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General Character Discussion

Discussion in 'Pokémon Generation VI Discussion' started by bobandbill, Jun 8, 2014.

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  1. Viola

    Viola Meteor ready!

    That's debatable. Pokemon isn't exactly known for having the best characterisation, but she's easily one of the most complex. Whatever's going on with Aster seems like it gives plenty reason for her to be a jerk and she doesn't explain her motives as she's the one burdened with the task of stopping the meteor and saving the world (or letting it be destroyed to save others).

    I'll also point out that Gollum's backstory and motives weren't explained all at once either, they were only revealed in later books.
  2. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria ☆~Shiny hunter▢~

    At least Rayquaza + the player character took the task of destroying the meteorite, by smashing right through it.
  3. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    She refused to explain what was going on until you reach the Sky Pillar for the sake of having a conflict and had no reason to be condescending towards Steven. Had she tried to tell people the situation and got snubbed I would have accepted the jerkasssry but instead she decided that being mean was the only option.

    The problem with Aster is that we are barely given anything about him/her and it's just a ploy for the writers to garner sympathy for Zinnia: It didn't really work for me or a lot of other people.
  4. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria ☆~Shiny hunter▢~

    I feel that it doesn't make sense when a Trainer who is supposed to battle with strong Pokémon has a weak Pokémon as his/her sidekick.
  5. Akashin

    Akashin Well-Known Member

    ...Why? Aster isn't a battling sidekick, so why does it matter?

    Aster is her sidekick, (Mega) Salamence is her ace. I don't see what the problem is.
  6. dirkac

    dirkac I smash your Boxes.

    I'm sorry but this makes no sense.
    Is Zinnia not allowed to have more than just strong Pokémon?
    Maybe she just doesn't let Aster battle because it doesn't want to battle or whatever reason. She has plenty orher strong Pokémon, she doesn't need everything she associated with to be uber powerful.
  7. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    She seems to still be suffering from the recent loss of someone close to her (probably her baby daughter), and she is the Lorekeeper, and one of the last of her people, having the stress of saving not only her world, but a parallel world, put on her shoulders alone. I think that's some pretty good reasons.
  8. Akashin

    Akashin Well-Known Member

    Quite a few of Zinnia's characteristics weren't well explained, but wasn't her beef with Steven that he was the heir of the company responsible for Infinity Energy, and that he seemed ready to use it himself?
  9. Taodragon

    Taodragon Training Anaylst

    Considering her actions were on par with the villains (stealing key stones, summoning cataclysmic abominations of nature, etc.), her state of mind doesn't completely excuse her actions. Cyrus had a terrible childhood, but we don't let him off the hook for nearly recreating the world without spirit, so I don't see why the same should be done with someone who carelessly put the world in danger just because she may've been under stress.

    It's been a while, so I may be forgetting some bits, but I don't remember her saying anything about him being the heir of the company. However, she did criticize the scientists and Steven for using that energy as she felt that they would repeat the same mistakes of the Ultimate Weapon by moving the asteroid into another dimension that may be unprepared for it. She may not be wrong in that sense, but it is quite hypocritical considering she did the exact thing with Primal Groudon/Kyogre (doing something disastrous for a supposed well meaning reason) and was quite aware of the consequences unlike Steven, the scientists or Team Aqua/Magma.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  10. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Why do people think she had a daughter? She looks like she's eighteen and talked about Aster like she knew her for quite a long time.
  11. Akashin

    Akashin Well-Known Member

    No, I think you're right. I'm relying on Bulbapedia quotes because I don't trust my memory nearly enough to go without, and I glossed over and misread one of her lines.

    And I wasn't defending her in the slightest. Just pointing out that she did have a reason, shoddy and hypocritical as it was.
  12. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    But she was actually doing it to try to save the world. She may have not been doing it right, but unlike Cyrus or Team Aqua/Magma, she didn't have actually evil intentions. Not saying what she did was right, but it wasn't evil either.

    Because she directly called Aster the Pokemon her daughter at one point, and it seemed to serve as a proxy for the real Aster. If Aster the person wasn't her daughter, I doubt she would call Aster the Whismer her daughter, because to her crazed mind, they are the same person. Also, she never directly infers that she knew Aster the person for a long time, only that she meant a lot to her. Even if she lost the daughter in childbirth, being a mother instantly gives her an unbreakable bond, one that might have to be built up over time with anyone else. As for her age, I feel like she could easily be anywhere up to 25. Even if she's 20 (which is the age I think she is), she could have had a baby when she was 19, and it died soon after or during childbirth.
  13. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Calling her a daughter doesn't necessarily mean anything. I would assume that a trainer with a longstanding and close bond with their Pokemon would consider them something akin to a son or daughter, especially if they never use them to fight.

    So we're assuming she's completely insane now? She definitely did some stupid and questionable things, but she didn't come across as insane bar her battle intro animation.

