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General Character Discussion

Discussion in 'Pokémon Generation VI Discussion' started by bobandbill, Jun 8, 2014.

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  1. Akashin

    Akashin Well-Known Member

    We know that Aster was a loved one, so that narrows it down to a family member of some kind, or a significant other. And we know Aster is/was a girl, so...

    Ultimately, it's just more random guessing.
     
  2. Lorde

    Lorde Banned

    It seems like a stretch imo. I think the original Aster was either a family member of Zinnia's or a close friend of hers. We'll probably never know for sure though. :x
     
  3. diakyu

    diakyu Well-Known Member

    How young do people think Zinnia is? She easily looks the same age as Steven (who I think is 25) so her having a child who made it to at least 5 isn't much of a stretch imo.
     
  4. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    I'd agree with that. I'd even be willing to say she could be up to 30 (she'd just look young for her age).
     
  5. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    If I recall, there's a Grunt who comments about 'teenagers' while she's in Team Whoever's Base. So I'm guessing she's probably in her late teens judging by that. Since this is Pokemon, I can't see someone of that age having a child, especially one older than a toddler.
     
  6. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    That point roughly shapes my opinion of Zinnia's age and why I can't imagine her being older than 20 at most. I feel her attitude and appearance also fits late teens better and I haven't really been able to imagine the namesake of Aster being a literal daughter of hers. I don't think there's a way to know for sure though.

    Who knows, maybe Aster is the name of Zinnia's own mother and now she's pushed that name onto her Whismur for personal reasons? Or Aster could be the name of a younger friend that she treated like a daughter? Or the "daughter" bit could actually just mean nothing? Too many unknowns and assumptions to make but this applies to the "Aster is Zinnia's daughter" hypothesis too. And unless Zinnia makes another appearance I think it'll probably stay that way just for people to keep theorizing about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  7. Wulava

    Wulava Chuffed to bits Staff Member Moderator

    I'm probably missing something that has been mentioned in the game which I forgot but anyway...

    I'd like to think that Zinnia and Aster are siblings, and they have a pet Whismur. They probably lost their mother at a very young age so Zinnia took the role of being a mother to Aster. I know their grandma is still alive but I'd like to disregard that. Anyway, her younger sister, Aster, probably died at a young age too. In memory of her sister, she named the Whismur after her and took care of it just like how she took care of her sister.
     
  8. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    Personally, I've gone with the siblings theory as well. Aster was probably either Zinnia's twin or older sister. Going into fanfic territory here, but my idea is that Aster died in some kind of accident and that's partly why Zinnia has so much of a hero complex during the Delta Episode.
     
  9. WhyBuffet

    WhyBuffet Pokémon Breeder

    Aster having been Zinnia's little seems to make the most sense. Aster (the Whismur) gives the impression of needing to be watched over and attended to (akin to a little sister) as opposed to giving the impression of being on equal footing with Zinnia (akin to an outright twin).
     
  10. jyl5555

    jyl5555 New Member

    I'm confused. Was Aster Zinnia's little sister, who died? or .... WHY DOES SHE SAY SHE MISSES ASTER???
     
  11. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    We don't know exactly who Aster is, but judging from dialogue in the game, she's pretty likely to be someone Zinnia knew who died. Whether she was a sister, daughter, friend, girlfriend or something else entirely remains unknown.
     
  12. mia197

    mia197 Member


    Steven in the old versions, as well as Cynthia, to me are bland characters, just a presence in the game, with no exact personality. In the remake, we can know him better. At first Steven seems a little too perfect, but later he shows flaws, and makes mistakes in the episode Delta almost destroying another planet. And he is extremely frustrated with this, it is clear in the dialogue between him and Wallece, where he says to Steve "relax" because nobody knows everything.

    Also, if Steven knows the that his family company, wich he is heir, uses lifestream, he is not so well-intentioned, which doesnt mean he's a bad guy, but he is quite egotistic and hypocritical, like most rich people. If he didnt, he is also self-centered and hypocritical, cause he uses that energy almost ruining another existences. Although this case is a little more understandable because he was desperate.

    And Zinnia to me is far from being a Mary Sue, she is clearly insane, has a biased view of things and fails on her goal.

