sun and Moon was definitely going in the right direction in making the playable character actually feel like a part of the story, rather than someone who always seems to be at the right place at the right time.

 

[Sαpphire]

That may be true, but it would come at the cost of making the playable character less of an actual character and more of a generic bystander. I think Sun and Moon was definitely going in the right direction in making the playable character actually feel like a part of the story, rather than someone who always seems to be at the right place at the right time.

But did any of that depend on concrete age information, like they several times they were all like "oh you're 11 right? Yes? Yes." I agree but I felt that was more rooted in the dialogue from characters like Lillie, the changing expression every once in a while, and the small, tight-knit cast provided for Alola.

Really if they're going to keep going with silent protagonists (which is fine) I think well-developed characters like Lillie are absolutely essential. She's easily one of the most developed in the franchise and I love it.

 

[Bguy7]

But did any of that depend on concrete age information, like they several times they were all like "oh you're 11 right? Yes? Yes." I agree but I felt that was more rooted in the dialogue from characters like Lillie, the changing expression every once in a while, and the small, tight-knit cast provided for Alola.

Really if they're going to keep going with silent protagonists (which is fine) I think well-developed characters like Lillie are absolutely essential. She's easily one of the most developed in the franchise and I love it.

If you ask me at least, a big part of the characterization given to the player character comes from the fact that they're on a coming-of-age ceremony. That's why it was suddenly necessary to mention the characters name in-game for the first time. Even if the age doesn't directly affect the story, in my opinion, the more set in stone facts about the character there are, the more of an actual character they are, regardless of whether or not it has any direct bearings on the story.

 

[Ophie]

Besides, when they have years to develop a main series game, you really have to wonder if this would be all that much more work - and that's especially true if we start to move to home consoles on the main series, since plenty of home console games do more complex things with dialogue and character building.

Never underestimate how much work has to be done in a project for anything, no matter how small. Whatever small thing that has to be done, there's a good chance it'll balloon out to something big. And when only a few video games have ever done something that doesn't seem like much work, odds are it actually is.

If you ask me at least, a big part of the characterization given to the player character comes from the fact that they're on a coming-of-age ceremony. That's why it was suddenly necessary to mention the characters name in-game for the first time. Even if the age doesn't directly affect the story, in my opinion, the more set in stone facts about the character there are, the more of an actual character they are, regardless of whether or not it has any direct bearings on the story.

Come to think of it, every Pokémon game begins with something of a coming-of-age event. They specify that kids of a certain age will get to go on a Pokémon adventure, and the narrative goes along accordingly. Somehow, it doesn't ever feel right if an adult is doing whatever the player character is doing in a Pokémon game.

And again, I have no problem playing as characters far younger than myself in video games. They're not me.

 

[Grey Wind]

I don't see the big deal in having player characters of different ages. Pokemon has always been about a young character starting their journey, and I don't think they really need to change that. What I want is for the PC to have actual expressions on their face. It's so awkward in SM when everyone is reacting to something serious and you're just like :).

 

[Sαpphire]

If you ask me at least, a big part of the characterization given to the player character comes from the fact that they're on a coming-of-age ceremony. That's why it was suddenly necessary to mention the characters name in-game for the first time. Even if the age doesn't directly affect the story, in my opinion, the more set in stone facts about the character there are, the more of an actual character they are, regardless of whether or not it has any direct bearings on the story.

I just personally don't see that as true with regard to age. There's no reason it needs to be predetermined, just as there's not necessarily a need for appearance to be predetermined. A character, story, and game can be exceptionally well-written without having a completely predetermined protagonist, with the intent being to give players the ability to further immerse themselves in the experience.

Never underestimate how much work has to be done in a project for anything, no matter how small. Whatever small thing that has to be done, there's a good chance it'll balloon out to something big. And when only a few video games have ever done something that doesn't seem like much work, odds are it actually is.

Come to think of it, every Pokémon game begins with something of a coming-of-age event. They specify that kids of a certain age will get to go on a Pokémon adventure, and the narrative goes along accordingly. Somehow, it doesn't ever feel right if an adult is doing whatever the player character is doing in a Pokémon game.

And again, I have no problem playing as characters far younger than myself in video games. They're not me.

