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General Chat Thread - Come to #spp-misc on Discord! https://discord.gg/3u9nKEa

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Polls' started by Kreis, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. Forbidden Snowflake

    Forbidden Snowflake take it out on me

    Does anyone know why my iPhone's shuffle mode of music (on its library) resets its playlist and quits from it without me doing so? then I have to press the music icon again and reshuffle it
  2. GrizzlyB

    GrizzlyB Confused and Dazed

    Wow, we finally got to the next page since the last time I posted... five months ago. I would say, "Never change, SPPf!" but, well, that doesn't seem necessary.

    I kid, but didn't the new Pokemon games just come out? Would've thought that would bring people in droves but evidently the internet isn't what it used to be. btw, does anybody wanna chat on MSN Messenger? For some reason I'm not getting any replies from the people I know.

    Also, why did Photobucket put those horrendous watermarks over everything? Now my sig is ruined! I have a copy saved so it's not a big deal, but I don't know what image hosting service is preferred by SPPfers, so I don't want to upload it to some lame site by accident. halp
  3. emeraldellie

    emeraldellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    everyone moved onto discord thats why
  4. Opassa

    Opassa Tunne susi rakasta

    forums for life

  5. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    Misc Discord is fun, general Sppf Discord has gotten a lot better after the initial influx of bad people.
  6. WishIhadaManafi5

    WishIhadaManafi5 Don't mess with the bull. You'll get the horns. Staff Member Moderator

    They want people to pay for using it. So basically any image that's posted on a site using a free account is being watermarked and blurred. I use Imgur myself and it seems to work well enough.
  7. Jb

    Jb Tsun in the streets

    Eh, I wouldn't say everyone moved to misc discord, i joined a few months ago and i just checked and it doesnt really seem that active there. Maybe there's a hidden channel in the server only certain people can use but idk. Forums did take a noise dive tho, I really only use Gamefaqs since each forum there is game focused on a certain game so it's not hoping that some pokemon fans are interested in ur interest, i also use Reddit

    On more of a "life" update, I somehow made a discord that has over 1k users. It is a easier way to get in contact than forums but kinda seems more hollow but whatever.
  8. GrizzlyB

    GrizzlyB Confused and Dazed

    So, this is quite an old post, obviously, but I recently started playing Trails of Cold Steel III, which originally spawned this conversation, and I was hitting some localization issues, and remembered this conversation from back when. And when I saw this post I had to say -- SPOT ON ADMIRAL YOU ARE A GODDAMN GENIUS. I was trying to poke around some boards to see if other people were as rankled with it as I, but it's a plot-heavy game and spoilers abound (like I said, I've only just started), so I don't want to dig too deep and the discussions that I did find mostly immediately broke down into firestorms. But this sums it up perfectly: the translation itself is fine, but the localization is lacking, to put it kindly. I don't pay much attention to what companies work on the games that I've played, so even if NISA usually does fine work (or even if it's usually much worse and this is the best thing they've ever put out), what follows is my impression of their localization of Trails of Cold Steel III alone.

    There are numerous typos, both in dialogue and in items/menus which affect gameplay, which is pretty bad (I/II didn't have any item/menu fubars that I know of, and 10 hours into III has at least doubled the total number of typos in I/II put together), which is... well, it's bad, but if they put out a patch or something, at least they're objective errors that can possibly be fixed -- though I have no idea if there's any plans for that or if it's even common to do so. But the thing that really chaps my hide is just the general tenor of the language from the dialogue. It's definitely the difference between translation and localization, because while I haven't seen any text where I'm just like, "... okay, what the **** is this supposed to say?" the writing is stunted and choppy and doesn't feel believable from the characters it's coming from.

    Call it a weakness, but I'm the type of player who has to go around and talk to every NPC and look through every nook before I move on. (I think that the main advantage games have over other forms of fiction is that you can control what's going on and explore the world yourself -- so not doing so is somewhat of a waste.) Some people claim that XSEED, who localized I and II went out of their way to fabricate dialogue and tics for NPCs and that it wasn't in the original games... but I don't think that's true. Even if it is, NISA had a magnificent template to start from, and from I've seen so far, they've mostly pissed on it. Like, I don't know what they were called in Japanese, but in I/II there were titles held by nobles in a hierarchy that went Baron < Viscount < Count < Marquis < Duke. I've run into a marquis and a count, so those are probably the same, but I've also run into several "Sir"s and some "Lord"s, and multiple "Lady"s who are clearly of different standings. I'm speculating that the new order would be Sir < Lord < Count < Marquis < Duke, but that's stupid because a huge part of the backstory in the country where the games take place is that the nobility are the ruling class who inherit their titles -- but Sir is a given title, which COMPLETELY undermines that premise. So we're seeing unforced errors when they could have easily checked the script from the first two games and avoided a haphazard and wrong term like Sir. "Lady" is also stupid because it's used for the wives of Sirs (where I suppose Lady isn't totally off-base), Counts (... Countess?), and somebody used it to address the princess as Lady Alfin (aptly called 'Princess Alfin' in the earlier games, and I know they called her hime-sama in Japanese. 'Lady' seems awfully flippant for a society that structures itself around noble hierarchies).

