General Character Discussion Thread

[Ophie]

I've been playing since I was 5 and have never liked the idea of a child traveling around with monsters and participating in the events included in the games, so being an adult myself right now doesn't have much to do with it. But it's definitely personal preference in the end. I don't think it has anything to do with the story if people you battle end up saying "oh I was beaten bad" instead of "oh beaten by a kid." Those little things, otherwise they basically treat you as a teenager, someone who is around 16 to 18 except for the fact you know you're between 10 and 11 years old. I think Ophie is going into it as if age has a lot to do with the story of the games when in fact it doesn't really have much to do with it. All you have to be is a fresh trainer and you can go through the story in the exact same way, except it'd make a lot more sense.

I would argue that it does matter that the player characters are young. A key part of any Pokémon story, right from the start, is that enemies and allies do not initially take you seriously, which is a more believable reaction when confronted with a young person than confronted with an adult, even a young adult. And because they're minors, they're not tied to a job or expected to have one. (They also seem exempted from school, but that's a different matter--schools DO grant long exemptions from this in real life, but jobs, being a different set of relationships and money-related, won't.)

In addition, all main series Pokémon games are adventure stories. Part of the point is that the player character is seeing new sights, new Pokémon, and new people. As they take familiar urban settings, it would make more sense for a child or teenager to go adventuring.

If the character is an adult, the more believable scenario would be that they're going into a Pokémon-related line of work, which, if reflective of reality, has to be something that other people will pay money for them to do (even if said people are the government). Again, you don't really see present-day stories of adults wandering off and exploring the world, unless 1) that person's job is to wander off and explore the world (Indiana Jones, Jotaro Kujo), 2) that person is a fugitive (Andy Dufresne, The Phantom Stranger), or 3) they have the financial resources or backing to be without a paycheck or a permanent home for a long time and are in a spiritual predicament (Liz Roberts, Forrest Gump). In other words, whenever an adult becomes an adventurer and a wanderer in a modern-day setting (even with some light fantasy elements), they rarely do so on a whim the way Pokémon protagonists tend to do.

 

[Sαpphire]

I was going to post in here again yesterday, but I forgot it, so at this point... yeah!

Instead let me take a few seconds to gush about the Red and Blue redesigns. I'm not a genwunner and I'm no Red or Blue fanperson, but wow did they get these two right! I wouldn't have expected them in the game at all, especially since Gen 6 broke the long held tradition of having them in literally every Gen, but I couldn't be happier. They look more mature without compromising the designs overall, and Red especially looks older. Their teams are perfect and actually pretty difficult to take down - with four Lv. 60 Tapus, Lv. 57 Lunala, and Lv. 50 Magearna, I still got completely destroyed by Red.

Side note: the prominence of the color green in Blue's design was a little humorous. I suppose that's what English speaking regions get for swapping out his name years ago, when we didn't get Green Version.

 

[Wednesdayz]

I was caught off-guard when I found out that Prof. Kukui was married to that Dream Radar chick. Given the rainbow on Prof. Kukui's cap and the hand-on-hip thing, I had assumed that he, uh, played for the other team.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

I was going to post in here again yesterday, but I forgot it, so at this point... yeah!

Instead let me take a few seconds to gush about the Red and Blue redesigns. I'm not a genwunner and I'm no Red or Blue fanperson, but wow did they get these two right! I wouldn't have expected them in the game at all, especially since Gen 6 broke the long held tradition of having them in literally every Gen, but I couldn't be happier. They look more mature without compromising the designs overall, and Red especially looks older. Their teams are perfect and actually pretty difficult to take down - with four Lv. 60 Tapus, Lv. 57 Lunala, and Lv. 50 Magearna, I still got completely destroyed by Red.

Side note: the prominence of the color green in Blue's design was a little humorous. I suppose that's what English speaking regions get for swapping out his name years ago, when we didn't get Green Version.

I never really enjoyed Red and Blue that much, seeing Red is essentially a blank slate and Blue I just tend to find annoying, but I did like the aesthetic of their redesigns!