There are tons of console games that have done it, and the 3DS has the power that some older consoles had when they began featuring games with the option. It really isn't all that much work if the story is written with the feature in mind.

I completely disagree that it feels wrong for an older character to be the protagonist in a Pokémon game. I further note that I've also stated that, when a character is otherwise entirely predetermined, I also have no issue with the age, but the Sun and Moon protagonists have essentially the bare minimum of definition. They don't even have preset values available for names. Even if you don't treat them as "you," I think that it's clear that Game Freak wanted to use the extensive customization features to emphasize the player character being an extension of the player.

In any case I can't bring myself to understand why anyone would be specifically against the idea of even a limited age slider when we have options now for gender, skin tone, eye color, hair color, hair style, clothing, accessories, bags, headware, and whatever else - even if you might not use it at all. It seems like something rather trivial and I can imagine people making these same arguments against the implementation of any extensive customization before the sixth generation - that it would be too much work, or that it would affect dialogue, or that we've traditionally had predefined characters, etc.

 

[Bguy7]

In any case I can't bring myself to understand why anyone would be specifically against the idea of even a limited age slider when we have options now for gender, skin tone, eye color, hair color, hair style, clothing, accessories, bags, headware, and whatever else - even if you might not use it at all. It seems like something rather trivial and I can imagine people making these same arguments against the implementation of any extensive customization before the sixth generation - that it would be too much work, or that it would affect dialogue, or that we've traditionally had predefined characters, etc.

Well personally, I'm even against the idea of customization options such as those. Having age change would just be taking a step further, when I would rather have it take a step back. I'd rather play as an established character rather than a self-insert.

 

[Pokemon Fan]

Also for age in pokemon games, I think they should start making it very very very ambiguous what age you are. They should stop locking us down into a ten year old's life.

Actually its my understanding that the player character's age in the games has until Sun/Moon always been pretty ambiguous (and even in Sun/Moon there is some ambiguity) beyond obviously being young. Its the anime that specified starting trainers as being 10 years old, not the games.

 

[Sαpphire]

Well personally, I'm even against the idea of customization options such as those. Having age change would just be taking a step further, when I would rather have it take a step back. I'd rather play as an established character rather than a self-insert.

I can understand that entirely, actually. I really liked Brendan, just as an example, and I'd be totally fine with just established characters if they continued to go that way, though I'm also open to seeing where customization keeps going! Brendan, Ethan/Gold, and Kris are some of my favorite video game characters - even if they don't talk or anything. They're just really well-designed.

I feel like out of the Gen 7 characters Lillie really captures the same spirit, for me - she's an amazing character and I'd honestly kind of like to get a game in which she's the protagonist (although I know all too well that wouldn't happen, at least as a main series release).

Actually, a lot of the characters introduced in Gen 7 remind me of the classic Kanto characters in some way, though I can't quantify it. Maybe it's just how much I enjoy the character designs, maybe it's more. There's also a lot about them that reminds me of Hoenn characters, down to specifics, and they usually align strongly with corresponding types. Hala reminds me of Brawly (and of a Hariyama) and Kahili reminds me of Winona, among others.

Actually its my understanding that the player character's age in the games has until Sun/Moon always been pretty ambiguous (and even in Sun/Moon there is some ambiguity) beyond obviously being young. Its the anime that specified starting trainers as being 10 years old, not the games.

From what I can determine: Leaf, Ethan, Kris, Lyra, Lucas, Dawn, Calem, and Serena had no real established ages - I think character design allows us to presume that a couple of them might be a little over the 10/11 age. Red, Brendan, and May had established ages, Hilbert and Hilda had some approximate age info, and Nate and Rosa are presumed to be about the same as Hilbert and Hilda. And now Sun and Moon appear to be pretty clearly 11. So I guess, really, it's been about half and half, with a couple "aged" protags only having approximate values.

I think I'd agree with you that more often than not, the anime is more clear about the whole age thing, what with the "Ash is eternally ten" ordeal.

 

[Ophie]

I just personally don't see that as true with regard to age. There's no reason it needs to be predetermined, just as there's not necessarily a need for appearance to be predetermined. A character, story, and game can be exceptionally well-written without having a completely predetermined protagonist, with the intent being to give players the ability to further immerse themselves in the experience.

