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General Discussion & Speculation Thread

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Platinum did have many things going for it that were an improvement from DP. First, it fixed the speed issues of surfing and game play in general, followed by a much better revamped story with Giratina and the Distortion World, and of course, the addition of a Battle Frontier.

As for USUM, remember, while my hype might be low for now, I'm not saying it's definitely going to suck. It's possible that if more news comes out, and reveal more interesting things such as new features and changes to the plot, I will be excited again. But as of now, I'm just not feeling it for these games. I've found their approach to this game very weird. USUM were randomly inserted in a Pokémon direct that was dominated by Pokken, which is a side series. Then the lack of news for 2 months, followed by the less than spectacular reveal of Dusk Lycanroc (its not bad, but just feels uninspired) makes me feel that even Gamfreak is subtly trying to tell us not to expect much from these games.

I really don't think you should take it that way. Just cause they're spoiling us with info like usual doesn't mean there isn't much to show. You know another game that's kind of going through the same thing, Sonic Forces, even Kingdom Hearts. We barely get any info except every other blue moon but that doesn't mean there's not much to the game's itself.
 

KingMinun

Dawn/Sinnoh Fan!
From my perspective, Gen 4 wasn't well received and I believe platinum was somewhat responsible for that. All it did was introduce new useful tutors like heat wave on most birds, the distortion world and new forms of what, two legends? Then of course you had almost all legends and bluh bluh.

Another thing is, when we were younger we would have our parents buy any single Pokémon game that was on the shelves. Now that their audience have gotten older, we will become more hesitant to buying them, or letting them get away with only minor changes. But the thing is, new generations of kids who don't know any better exist now, so why would they care? Just slightly less than before from older fans.


From what I remember, Platinum was one of the best received 3rd game, better than Crystal and Emerald. It had enough going for it to warrant people to buy it, like everything you just mentioned, the battle frontier, the rematches against gym leaders, the fixes it made to DP. That was enough for a lot of people to buy it. And people consider it to be the true version of the 4th gen games.

And yes, parents were a big aspect for us older generation players in getting the games, but if you were around for gen 1-4, then another version of the games coming out shortly after the first version really shouldn't be much of a surprise. Out of the 7 gens, that third version of the game only hasn't happened twice, in gen 5 (where we had a sequel) and gen 6 where we didn't have anything.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
Haha, could you imagine if GF tried to be similar to kingdom Hearts in the market? "Now as you guys wait for ultra sun and ultra moon, here is red and blue version 2.5 with ultra beasts featuring Dante from the devil may cry series and knuckles" woo boy I could almost imagine the war between enraged consumers and die hard nostalgic fans.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
In reality, I think USUM just needs a hook, something to get everyone talking. Initial paired versions and remakes fundamentally have this by being the first of their generation (and thus adding new stuff by design) and being updates to nostalgic generations, but USUM is updating a game that is recent, and we don't know if the updates are going to be worth it. Even among third versions it seems to be having trouble as with Platinum they did in the next month after its reveal give us the Distortion World that got people talking about that and with B2W2, it was a sequel so even in the off months you still could have people talking about what it being a sequel means for the games' content and story.

With USUM, it just doesn't have that. So far after two months we only have the trailer, that it's an 'alternate story', it has new features, and Pokémon to the Pokedex, and that's not enough to really get people excited or discussing things. The trailer didn't show off too much that got people talking, the 'alternate story' bit has just led to a circular argument on whether it means sequel or updated story with little else delving into it, and the rest is just typical. USUM doesn't have that one thing to keep people going so far, so people are feeling the grind even more then they were with SM, XY, ORAS, B2W2 and the other games. I won't pretend that those games didn't have slow times that people got disinterested, but the conversations did seem a bit more lively with them, USUM is still struggling to find that identity to keep discussion flowing and it's showing in the lack of interest.
 

shadowF

Well-Known Member
In reality, I think USUM just needs a hook, something to get everyone talking. Initial paired versions and remakes fundamentally have this by being the first of their generation (and thus adding new stuff by design) and being updates to nostalgic generations, but USUM is updating a game that is recent, and we don't know if the updates are going to be worth it. Even among third versions it seems to be having trouble as with Platinum they did in the next month after its reveal give us the Distortion World that got people talking about that and with B2W2, it was a sequel so even in the off months you still could have people talking about what it being a sequel means for the games' content and story.