    About Cinthia we dont know much of her. If a remake of DPP are made, she will have a more defined personality and maybe a higher secondary role. But to me she passes a vibe of being inflexible and hard, something like "I see potential in you and will let you help me, but if you do something wrong I'll punch in the face.”

    A character who is a Gary stu is N. He is everything, the villain, the rival, the champion, the hero, and the guy who saves the protagonist in the second game. Yet N is fascinating and adorable. He is a cool Stu


    I saw nothing in Thabata dialogue, to me it looks like he is being ironic calling Steven "pretty boy". I've seen countless TV villains speaking it. It is something like "you are ****ed, its your end, pretty boy." It is irony with the cute hero. But if he is gay okay. About the female grunt flirting with Steven, it is not romance because he didnt flirt back, and the same thing with Archie and Matt, I saw nothing more in their relationship, they seem to be something like best friends forever. Lol.

    There is some indication that the rival has a crush on the protagonist, but nothing too emphasized. And during the main game, Steven seems flirting with the girl. Also, if you play, especially, with the boy, it seems that Zinnia lightly flirts with the protagonist. But in the case of Zinnia is more interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  13. Taodragon

    Taodragon Training Anaylst

    Conversations like this remind me why I dislike the use of Mary Sue nowadays...

    Like I said before, I'm not sure I'd call Zinnia a Mary Sue, but I still wouldn't say she was a greatly told character. She nearly causes a weather cataclysm by having the team of focus summon the Primals, and was perfectly aware of the damage it could cause before Rayquaza could come in. What's even worse about that situation is that she has a second plan that's much less destructive that she doesn't try first, she goes to a biggest extreme you could to get a result rather then the softer one. Also, unlike Archie/Maxie, who are always called out for it and show repentance, Zinnia is never really addressed for the issue. Steven does say something to her grandmother, but she just writes it off as necessary, she doesn't show any regret for the damage she could've caused to others, and no one really punishes her for that action, she gets off pretty freely for a character that nearly doomed Hoenn for a time.

    Her second plan is more sane, but she still is pretty harsh and brash in her actions. She steals from four different people, two of which are kids, and one of which is a guy who repents, and the former of the two gets roughed up by her. She also breaks the Link Cable, which while is understandable that she'd be wary about using it considering the potential consequence, is still pretty haphazard considering that was one of only two options that existed at the time. Also, she still never tries to properly explain her case before breaking it, and harshly calls out the team and Steven for trying to go with that option... Even though she did something similar before and unlike her, they had no clue that their actions could've had consequences. Plus, like before, the story doesn't really call her out for these actions, she still remains in the right, everything's resolved without her getting any punishment, and she continues her quest to see Aster again unhindered. The game kind of just sweeps those bad points under the rug and expects you to be OK with that, and it's not a good way to write a character.

    I'm not going to get too much into N, but I will say that you're overlooking some of the story points. One of the things that the story points out is that while he has a point, he is still in the wrong and reacting in an extreme way, and they call him out for that. Similarly, note that the action where he saves the protagonist of B2W2, it results in him falling into Ghetsis' trap and getting his dragon assimilated, so that's not exactly a perfect moment for him either.
     
  14. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    ^ This, to be honest, sums up a lot of my problems with Zinnia. The narrative seems to want to treat her as a character archetype similar to N - someone who is a bit antagonistic in nature, but at the same time sympathetic and who we are meant to agree with to an extent. It worked with N because he didn't really do anything bad other than oppose the player, and by the end of the game he was growing past his main character issue (closed-mindedness). That, and it felt like we knew him from the story.

    Zinnia, meanwhile, has actions similar to the villains. She steals stuff, and has some unspecified role in summoning the Primals. But the narrative still tries to treat her as being heroic. As such, she isn't given a need to learn from these actions, meaning that to an extent she gets less character development than the villains, who do learn their lesson and reform. The fact she's aware of what the Primals really do (unlike the two Teams) makes it worse. She then goes ahead and steals stuff, when there's really no need to do that if she perhaps told people there was a world ending apocalypse and hey, maybe you could lend her your Key Stone to help stop that. But she never bothers to communicate. Similarly, the issue with shattering the device may be less the fact that she broke it and more that she did so without even properly offering her own solution in the first place. Look, another Legendary tore up the place a little while ago, it's not like they won't believe you.