    She mentioned something about Aster wanting something or other and spending time with her. You can't spend time with something that died in childbirth or know what it wanted if it didn't grow up. If she did have a child she still looks way to young to have a kid that would be old enough to talk and say what they wanted in life. It's implied she had Aster the Whismur for quite some time, too.

    Think about the company that owns these games: Nintendo. While they occasionally have dark stuff, they don't go so far as to have anything remotely close to any implication of an underage or teenage mother that lost a kid in childbirth. There are way too many unfortunate implications and dark undertones associated with that for them to even remotely consider having that as a plot point or character motivation.
  14. Taodragon

    Taodragon Training Anaylst

    I wasn't trying to make it sound like you were defending her and I apologize if it came out that way, I was just trying to speak generally about the character.

    Cyrus you're right, but the whole entire goal of Magma/Aqua was for the greater benefit of a group. Magma wanted more land for human expansion whereas Aqua wanted more sea for Pokémon, both weren't doing it out of malice or ill intent, they wanted a positive outcome that didn't pan out. Really, the differences between them and Zinnia is that the teams didn't know the damage they could cause with the legendary and repented for those actions. Zinnia knew exactly what they were capable of and still did it, nearly dooming the region (and maybe even farther) to a destructive weather phenomenon, despite the fact that she had a second plan that was far less destructive in the long run (which was just gathering Key Stones). Also, she never repents for what she did, no character directly calls her out to her face (Steven does to her Grandmother, who handwaves it off), the story never portrays her as in the wrong, and she suffers no repercussions for her negative actions.

    So, while she may've been committing these actions out of a good reason, that doesn't excuse the damage she causes in her wake. Nearly starting a cataclysmic event, stealing key stones from children without bothering to explain herrself, and destroying the only other option that remained if the Rayquaza plan failed (which it nearly did) does put her in a negative light. She really does more harm then good in her endeavor, and if the player wasn't there to clean up her mess, Hoenn would've been the sight of an apocalyptic disaster in the best case scenario.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  15. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria ☆~Shiny hunter▢~

    I don't get the point, to me, it seems stupid to use weak Pokémon as your sidekick when you've got stronger Pokémon in your team. Maybe Aster has something useful to Zinnia. Zinnia is a Draconid. Draconids use Dragon types so I don't really get it why Zinnia has a Whismur as her sidekick.
  16. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    The Whismur is a Replacement Goldfish for Aster. Who Aster was and their exact relationship with Zinnia remains to be seen.
  17. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    As you said yourself in a later post, Aster was a "replacement goldfish" for someone she lost. She spoke to Aster as if it where actually her daughter, not just a pet she has affection for. If Aster really was a "replacement goldfish" why would Zinnia call it her daughter if the one she's replacing wasn't? Aster was a proxy for the original.

    Between her battle animation, treating Aster like a human, and her questionable methods of saving the world, I think that she's is certainly mentally unstable (I explained that more in depth in my original post about her).

    I can't really really argue with what you said about Zinnia saying the original Aster wanted something, because I don't remember that dialogue well enough. If you are right though, like I said before, Zinnia really could be anywhere as old as 25 (or older, since it can be impossible to ID ages in a game like this). I just mentioned death in childbirth because it confirmed closest to the theory that she's 18, which you seemed to support.

    As for Nintendo's stance, as I said previously, death in childbirth and underage pregnancies don't even have to be a factor here. But even if they are, they are so well concealed and hidden, that it's not that big of a deal. This concealment so that the general public doesn't know exactly what's happening is the reason that we're even having this debate to begin with.

    To be completely honest, I had forgotten entirely that Zinnia helped Team Aqua/Magma, I thought we just talking about the Link Cable destruction and Rayquaza.

    As far as the Link Cable thing goes though, that lands under the moralistic debate of "is it right to destroy another to save one's self?" Different people will give different answers. Obviously Zinnia believed that no one had any right to destroy another, so she took action.
  18. Alexander18

    Alexander18 Banned

    I like the fact that Drake is found on the boat towards Slateport/Lilycove. I thought him using Mega Salamence was pretty awesome. I like the Aarune as well and I enjoy battling him at Fortress City.
  19. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    Since Drake using Mega Evolution was brought up, I think I'll just mention one thing that annoys me. The Elite Four all use Mega Evolution, but unlike anyone else who uses it, they don't have their own dedicated Mega Evolution Item, such as the Mega Ring. When they Mega Evolve, all it says is "(insert Pokemon's name here) is reacting to (insert Elite Four's name here) Key Stone." It's very cookie-cutter and boring. Would it really have been that hard to come up with a name for each of their items?
  20. Mega Altaria

    Mega Altaria ☆~Shiny hunter▢~

    The thing is that the Hoenn E4 in ORAS do not appear to possess a Key Stone.
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