With USUM, it just doesn't have that. So far after two months we only have the trailer, that it's an 'alternate story', it has new features, and Pokémon to the Pokedex, and that's not enough to really get people excited or discussing things. The trailer didn't show off too much that got people talking, the 'alternate story' bit has just led to a circular argument on whether it means sequel or updated story with little else delving into it, and the rest is just typical. USUM doesn't have that one thing to keep people going so far, so people are feeling the grind even more then they were with SM, XY, ORAS, B2W2 and the other games. I won't pretend that those games didn't have slow times that people got disinterested, but the conversations did seem a bit more lively with them, USUM is still struggling to find that identity to keep discussion flowing and it's showing in the lack of interest.


I agree, I know people like comparing USUM with B2W2 but the thing is B2W2 had something each month before its release. Yeah the first month was movie related but it was still something. Plus we had something to hook us with to preorder the games and that is that they were going to be sequels. USUM currently has almost none of that, yeah we got a new form this month but that is after two months of no news, it will be a shame if that is the only news to come this month. Also USUM has no "hook" all that was said was that they will be games set in a alternative world. We need more info on what that means in order to give us the urge to preorder. I am not saying these games will be terrible but the way Gamefreak is handling the marketing for these games is terrible.
 

20LigerZero16

"..........................."
I don't think Gamefreak should hold anything back for any of their games. But we have to remember Gen 6 is their first time adapting to the 3D world, and I think their still trying to adjust, so you really can't expect super wild changes that quick, but you do see improvement.

I understand about X and Y not having a lot of post game content for new games, but what about ORAS and the fact that those games should've been one of the best in the series but they weren't because they didn't put in everything that they could have into those games, which obviously includes features that made gen 3 great (aka emerald/first ever battle frontier).
 

Hoennking

Well-Known Member
i remember masuda giving an interview during oras time saying kids in todays are on there smartphones and have less attention span so they didnt incluse the battle frontier. it sucks but thats the way there thinking now
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
I feel like these issues would be fixed if this series finally moved away from having two versions of a region. But it makes them money....so they have no reason of straying away from that. More development time and money focused on one version only.

The other theory is that GF have added a lot more developers since BW2 so that's why they can dish out another version so fast.

No, the dual version has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of design direction from Game Freak and development time. Adding more devs could help, but if Game Freak doesn't want to make a content heavy game (which in interviews they've said they haven't), it isn't going to matter.

I don't see how XY and SM have been light on content compared to previous standards.The only debut games with more stuff in it would be GS(in which the 3rd version had the least amount of changes) and BW( and DP when compared to XY).They at worst have as much content as RB/RS.

For RB and GS you have a point, but those games are so primitive that they're not really relevant to the argument. But for the more recent ones, many of them had large post game sections, multiple extra features to mess around with (such as Contests and Secret Bases), and tons of National Dex Pokemon to catch. XY and SM, on the other hand, have smaller post game sections, little to no extra features, and not as many new Pokemon to look around for in the post game.

The link only brought me to the front page of Youtube. I'll do some looking and see if I can find it myself.

Bad link, try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMkBWg8XKh0

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that one myself. The Alola Dex already has 300 Pokémon in it. Another 100 would have it approaching the massive Kalos Dex, which I think was much too big and caused Pokémon to get lost. What they really need to do instead is add back National Dex and put in a significant amount of non-Alolan Dex Pokémon to catch post-game.

Well in this case, I wouldn't be as excited by that either. The Alola Dex is already fairly balanced, and much better off than some other regional dexes, the only real issue is too many 1st gen Pokemon and not enough 7th gen Pokemon (the latter of which isn't even fixable short of going a Gen 7.5 route but I don't think they want to do that). But having a ton of new Pokemon in the game is something that helps keep the game interested and different from the original, it really changes team dynamics and storyline battles.

I don't know if that's really fair. While it is true that the last two or three generations have been getting pretty simple, they're still far from the simplicity level of a mobile game.