    It also feels like they really want to eke out sympathy through her backstory, but it doesn't work because we don't really understand what that backstory is. Okay, so someone named Aster who Zinnia knew presumably died, and so Zinnia couldn't become 'who she was meant to be'. But we don't know who Aster was, what happened to her and what Zinnia was meant to be. So it just comes across as muddled, since the exact effects on Zinnia are hard to gauge and it's a little hard to properly sympathise - was it an accident Zinnia could've prevented, or an illness she couldn't? Was she a family member or a friend? Was Zinnia actually meant to be Lorekeeper? All this could explain her personality, but it ultimately never does.

    In the end credits of the Delta Episode, they try and show that Zinnia has grown by not clinging onto her memories of Aster any more. Only, I don't think that is her fatal flaw. Do you know what I think it is? A hero complex. An idea that her own actions, no matter how reckless and potentially fatal they are, are always in the right, and that she is the one who saves the world. True, she ultimately doesn't, but there's little indication she really cares or has to learn from that. She's a character jammed into a role she doesn't fit in, not a Mary Sue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  15. R_N

    R_N Well-Known Member

    I think she does learn from her hero complex, though

    She kind of starts to breaks down when she realizes that for all her posturing she wasn't able to save the world and also almost ruined it until our meteorite shined

    I do agree she's a bit overly muddled mysterious and could have said/done more post-saving the world to show growth, though

    e: actually its kind of weird how hidden her past is. The game is chock full of flavor text for assorted npcs and I'd say we learn more about the powerless man, mr bonding and assorted mauville people than we do Zinnia
     
  16. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    She might break down temporarily, but there's nothing (from what I saw, anyway) that indicates permanent growth. Like she really understands what she did wrong. To me, it looked more like she was panicking because her plan might fail than because she realised that maybe she wasn't the hero she believed herself to be. True, she isn't chosen by Rayquaza, but she didn't seem to care about that in the ensuing battle.

    I do agree, though - she should've had a more substantial epiphany and they should've made her backstory a bit clearer. If Professor Cozmo can get an adequately-explained and interesting backstory, I can't see why Zinnia doesn't.
     
  17. mia197

    mia197 Member

    I agree that the term Gary Stu and Mary Sue is misused, that's exactly what I was debating. Some people mistakenly use it to justify the fact they dont like a major character, a powerful or a popular one.

    In any case, about Zinnia, in general I agree with you, although I dont think for example, she is just a poorly written character, for in her there are no contradictions, cause it’s implied that she is not very sane, and this fact justify some nonsensical attitudes. Not the brightest output, but at least makes sense.

    The problem is that she is badly exploited, and many people dont like her because she's a new character and played an important role. The fact that bothers most is that she is a woman that came out of nowhere, is strong and tries to save the world. But she fails, and the hero at the end turns out being Brendan / May.

    They could have used some character who has appeared earlier in Hoenn, maybe a gym leader, another secondary character, whatever. It didnt need another completely new character, but either way, it's good to look at her, Zinnia is pretty and has a nice design Lol


    As far as I know, N is still a Gary Stu, you see, he has super powers in a series where almost no one has, is extremely strong, is a hero, is handsome, is the villain, is just about everything. And one of the differences between N and Zinnia, as already you said before, is that we get used to N and we learn about him during the games, and we and we see his development. N is a charismatic and well-written character. The fact that someone fails, or die in the end does not mean isnt a Stu. Some people refer to the term Stu as if it were some kind of offense. Often this element makes a boring story, but not always.


    Yeah, I also realized that they wanted to make her a likable character, but she does so many things wrong and tries to impose her will for reasons that most of the plot we dont know why, that is hard to care about her.
     
  18. Taodragon

    Taodragon Training Anaylst

    I disagree, as Chibi_Muffin said, she's supposed to be an anti-hero character that we sympathize with, and yet she's not effective in that role. She ends up being a character whose actions are on par with the villains without any of the sympathy or regret for what she's done, so she doesn't become relatable or likable. Additionally, the fact that her backstory fails to get us to really sympathize with her due to it trying to keep her overly mysterious is another fault of the writing as it ends up being completely underdeveloped. If the character isn't effective in the role, then I can't say that they're a well handled character.