They CAN be, but they're a great deal more difficult. Children, teenagers, young adults, middle-aged people, and the elderly all occupy different places in society, and other people treat them differently depending on their age. Same with gender. It's exceedingly difficult to write a compelling story where the character has no distinguishing characteristics at all (except for being human). Harry Potter wouldn't work if he and his friends weren't teenagers. Psycho wouldn't work if the characters weren't old enough to have relationships but not too old as to look like they've been divorced. Batman Beyond is introduced by showing how impractical Bruce Wayne is as Batman when he grows old. Archie Bunker would be less funny and more disturbing if he wasn't old. Could you imagine The Goonies if it were about a bunch of men and women in their 40s finding a treasure map and all running off to go looking for it? Or CSI if the forensics team consists solely of 8-year-olds?

The only stories where it's truly irrelevant as to the character's age and sex, and any details wouldn't make for a better story, are ones with settings far removed from our own. Stuff like the Elder Scrolls series, the Mass Effect series, and Xenoblade Chronicles X work because their settings are nothing like our own, and any type of person could theoretically embark on the story the protagonists of these stories go through. The Pokémon series is NOT one of those. It has fantastic creatures and an infrastructure built around them, but otherwise, the social structure, technology level, and human culture seems pretty similar to our own. The protagonists have consistently been between early tween and late teenagers. That's the age range when they're trusted to go outside and not get in trouble but not old enough that adults take them that seriously.

There are tons of console games that have done it, and the 3DS has the power that some older consoles had when they began featuring games with the option. It really isn't all that much work if the story is written with the feature in mind.

And that's that underestimation that I mentioned. You can't brush off any facet of a major, complex project as "isn't all that much work." Other games have done it, but they haven't told you how much or how little work goes into it. You never can tell what will give the crew tremendous trouble.

For instance, Pixar spent a year trying to get Violet's hair to move right in The Incredibles. (No 3-D CGI character had ever had long hair in the form of individual strands before.) The scene in the first Muppets movie where Gonzo goes flying into the air holding onto a bunch of balloons was extremely difficult to do. The entire development time behind Indivisible has had at least one person trying to make believable-looking shadows. It took Steve Oedekirk about 200 kung fu and wuxia movies until he found the one good enough to be used for Kung Pow! Enter the Fist. The pinball machine for The Hobbit went through 2 years' worth of revisions to the artwork until they got to one that got Time Warner's approval. These are all things the consumer takes for granted and doesn't look like much work but actually were.

In fact, the reason why Pokémon games used to have such a long lead time to be translated into English is because it takes that long to translate everything, then rewrite all the dialogue so they sound natural. They can do simultaneous or near-simultaneous releases now because each language team collaborates closely with the Japanese Game Freak team, but before that, even the Generation I Pokémon games needed at least several months before a non-Japanese language is ready.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Actually its my understanding that the player character's age in the games has until Sun/Moon always been pretty ambiguous (and even in Sun/Moon there is some ambiguity) beyond obviously being young. Its the anime that specified starting trainers as being 10 years old, not the games.

oh well I completely disagree about being able to feel any age in any of the games, and throughout the games I've never felt older than 10 years old due to how people always react to the player. But you can easily ignore those things I'd say.

But I do agree that the anime is more defined age wise

edit: let me rephrase that it's annoying to be locked down into a child's life in the pokemon games. Doesn't have to be ten, can be eleven lol really doesnt matter, but they're still children non-the less which was my point.

 

[Akashin]

edit: let me rephrase that it's annoying to be locked down into a child's life in the pokemon games. Doesn't have to be ten, can be eleven lol really doesnt matter, but they're still children non-the less which was my point.

Perhaps so, but that's one of those things that fall under the umbrella of us being adults playing a game intended for kids. Even if they don't completely ignore our demographic, per se, we're still not the focus.

I'm with Ophie on this. And as somebody who enjoys it when the games make a legitimate effort at having a good story, I wouldn't want to see that sacrificed for the sake of a story where the player character is even more disconnected from the story than they already are.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Perhaps so, but that's one of those things that fall under the umbrella of us being adults playing a game intended for kids. Even if they don't completely ignore our demographic, per se, we're still not the focus.