Maybe not, but mobile is responsible for what's happened to the last 2 or 3 generations.

Well, that is what these games are. What's wrong with that?

Because the term "alternate universe" could easily describe a generic third version with minimal changes. Hell, if you have a copy/paste game with Lillie standing 3 squares to the right that's still an alternate universe.

Again, doesn't rule anything out but it does indicate that a sense of minimalism in this game.

Maybe gamefreak shouldn't have dropped their entire load into b2w2, to the point that every game since then has either felt incomplete or not good enough because they couldn't hold off stuff for future generation games. For example, hidden grottos and pokemon world tournament.

You can thank b2w2 for every game since then looking unfinished by the way.

BW2 has nothing to do with this either. That game is ancient history development wise and they haven't had problems coming up with creative new things when they actually want to. The problem is that they don't.

Also, Platinum and HGSS are better, just saying.

i remember masuda giving an interview during oras time saying kids in todays are on there smartphones and have less attention span so they didnt incluse the battle frontier. it sucks but thats the way there thinking now

Yeah this, this is what's probably going on. Game Freak is looking at the mobile market and how popular it is and thinks that if they make Pokemon more like a mobile game, it'll sell better. Unfortunately that's not necessarily true, the reason mobile is so popular is because it draws in a large market of people that just see video games as one part of a general entertainment package and aren't willing to invest a lot of time and money into it. Gamers of this mentality, for the most part, are unwilling to spend $200-$300 on a gaming focused device and then an extra $40-$60 on a game for it, so that market is not as big of a factor in the main games as Game Freak thinks they are.

Basically, at this point we just have to wait for Game Freak to realize that. In that sense, I'm actually glad USUM is getting a negative reception so far because it means Game Freak will come back with a better game next time if the game is really as awful as it's looking.
 
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Erron Black

The Outlaw
Well I don't think people actually want third versions, it's really hard to justify paying for the same game twice. The likely reason people want third versions is because they see them as mulligans, an opportunity for Game Freak to correct the mistakes they made in the original game. So you really have to look at this on a case by case basis. XY had a lot of problems with lack of content and a storyline with more loose ends than a coil of sisal rope, and a lot of people wanted to see an update to XY that addresses those issues. Now SM has some of the former, but not quite as much. Additionally, USUM is in a transition period with people expecting a Switch game soon and with the Stars rumor going around people were all too happy to buy into it and ended up let down when it was proven false.

Going by that logic then it's hard to justify paying for a remake, I mean it's literally the same game it used to be with fancier graphics and some new toys, yet everyone has been crying for D/P to be remade.

Also the whole Switch game was complete ***, if you fell for that or were even expecting that, then that's on your own head. Gamefreak has NEVER released a main series Pokemon game the FIRST year of a console's life, nor have they EVER transitioned from the older console to a new one right in the middle of a generation. That's never changing.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Going by that logic then it's hard to justify paying for a remake, I mean it's literally the same game it used to be with fancier graphics and some new toys, yet everyone has been crying for D/P to be remade.

Remakes are a little easier to sell though because they have a larger time gap. That gives players enough time to miss those games, new audiences to grow up having never experience them, and technology to improve enough to add more new stuff. Whereas third versions are just reselling you games you just played recently on recent hardware, so it's harder to really market that and you need to get a little more creative to get people interested.

Also the whole Switch game was complete ***, if you fell for that or were even expecting that, then that's on your own head. Gamefreak has NEVER released a main series Pokemon game the FIRST year of a console's life, nor have they EVER transitioned from the older console to a new one right in the middle of a generation. That's never changing.

I agree, but regardless of whether or not you believed the Stars rumor, the mere presence of the Switch creates anticipation among the fanbase for its first entry. Even if the Stars rumor wasn't a thing, you'd still have people calling for a Switch game just because they want something for the shiny new hardware. Hell, when BW2 came out, there were people complaining that it wasn't on 3DS as well. Not having a rumor stating that didn't change anything, people are just annoyed with Game Freak's timing when it comes to hardware transitions. I think there's a lot of impatience to get this generation wrapped up and move onto the Switch, which is a factor in why there's so much negativity towards USUM.