A quick thing about breaking traditions of returning characters: unless the remaining Gen 7 games prove me otherwise, they as of yet have broken the tradition of bringing back Steven. He had appeared in RSE, HGSS, B2W2 and ORAS until this point (with a mention in Platinum), and considering how Pokemon likes to keep traditions I'm surprised that he hasn't appeared in Gen 7 so far. Unless Stars/Sinnoh Remakes disprove me, I will probably feel a bit disappointed... (but only due to personal bias)

 

[Orphalesion]

, in my opinion, the more set in stone facts about the character there are, the more of an actual character they are, regardless of whether or not it has any direct bearings on the story.

That is correct in my opinion. This is pretty much the reason why games like the Elder Scrolls series (and most other West RPGs) simply don't appeal to me. You don't have a character in those games, you have a featureless "player avatar" that drifts through the game world like a ghost, almost completely disconnected from the events and people around them. Ew.

Pokemon, despite not giving your character a canon name, gender or appearance, has so far managed to avoid that impression to me. And the fact that your character is, by necessity, a kid going through a rite of passage (Pokemon Journey, Gym Challenge, Island Challenge, whatever) is probably the only reason it managed to avoid the "featureless player avatar" syndrome. Lillie, Hau, Kukui, everyone would have to react completely different if your character was, like, 24 as opposed to the kid/tween presented in the game.

Personally I'm in my 20s, and I'm perfectly fine with playing a kid in Pokemon, I don't seem to share the compulsion of so many to force myself into every character in every game I play for "immersion". Pokemon aside the games I manage to truly get invested and immersed in usually have defined characters, with preset names and characteristics. The "featureless player avatar" of Skyrim and co is actually likely to ruin any given game for me.

That being said in Pokemon I at least always want to have the option to change the chara's clothes, because so far almost every male main character in Pokemon has looked like an absolute tool (especially Brandon and Lucas) and I don't need to look at that for the entire game. But customization clothes don't necessarily detract from an established character (unless its a story where clothes are important, but that's unlikely in Pokemon)
The only aspect of the Sun/Moon chara I really didn't like was their inability to emote. Lillie waves hello? Stepford Smile! Tapu Koko appears? Stepford Smile! Lusamine unleashes the UBs, threatening to bring chaos and destruction over Alola? Stepford Smile! Seriously?

 

[Akashin]

The only aspect of the Sun/Moon chara I really didn't like was their inability to emote. Lillie waves hello? Stepford Smile! Tapu Koko appears? Stepford Smile! Lusamine unleashes the UBs, threatening to bring chaos and destruction over Alola? Stepford Smile! Seriously?

By the end of the game this really bothered me. I let it go at first because it was minor, but there were points (mostly what you mentioned already) where seeing you vacantly smiling was just too jarring to ignore.

On a related note, were they to do something about that in the future, I wouldn't be against the idea of having some sort of control over your character's default facial expression. That's perhaps edging a bit closer toward full character customization than they seem willing to go, though.

 

[Ophie]

I was caught off-guard when I found out that Prof. Kukui was married to that Dream Radar chick. Given the rainbow on Prof. Kukui's cap and the hand-on-hip thing, I had assumed that he, uh, played for the other team.

The rainbow (and his clothing's color scheme) is a reference to the University of Hawaii, which has a rainbow as its symbol.

By the end of the game this really bothered me. I let it go at first because it was minor, but there were points (mostly what you mentioned already) where seeing you vacantly smiling was just too jarring to ignore.

On a related note, were they to do something about that in the future, I wouldn't be against the idea of having some sort of control over your character's default facial expression. That's perhaps edging a bit closer toward full character customization than they seem willing to go, though.

I think it's fine as it is, with the default expression being a happy smile (albeit I would agree it's quite dissonant they're stuck with that expression). The mood of a main series Pokémon game is supposed to be light and happy for most of them, with the moody, explicitly darker stuff set for side games like the ones set in Orre.

 

[lemoncatpower]

The rainbow (and his clothing's color scheme) is a reference to the University of Hawaii, which has a rainbow as its symbol.



I think it's fine as it is, with the default expression being a happy smile (albeit I would agree it's quite dissonant they're stuck with that expression). The mood of a main series Pokémon game is supposed to be light and happy for most of them, with the moody, explicitly darker stuff set for side games like the ones set in Orre.

ive come to the realization pokemon will never explicity call any of their trainers gay although Hapu seems like a lesbian the way she was admiring Lillie and not being able to pay attention to it. OMG please make hapu a lesbian

edit: didn't know you could change your ball throwing style! now do I want girly, elegant, or left-handed?! also mallow is like 1049038420x cooler since she is left handed

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

ive come to the realization pokemon will never explicity call any of their trainers gay although Hapu seems like a lesbian the way she was admiring Lillie and not being able to pay attention to it. OMG please make hapu a lesbian

#LGBT+RepresentaionInStars

Seriously though we need more LGBT characters. I'd be so happy to see that.