    The titles are stupid because it would have been so easy to be consistent with the earlier games (which also used terms that make much more sense for the setting), but the biggest problem is that, as soon as I strayed away from the main story and started talking to NPCs, the dialogue fell completely flat. Like I said, the setting is in a country where nobles hold most of the wealth and the power and prestige, and a lot of them like to flaunt it. So when I run into a foppish gentleman named "Lord Stanley" who says his wife is unwell, does he use any kind of high-speak that you wouldn't expect to hear out of the common rabble? No, his dialogue is, "My wife often gets sick. Sometimes, it can be really bad. The maids at my house work really hard." Aside from the overuse of really (which I've noticed from a number of other nearby NPCs)(and funnily enough, I've been reading Stephen King's On Writing where he rails against adverbs and says to avoid them as much as possible -- dialogue can be a different matter, but I feel like it crops up here because of crappy copywriting rather than because of the character), this guy just doesn't sound like a Lord Stanley. How about the pompously-named Louvre, who runs some kind of art gallery and wants to boast to the party about the culture of the noble city of Saint-Arkh? "It really makes me happy to see young people here. Saint-Arkh is known as the 'Capital of Art' thanks to their art and music. We have tons of nice products here. As an art vendor, I like to think I have a good eye for art. Now, please take a look." If you speak to him again, "Saint-Arkh has produced many famous artists. We have tons of good products here. Now, please take a closer look." So, Mr. Fancy Art Vendor doesn't use any adjectives besides 'good' and 'nice'. Okay. There's another clothing vendor at a high-end boutique (all of these character are in the same city) who says, "Clothing from [city] is durable and feels very nice to the touch. If you touch it, you will notice the quality right away. Please take a closer look at them." I know some salesmen prefer the high-pressure approach, but from the sound of it, it's not only the cloth that he wants us to 'touch'.

    Anyway, I'm just disappointed after looking forward to the game for so long. I've heard that XSEED dumped most of the people who did the first two games, so there's nothing to be done about that, but is this really acceptable for a script? Couldn't another company have done better? Couldn't NISA have done better? (I mean honestly, to produce strings of words as bad as some of what I've seen, you either have to try hard or not try even a little bit.) I don't play as many games as I used to, and I'm probably a lot more critical than I used to be, but -- even putting comparisons to the first two games' localizations aside -- this is simply bad writing. Many of the NISA defenders from the discussions that I have read act like this bullplop is just par for the course, which I dunno about -- I've still played enough games that I think I'd have noticed if any of them read as jilted and stupid as this one (granted, after the first two games, it is more noticeable when a shopkeep who caters to nobility sounds like a creepy moron). They also act like we should be grateful to get any kind of localization at all which... well, that may well be right. I don't doubt that the translations and whatnot are accurate, but it feels like they left it at that. And even if I should be happy overall that it did get localized, I still get pissed-off when I'm exposed to crap.

    tl;dr - Got Trails of Cold Steel III. NISA bad.

    Yeah, I think my biggest issue with bigger sites like Discord/Reddit/Twitter or whatever is that they're much more impersonal than a community like this (or what SPPf used to be, at least), where you have people in the same place over longer times, as opposed to users either being transient or so numerous that you're usually interacting with new people all the time. I do find it concerning, that the further we get into the internet age, the less platform diversity there seems to be. The most appealing thing about the internet, in principle, should probably be that it's so easy to visit/use any site or service that's available, but people still congregate overwhelmingly to only a few websites, who can (at least in theory) control a disproportionate amount of what we're exposed to.
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  9. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    Good timing that this comes up now because I'm scripting a YouTube video about localization which I hope to have out early January, for similar reasons of "people on the internet don't seem to get what all this entails..." as detailed in above post.

    So, yeah, re: Cold Steel III, going by what you're saying, that is some remarkably jank-ass script assembly where it sounds like... good lord, I don't really know what to actually say here. I don't think this can be pinned down to one issue. I'd guess that the project was split into multiple small teams for translation and the end result was duct taped together at the last minute with nobody caring? Tonal issues are definitely a thing that can happen as a result of that if they aren't in the original script (which I wouldn't know, not knowing anything about the game myself). And indeed, sometimes some parts of scripts are altered in the localization to add character, often because without, the character feels dry (comedy tends to translate very poorly, especially if it's wordplay-related. You're a man of taste and I think you mentioned Gintama eons ago, so I suspect you know that Gintama is like that). But yeah, there's definitely an issue here with not conforming to the previous world-building. There are very few times when you'd want to do this, mostly if you goof the translation up really bad. Like, if... hmm. I'm realizing a lot of games I play don't have the most direct sequels. But let's say you mistranslated Liquid Snake's name as "Sea Serpent" or something. You goddamn well should go back to Liquid Snake. The changing of titles in this case is incredibly confusing. Like, I get that "Viscount" is a little obscure, but that's not even a great excuse. It produces a serious disconnect here. Especially because "Sir" and "Lord" are very nonspecific (and "viscount" is indeed between "baron" and "count"). That "calling the princess 'Lady'" thing absolutely sounds like a case where a word was not interpreted correctly at all. You know, SUPER rookie mistake. Especially considering all the other stuff...