Frankly, I think having a 7th generation on 3DS was a mistake in the first place, there was no real need for one and it's dragged out the 3DS longer than it probably should have.
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Remakes are a little easier to sell though because they have a larger time gap. That gives players enough time to miss those games, new audiences to grow up having never experience them, and technology to improve enough to add more new stuff. Whereas third versions are just reselling you games you just played recently on recent hardware, so it's harder to really market that and you need to get a little more creative to get people interested.



I agree, but regardless of whether or not you believed the Stars rumor, the mere presence of the Switch creates anticipation among the fanbase for its first entry. Even if the Stars rumor wasn't a thing, you'd still have people calling for a Switch game just because they want something for the shiny new hardware. Hell, when BW2 came out, there were people complaining that it wasn't on 3DS as well. Not having a rumor stating that didn't change anything, people are just annoyed with Game Freak's timing when it comes to hardware transitions. I think there's a lot of impatience to get this generation wrapped up and move onto the Switch, which is a factor in why there's so much negativity towards USUM.

Frankly, I think having a 7th generation on 3DS was a mistake in the first place, there was no real need for one and it's dragged out the 3DS longer than it probably should have.

Only 2 Gens were on the 3DS.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Weren't Gen 4 and 5 on the DS? No complaints then.

The difference being that 4th gen wasn't cut to 2 sets of games to cram in an awkward transition generation, they let it play out to the end and needed something else to fill the gap.

And again, people didn't like 5th gen cutting into the 3DS' lifespan either.
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
The difference being that 4th gen wasn't cut to 2 sets of games to cram in an awkward transition generation, they let it play out to the end and needed something else to fill the gap.

But X and Y would be technically the 4th gen since those were the first games of the gen, and ORAS while remakes were kind of a continuation of XY. Sun and Moon would be the BW in this case since it's the last 2 games of the 3DS.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
But X and Y would be technically the 4th gen since those were the first games of the gen, and ORAS while remakes were kind of a continuation of XY. Sun and Moon would be the BW in this case since it's the last 2 games of the 3DS.

Not really, ORAS is more like the HGSS, it's a remake in the first generation of the hardware. There's no equivalent to Platinum since XY didn't get any type of followup game, and the 3DS only had 4 sets of games to the DS' 5.

But this is all irrelevant. The issue is with timing, not with how many games there are or which games they are.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Not really, ORAS is more like the HGSS, it's a remake in the first generation of the hardware. There's no equivalent to Platinum since XY didn't get any type of followup game, and the 3DS only had 4 sets of games to the DS' 5.

But this is all irrelevant. The issue is with timing, not with how many games there are or which games they are.

Even if Ultra wasn't coming out this year, it'd come out the next. Next installments tend to come out in 2 years time. So makes me wonder if they're able to games much faster recently. Or maybe they've been working on this game longer than we thought.
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
The issue is with timing, not with how many games there are or which games they are.

This is something that we should be used to by now regardless. There's no excuse. Once SUMO was revealed it should've been common sense that we'd get another installment on 3DS the next year. It happens with every new generation. There is no 'timing' issue it's literally people whining because they want the new thing NOW.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Even if Ultra wasn't coming out this year, it'd come out the next. Next installments tend to come out in 2 years time. So makes me wonder if they're able to games much faster recently. Or maybe they've been working on this game longer than we thought.

This is something that we should be used to by now regardless. There's no excuse. Once SUMO was revealed it should've been common sense that we'd get another installment on 3DS the next year. It happens with every new generation. There is no 'timing' issue it's literally people whining because they want the new thing NOW.

Again, you guys are missing the point. It's not about why did we get USUM after SM, that much is obvious. It's about why we got SM on the 3DS in the first place, that never sat well with me and I knew all of this would happen as a result. 6th gen could've afforded to last another year and then we could've had 7th gen on the Switch after that, and that would've made a lot more sense on multiple levels. How is it excusable that Game Freak routinely transitions to new hardware later than expected and prolongs the aging hardware with additional generations? There's no reason SM couldn't have been a Switch game in 2017 instead of a 3DS game in 2016, especially when the games were meant to be future proofed with HD assets in the first place.
 
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