 

[jginz1]

ive come to the realization pokemon will never explicity call any of their trainers gay although Hapu seems like a lesbian the way she was admiring Lillie and not being able to pay attention to it. OMG please make hapu a lesbian

edit: didn't know you could change your ball throwing style! now do I want girly, elegant, or left-handed?! also mallow is like 1049038420x cooler since she is left handed

I felt like Sun and Moon focused too much on love and relationships more than any other main series game. (Looker+Anabel, Kukui+Burnet)

 

[Orphalesion]

I felt like Sun and Moon focused too much on love and relationships more than any other main series game. (Looker+Anabel, Kukui+Burnet)

"too much"?

There was literally no focus at all on these two relationships. The extend of Kukui's and Burnet's relationship was literally "Hello, I'm the hot guy's beard wife, nice to meet you!"

You make it sound like there were scenes that focused specifically and on nothing more than those relationships, which is simply not true.

The only relationship that had plot dedicated to it was that between Lillie, Lusamine and Gladion.

If you ask me Sun and Moon were the first Pokemon games with which I, personally, had the feeling that the people you meet on your journey were proper characters rather than bosses and plot devices (that weird "entourage" that followed you around Kalos tried to be, but failed) and I hope that this is kept for future titles.

 

[Excitable Boy]

The main thing that stuck out to me was the extent the number of times they mentioned Olivia was single.

Glancing at the game script:

As a kahuna, I look after all the trial-goers who come to my island. They’re like my own children. Not that I’ve got any—I’ve never even gotten married.

This right here! This is it! I may live on my own, but sometimes even I need that familiar taste of home cooking

These jewels are amazing. They’ve got powers! Now I’ll finally be able to get a boyfriend!
Are you sure? Kahuna Olivia still doesn’t have a boyfriend...

It’s one of those Stufful toys that can move! They’re really popular among single women.

I dunno if this is supposed to be pushing the "strong, independent woman" angle or the "frustrated teenage player fantasy" angle, but it's a tad off-putting either way.

 

[xerxes]

I felt like Sun and Moon focused too much on love and relationships more than any other main series game. (Looker+Anabel, Kukui+Burnet)

So like... maybe a total of two scenes and five sentences? lol

 

[Ophie]

If you ask me Sun and Moon were the first Pokemon games with which I, personally, had the feeling that the people you meet on your journey were proper characters rather than bosses and plot devices (that weird "entourage" that followed you around Kalos tried to be, but failed) and I hope that this is kept for future titles.

Regarding Calem/Serena, Shauna, Tierno, and Trevor: They came across to me like the group of kids in a children's anime (I don't mean shonen, but younger than that), part of the endless parade of shows living in Doraemon's shadow without realizing that the group of kids in Doraemon are well-liked because they are three-dimensional and each have their own hopes, dreams, hobbies, likes and dislikes, family situation, and other things that make them feel believable and relatable as characters. (I am sure that there are a lot of people here who dislike Yo-kai Watch, but I feel this is one area where the Yo-kai Watch anime got it right: They made sure to give the supporting human characters believable depth.) The Kalos kids, however, do not. They are very flat as characters, partially due to how there are just so many of them that none of them can provide proper story time to make them sympathetic, partially because, except for Tierno, all of them are focused entirely on one thing, and partially because they were shoved out of the story completely when Team Flare emerged to the forefront.

The things GameFreak did right about Lillie, in particular, are that 1) Lillie is the only one who accompanies you, which means she serves as both someone who gets the amount of time needed for character development and her background, and 2) She remains relevant to the story all the way to the end. In addition, the large amount of spotlight given to Lillie allows her to be an anchor for other supporting characters who don't get a lot of screentime, like Gladion or Professor Kukui. Most of the supporting cast and villains have some relation to Lillie and are partially defined by her, so by getting to know Lillie as a person, you get to know the other characters as people too. (This is the reason behind why some people consider Lillie as the real protagonist of the game.)

