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General Discussion & Speculation Thread

JohnLynch

Well-Known Member
Just to be clear: whether the game(s) are good is a completely different argument to whether the franchise needs saving, is failing or could be in a "better position".

Well, Gen 6 didn’t give us any third version whatsoever and now we got a pair of them. Rather than looking this as a step back it’s more of just a new take on the third version (though, essentially a step forward from last gen haha). While not to everyone’s taste, still a worthwhile entry in the series. Who knows what patterns will be kept and/or broken in the future.
Game Freak are fairly consistent in using the excuse "we're trying to be different" as a justification for what they do. We've had:
* A sequel
* No third game
* Alternate dimension (and to be fair, it looks like it actually is a critical part of the plot for USUM).

Who knows what we'll get. I expect it will depend on sales of USUM.
 

Hoennking

Well-Known Member
Sulfiran makes sense. He talking about the qualitu not sales. Kids will eat up whatever **** game freak makes.

Changing whole attitude because of mobile. It's stupid. Anyhow it's back and forth discussion but I feel like some people are twisting words to fit there narrative
 

Arcanineblitz

Well-Known Member
Well, Gen 6 didn’t give us any third version whatsoever and now we got a pair of them. Rather than looking this as a step back it’s more of just a new take on the third version (though, essentially a step forward from last gen haha). While not to everyone’s taste, still a worthwhile entry in the series. Who knows what patterns will be kept and/or broken in the future.
True! and i think fans love that game freak consistantly puts out really good games most of the concern is from people who feel it can be better theres no need to get hyper defensive about it
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
characters that talk to you for maybe 10 minutes, or the whole game and still be extremely underdeveloped or forced"

Actually in my opinion the character and story writing in Sun and Moon (while still pretty bad when compared to many other RPGs) were the best this series ever had, alongside some badly needed world building (Trial Captains have more purpose to their existence than those gym leaders that apparently sit around their gyms all day). Except Hau, maybe, I don't really know which characters in S/M felt underdeveloped or forced. The "rival posse" in X/Y was very bad, but that was actually a failed experiment to bring more character to the NPCs in Pokemon. And the further back you go in the generations the more forced, underdeveloped, wooden and pointless the characters and plot become. A lot of the original/earlier NPCs are only popular because of the personalities the anime provided for them.
The story in Pokemon has always been a poorly disguised excuse plot, though they have gotten better at hiding that in the more recent generations. Lillie was a fully realized character, Kukui was a professor who does more than standing around in his lab, the trial captains and kahunas had aspirations and interests that weren't primarily tied to their existence as trial captains and were encountered outside of their trial grounds frequently.

There are a lot of elements that kind of hamper the story telling in Pokemon (the silent player-avatar, the static gym/trial->E4 structure, the evil team/box legendary formula) but those are present since early on not recent.

To me it seems pretty clear that Gamefreak tries to put more story and character into Pokemon, but might not be that successful (yet) due to a number of reasons.

No post game content

Imho they should focus on giving us a proper "game" before they start with the "post game"What are the meatier "post games" in Pokemon anyway? Pretty much just some legendary hunting and a battle facility. Woooo... Riveting...

stream rolling through the story

I will say that these games feel shorter than when I was a little kid. But I dunno how much of that is subjective. Sometimes when I return to other games I've played as a young child, I notice that I only take half the in-game time (or less) than I needed as a kid and what felt like huge story sections to my young mind are really just short episodes. It's the same with difficulty.

In addition I have the suspicion that a lot of the supposed "length" and "difficulty" of Red and Blue was really just bad game design. Sure, it took rather long and was rather difficult to get to Cinnabar Island in R/B/Y, but was it the enjoyable kind of length and difficulty? Nope, it was a boring, grueling chore during which you fought Tentacool after Tentacool every two steps. Same with the caves and dungeons.
The often celebrated second half of Gold/Silver was empty as far as plot goes, even when compared to R/B, badly balanced and had you pointlessly roam around in a version of Kanto that was so stripped down that it felt like the region had undergone a horrible economic, cultural and environmental decline.