    But basically? This is what a lot of people say they want when they complain about Woolsey-esque localization. I highly doubt they actually want it, obviously, they just don't know better.

    anyway I can't believe I've been here for fifteen goddamn years, going on 16
  10. GrizzlyB

    GrizzlyB Confused and Dazed

    Continuing on from where I saw all of this dire dialogue, it did get better, so I'm inclined to go with the "patchwork teams" explanation. Even at its best it's a bit flatter than the prequels, but there's a noticeable difference between main story writing (especially if it's accompanied by voice acting) and the NPC-type stuff I sampled above. I was worried because it had been... acceptable... up to that point and suddenly fell off a cliff so I was worried that it would be that way for the remainder of the game, but I think it's safe to say now that it's up and down. There's other things that point to this, like someone calling the princess "Lady [name]" but on a scene where she spoke her dialogue box was labeled "Princess [name]" unlike a great number of other characters who were labeled "Lady [name]" (I guess it's possible the character misspoke and they translated it correctly... but I really doubt it considering the setting and the specific character). Also there was a part where a character repeated something he'd been told earlier (in quotation marks), but it was different from what the original quote said (again, possible he repeated it wrong, but it seems more like they just translated the line two different ways). It's a long game, with a lot of text, so I get that it's difficult to keep track of all this stuff, but it doesn't mean they didn't do a bad job. Like, I'm no expert in Japanese, but I'm pretty sure they have a lot of different ways of saying things that are different but would get translated to English the same way (pronouns, for instance). So lines like I cited above, with the noble saying his wife's illness, "... can be really bad," while I don't doubt its meaning is accurate, I'd also bet he originally said it in some fancy noble-speak and not in a way that sounds like a high school sophomore describing anything. It lacks nuance, even if it's accurate. So I feel like that's when it's appropriate to add dialogue in English, even if it wasn't originally there, because Japanese can imply things without actually stating it (like your wordplay example, just a bit different application).

    As for the whole "Lord" or "Sir" or "Lady" thing, I'm pretty sure they're doing it for characters called "-sama" (all of them come from the speaker labels on dialogue boxes, so I haven't seen them used in context -- and I still haven't figured out the difference between Lord and Sir). But even accounting for the discrepancy with the prior localizations (which, as you said, is stupid to ignore in the first place), it leads to weird lines like servants calling the children of the noble houses they serve, "Sir [child]" -- same thing with some characters being called "Mr./Mrs. [first name]". I guess this goes with the Woolsey thing, because I'm sure most of these things are in the original script, but don't translate cleanly to English. I dunno -- for anime, I usually prefer the more literal subs, but that's different because you're also hearing the original lines so I prefer them to match up (and I've watched enough that if I hear a word I've heard before that has kind of an in-between meaning -- say, 'nakama', but it's translated as 'friends' -- I can mentally note that, well, it kind of means what the sub says but also kind of has another meaning. But you can't do that without hearing the original, so in a video game where that's not an option, how it's crafted in English is paramount). This game is also pretty Western-styled, with most of the main characters calling each other by their given names and only a couple using honorifics with those (and most minor characters aren't given family names), so I feel like a lot of their use in the original Japanese is extraneous to the setting in the first place. I definitely think it's possible to over-localize things, to the point where you can take out nuances that were there in Japanese and replace them with nothing (like how honorifics can say something about the relationship between characters), but I feel like it's the opposite here. So whether to Woolsey or not to Woolsey depends on the original material, I think.

    Also, I haven't watched Gintama yet, because I was waiting for the manga to finish, which happened a few months ago, but the last anime aired over a year ago. So it's higher up on my list now that the work is finished, but I was planning on watching the anime so I'm going to hold out a bit longer to see if I can't watch the whole thing (since if I hit the end I would probably just switch over to the manga). Also also, 15 years is a long time (I'm at 12 I guess, but I remember when 2004/05 members seemed to have been here a lifetime longer than me), but I do like seeing members who've been around since like the 90s or whatever on other forums. It's, like, commitment or something.

    Also also also, unrelated to anything else, I just saw that JOHN FRUSCIANTE IS RE-JOINING THE RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS!!! How cool is that? Hope they release some new albums and don't just tour with old material or whatever.

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