I dunno if this is supposed to be pushing the "strong, independent woman" angle or the "frustrated teenage player fantasy" angle, but it's a tad off-putting either way.

Most likely, this facet of Olivia is a reflection of Japan's view on single women, at least among those in their middle ages or older: That they should go get married and have kids already. This has nothing to do with their declining birthrate, but just out of a tradition in which the man should protect the woman.

This is why a lot of anime and video games have scenes that would be odd to westerners like us, like where some ordinary high school boy says "I'll protect you!" to his superpowered girlfriend (as that is the boy's declaration to fulfill the role society expects of him) or unflattering, unsympathetic depictions of women who remain lesbian into adulthood (as the idea is that girls are only supposed to like other girls as an immature phase and move on to a heterosexual relationship as they grow older).

 

[Bguy7]

The main thing that stuck out to me was the extent the number of times they mentioned Olivia was single.

Glancing at the game script:

I dunno if this is supposed to be pushing the "strong, independent woman" angle or the "frustrated teenage player fantasy" angle, but it's a tad off-putting either way.

Yeah, that was confusing to me too. It was pretty much her only defining characteristic. I speculated while playing that maybe she has some sort of hidden crush on Kukui, but can't be with him since he's married, and that's why she's still single and emphasizes it so heavily. Nothing ever suggested that in the game though, so it's unlikely.

 

[Orphalesion]

The things GameFreak did right about Lillie, in particular, are that 1) Lillie is the only one who accompanies you, which means she serves as both someone who gets the amount of time needed for character development and her background, and 2) She remains relevant to the story all the way to the end. In addition, the large amount of spotlight given to Lillie allows her to be an anchor for other supporting characters who don't get a lot of screentime, like Gladion or Professor Kukui. Most of the supporting cast and villains have some relation to Lillie and are partially defined by her, so by getting to know Lillie as a person, you get to know the other characters as people too. (This is the reason behind why some people consider Lillie as the real protagonist of the game.)

I agree with that and at the same time it makes me optimistic and a bit worried about future Pokemon titles. Be it the supposed "Pokemon Stars" or an eventual Gen 8.

Optimistic because I hope they keep this new, more realized and integrated type of character that they have created with Lillie and the other Kalos folk.

Worried because I'm afraid that the next game will just have a "Lillie 2.0" and it will become a repetitive aspect of the game, like the "Poke Girls" in the anime.

 

[Ophie]

I agree with that and at the same time it makes me optimistic and a bit worried about future Pokemon titles. Be it the supposed "Pokemon Stars" or an eventual Gen 8.

Optimistic because I hope they keep this new, more realized and integrated type of character that they have created with Lillie and the other Kalos folk.

Worried because I'm afraid that the next game will just have a "Lillie 2.0" and it will become a repetitive aspect of the game, like the "Poke Girls" in the anime.

The main thing that allows Lillie to work as a character is the screentime. After that, you can write your character in any way you'd like. There should be nearly limitless ways to make a good character who isn't Lillie again.

 

[Taodragon]

The main thing that allows Lillie to work as a character is the screentime. After that, you can write your character in any way you'd like. There should be nearly limitless ways to make a good character who isn't Lillie again.

Pretty much, N is a good example of that as like Lillie he's a very popular human character in the franchise, but their stories aren't too similar to each others and their roles differ in how they were executed in their respective plots. What makes them both work is that their plots made sure to get you to understand and care about the character, and they did it in different ways that didn't come off as repetitive or repeating what came before them.

 

[Class Zero]

I honestly really didn't care for Lillie as a character/companion.. this may just be due to my age, but the overly-cheesy lines she was repeatedly spouting out were just a tad too cringe-inducing to have any real impact or stir any real feelings within me.. The fact that she wasn't a trainer also harmed my view of her, in that it wasn't a case of Me and Lillie as equals battling and struggling together, it was a lot moreso Me clearing the way for her or saving her arse on multiple occasions.. she really had very little usefulness.. The revelation at the end was needed much earlier, I feel.. Her taking an active role in battling her mother would have been a much preferred climax*.

*by which I mean literal battling, not just the bits of talking she did either side of me actually saving the day...

 

[RedJirachi]

Olivia's design is quite possible one of the most fanservicy designs in a kid's media I've ever seen