Now there are some legitimate complains as far as the difficulty goes (Missing difficulty setting, a lot of important trainers lack full teams) but the older games had a lot of "fake difficulty/longevity".

Of course all those things still should improve, but these problems are not necessarily new for Pokemon or an element of the most recent generations only.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
Its amazing how much sense your making yet everyone around you is going to go LALALA I CAN"T HEAR YOU LALA this is the pokemon fandom sadly.

Oooooor.... just maybe... we have another opinion than he? Sorry that I don't hate the story.
And on my first playthrought SM was WAY harder than Ruby/Saphire, Diamond/Pearl, BW, XY, ORAS... I never got the complain that SM was easy... it never was for me. Maybe the people who say SM was easy overused Pokemon Refresh? Or they did google every team they have to batte in forehand? I don't know. The First Editions of every gen were never hard. And USUM seem to increase the difficulty too.

Developers want to appeal to the audience of mobile games for a more casual experience.
Link here https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re...view_with_masuda_on_oras_and_why_there_is_no/

Nobody cares about Masuda anymore. He isn't the boss anymore. And do you really think focus and story with a lot of dialogues is for a 'mobile audience' or 'casuals'? Casuals or mobile audience don't care about story and dialogues. The mobile generation don't want large storys with much of dialogues. Of they would be the target of SM and ORAS they would be without story.

And the characters in SM/USUM have more personalitty and backstory than in all past pokemon games together. Even in BW Cheren was just 'I want to be stronger!'... in every damn dialogue. He talked to you one hour and the only thing he was saying was 'I want to be stronger'. A whole hour.
 
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Hoennking

Well-Known Member
Oooooor.... just maybe... we have another opinion than he? Sorry that I don't hate the story.
And on my first playthrought SM was WAY harder than Ruby/Saphire, Diamond/Pearl, BW, XY, ORAS... I never got the complain that SM was easy... it never was for me. Maybe the people who say SM was easy overused Pokemon Refresh? Or they did google every team they have to batte in forehand? I don't know. The First Editions of every gen were never hard. And USUM seem to increase the difficulty too.



Nobody cares about Masuda anymore. He isn't the boss anymore. And do you really think focus and story with a lot of dialogues is for a 'mobile audience' or 'casuals'? Casuals or mobile audience don't care about story and dialogues. The mobile generation don't want large storys with much of dialogues. Of they would be the target of SM and ORAS they would be without story.

And the characters in SM/USUM have more personalitty and backstory than in all past pokemon games together. Even in BW Cheren was just 'I want to be stronger!'... in every damn dialogue. He talked to you one hour and the only thing he was saying was 'I want to be stronger'. A whole hour.

What? You realize Masuda is still huge part of gamefreak
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Nobody cares about Masuda anymore. He isn't the boss anymore. And do you really think focus and story with a lot of dialogues is for a 'mobile audience' or 'casuals'? Casuals or mobile audience don't care about story and dialogues. The mobile generation don't want large storys with much of dialogues. Of they would be the target of SM and ORAS they would be without story.

Except Alola is probably the only region where he's not the director, and instead was given to Ohmori. However, with how they said that the younger staff worked on USUM, and the senior, more experienced staff for gen 8 Switch, you can be sure Masuda will be in charge and have major role in its creation.

And the characters in SM/USUM have more personalitty and backstory than in all past pokemon games together. Even in BW Cheren was just 'I want to be stronger!'... in every damn dialogue. He talked to you one hour and the only thing he was saying was 'I want to be stronger'. A whole hour.