    Also, while I do understand the idea that she's not completely sane, that doesn't necessarily means she should be let off the hook for her more destructive actions. I mean, if someone caused a cataclysmic event that's even close to the level she did in most stories, they'd be treated as a villain regardless of their sanity. A tragic villain maybe, but still a villain that has to be stopped or shown the error of their ways, neither of which really happens with Zinnia, who's still placed in the right and is allowed to be off the hook with no repercussions.

    As for not needing a new character, I think she could've worked with more time and attention, I think she could've been more effective if we saw her more and had her motives better fleshed out.

    I think you'd have a hard time finding not very handsome/beautiful main characters in Pokémon, or media in general. :p

    Understanding the feelings of Pokémon is not really a superpower, and it's not unique to him either. Iris is supposed to "understand the hearts of dragons" for instance, and we've had those feelings checkers that tell you how your Pokémon feels about you, and the footstep guy that can tell you about each Pokémon's adventures just by their footsteps. So that ability (or at least, something similar) has been around for a while, though he is the first to use it for a goal in the plot.

    I'm not sure where you're getting that, he's not shown to be any stronger then the average human (if he's shown to be strong at all).

    While he makes the transition to a more heroic character (which again, is not that unique, Team Aqua/Magma for instance also had good intentions and repent for their more villainous actions), he's not both at once. He starts as a villain that has good intentions, but has extremes that are addressed, which allows for him to make that transition.

    True, but you tried to use that example as proof that he is, yet the fact that the action has more negative consequences (that is, allowing Ghetsis access to the incomplete power of the Original Dragon) then positives goes against that point.

    Never said that it did, though it doesn't help that people throw it around so much that it's lost its meaning and effect, but there are examples where they work. However, that doesn't mean that every character that has some idealized traits are Mary Sues/Gary Stus, which is why I'm not sure I'd really count N as one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  19. Chibi_Muffin

    Chibi_Muffin Smart Cookie

    N's not a Mary Sue (or whichever male counterpart you want to speak of) because the story and world don't warp around him to fit his needs. The story doesn't go out of its way to show that he's right (much the opposite, in fact), and not all the characters who oppose him are portrayed as being in the wrong or as bad guys. He is not invincible (which is why failing does matter - the fact that his original dream isn't realised shows that the narrative isn't handing him things on a silver platter, which is integral to being a Mary Sue) and ultimately he is forced to grow as a character as a result of the story itself. For my personal definition, anyway, I don't see Mary Sues having that much personality in general, let alone meaningful character development. Magic powers don't matter in this since they do not serve to overpower him, only provide crediblity to his views and explain his personality. Someone cannot be well written and be a Mary Sue at the same time, because being a Mary Sue is a result of poor writing of characters and plot.

    The same goes with Zinnia, by the way - as much as she may bother me, the story does at least acknowledge some of her faults, and there is a risk she may fail, and the likes of Steven who do oppose her again aren't treated as villainous because of it (in fact, I'd hesitate to call any Pokemon games character a Sue - the nature of the game means nobody is invincible nor given too easy of a time). My issue, remember, isn't that she came out of nowhere and tried to save the world - it's that ultimately, Zinnia doesn't feel any different at the end of the Delta Episode to when we meet her at the start, even though her abrasive personality and questionable actions call for development and her mysterious backstory calls for at least some answers. Since I felt like the likes of the rivals and villains were handled brilliantly in this game (considering I found them to be rather forgettable in the original 'Sapphire'), having the new, special character be not up to scratch was a disappointment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  20. bigbro223

    bigbro223 Well-Known Member

    I have a quick question about Zinnia's motives. When was it implied that the meteor would go into another dimension? Sure, it might have been possible, but I didn't remember reading any dialogue that said it may have gone there. I always imagined it would just go somewhere else in space such as another solar system.

    Also an unrelated question: If Devon used Infinity Energy, the same energy AZ used 3,000 years ago, where did their newer energy come from? Leftovers from AZ's machine? An artificial copy? Did they do some... experiments?
     
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