I'm with Ophie on this. And as somebody who enjoys it when the games make a legitimate effort at having a good story, I wouldn't want to see that sacrificed for the sake of a story where the player character is even more disconnected from the story than they already are.

I've been playing since I was 5 and have never liked the idea of a child traveling around with monsters and participating in the events included in the games, so being an adult myself right now doesn't have much to do with it. But it's definitely personal preference in the end. I don't think it has anything to do with the story if people you battle end up saying "oh I was beaten bad" instead of "oh beaten by a kid." Those little things, otherwise they basically treat you as a teenager, someone who is around 16 to 18 except for the fact you know you're between 10 and 11 years old. I think Ophie is going into it as if age has a lot to do with the story of the games when in fact it doesn't really have much to do with it. All you have to be is a fresh trainer and you can go through the story in the exact same way, except it'd make a lot more sense.

 

[Akashin]

I've been playing since I was 5 and have never liked the idea of a child traveling around with monsters and participating in the events included in the games, so being an adult myself right now doesn't have much to do with it. But it's definitely personal preference in the end. I don't think it has anything to do with the story if people you battle end up saying "oh I was beaten bad" instead of "oh beaten by a kid." Those little things, otherwise they basically treat you as a teenager, someone who is around 16 to 18 except for the fact you know you're between 10 and 11 years old. I think Ophie is going into it as if age has a lot to do with the story of the games when in fact it doesn't really have much to do with it. All you have to be is a fresh trainer and you can go through the story in the exact same way, except it'd make a lot more sense.

Neither have I, particularly, but Pokemon isn't unique in this regard. It's not uncommon for a story's main character to be put at an age similar to the target audience of the story in question; it's why so much anime focuses on teenagers, just as it's why Pokemon is about a young kid striking out into the world for the first time (and then doing a handful of things that logically should be left to somebody a fair bit older, but I digress).

I'd be lying if I said I thought much about whether or not a 10-11 year old kid toppling a criminal organization made any sense when I was a kid playing these games. But I can definitely look back and see that I identified more with the character then, whereas these days I tend to think of the player character more as a separate character even though there's not much there. And that ability to insert yourself is what they're aiming for.

As for whether or not age plays a factor, that depends. It definitely did this time, with the focus being on the Trials being a coming-of-age ceremony. But it doesn't have to be, and in many of the past games it didn't. The only other time I can think of where age may have been relevant would have been BW, where I feel it wouldn't have worked as well if your character wasn't similar in age to N. With that said, making who your character is (of which how old they are is a factor) a relevant part of the story is part of what I liked about these games.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Neither have I, particularly, but Pokemon isn't unique in this regard. It's not uncommon for a story's main character to be put at an age similar to the target audience of the story in question; it's why so much anime focuses on teenagers, just as it's why Pokemon is about a young kid striking out into the world for the first time (and then doing a handful of things that logically should be left to somebody a fair bit older, but I digress).

I'd be lying if I said I thought much about whether or not a 10-11 year old kid toppling a criminal organization made any sense when I was a kid playing these games. But I can definitely look back and see that I identified more with the character then, whereas these days I tend to think of the player character more as a separate character even though there's not much there. And that ability to insert yourself is what they're aiming for.

As for whether or not age plays a factor, that depends. It definitely did this time, with the focus being on the Trials being a coming-of-age ceremony. But it doesn't have to be, and in many of the past games it didn't. The only other time I can think of where age may have been relevant would have been BW, where I feel it wouldn't have worked as well if your character wasn't similar in age to N. With that said, making who your character is (of which how old they are is a factor) a relevant part of the story is part of what I liked about these games.

I can concur with these paragraphs maybe it was since I just played BW and then switched to SM
It's definitely not really an issue and something that doesn't take anything away from the games, just something that could be switched if you know what I mean. Pokemon is still my fav whether I have to be ten or not

Although now that I think about it (hopefully not off topic) but are the trainers in the games usually the same age as their manga counter parts? Or are the manga counter parts usually around ten years old is what I am wondering.