And again, that's only your opinion and feeling. Barring Acerola, none of the Trial Captains had any role or personality whatsoever. Hau was annoyingly happy for most of the game, and kept yapping about Malasadas. Honestly with his personality, i felt like he was a leftover concept from the annoying XY gang. Only the major characters like Lusamine, Lillie, Gladion and Guzma had backstories and depth. For me, BW and BW2 had the most fleshed out characters, with all the gym leaders, N, Ghetsis, Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, etc.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
And again, that's only your opinion and feeling. Barring Acerola, none of the Trial Captains had any role or personality whatsoever. Hau was annoyingly happy for most of the game, and kept yapping about Malasadas. Honestly with his personality, i felt like he was a leftover concept from the annoying XY gang. Only the major characters like Lusamine, Lillie, Gladion and Guzma had backstories and depth. For me, BW and BW2 had the most fleshed out characters, with all the gym leaders, N, Ghetsis, Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, etc.

That's YOUR opinion. You did realise you can get some scenes with Ilima, Lana, Kiawe and Mallow? They all have a backstory and depther personality. Did you miss this scenes? Like that Kiawe has to work at the super market to get money? But he has problems at his job?

And again... Ghetsis, Cheren, Bianca, Hugh... are not fleshed out in my opinion. Or to use your words ' that's only your opinion and feeling'. Cheren is nothing more than 'I want to be stronger' in EVERY DAMN SENTENCE. There is nothing more about Cheren than 'I want to be stronger'. Ghetsis? He is just an insane who wants to rule the world... and who is talking like he is from another time. Backstory? Depht? Both of them are missing this. And I don't know if any of the gym leaders had any backstory. Hugh? Hugh is like the others. He is nothing more than 'I'm TRIGGERED! I want the pokemon of my sister!'... every dialogue with him is about the damn Pokemon of his sister... or he is triggered by something. Yeah... great chbaracters. So much depth and personality and backstory. Nothing comparable to Kiawe who has a private live OUTSIDE of his job as Trial Captain.
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO
Apparently Director Iwao believes Pokémon can have a games-as-service model as GO and BoTW.

I guess DLC is practically confirmed for future generations.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Apparently Director Iwao believes Pokémon can have a games-as-service model as GO and BoTW.

I guess DLC is practically confirmed for future generations.

Well is it only Iwao who believes that, or have Ohmori and Masuda mentioned this as well?

Well, only if Pokémon Switch is radically different, and is similar to BOTW open world, that I can see DLC making sense, but if Pokémon Switch is going to follow a similar style to previous generations, I find it hard to see how DLC can be implemented properly
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Apparently Director Iwao believes Pokémon can have a games-as-service model as GO and BoTW.

I guess DLC is practically confirmed for future generations.

That's great if true, but considering this is the same company that said "USUM is an Ultra Change" and "we don't directly take fan feedback into account", you can't really trust a word they say anymore.
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO
I can't see how they do 60 dollar 3rd versions for switch. DLC makes way more sense

Well, they could make DLC exclusive for the third version, haha.

Edit: But no, JRPGs have remakes and retellings regardless of DLCs, because they are expensive to make and they need some reason to be resold.
 
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Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
USUM probably would've made more sense as an expansion pack considering that most of the major alterations are postgame
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
It really isn't until climax.

There are a few changes in the beginning. Lillie doesn’t seem to be in her first outfit and from screenshots the Starter ceremony has changed a bit. Plus we don’t know what the Trial Leader order is quite yet and they could have Akala's in any order and we know that Mallow's is completely different. And then Kahili is met before the League at some point and we don’t know if she’s a Trial Leader or just a Trainer that gives the Flying Z-Crystal and show you how to use it like Mina did.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
There are a few changes in the beginning. Lillie doesn’t seem to be in her first outfit and from screenshots the Starter ceremony has changed a bit. Plus we don’t know what the Trial Leader order is quite yet and they could have Akala's in any order and we know that Mallow's is completely different. And then Kahili is met before the League at some point and we don’t know if she’s a Trial Leader or just a Trainer that gives the Flying Z-Crystal and show you how to use it like Mina did.

[Spoil]Kahili is still an Elite Four, not a trial captain or Kahuna. Basically, you stumble across the Flynium Z randomly like SM, but instead, Kahili randomly appears for no reason, shows the pose, and goes away. So it's not very important.[/Spoil]
 
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