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General Discussion & Speculation Thread

Wulava

danger chili pepper
Staff member
Moderator
Nintendo could be doing everything right and you all would still complain tbh.

That's how it is, and always will be.
Even if we get a Battle Frontier, a PWT, a second region, or a hundred new Pokemon mid-gen in these games, people will still complain.
 

Beat!

The Chords of Steel
Also the absence of information doesn't mean the absence of content. Just because something isn't announced don't mean it's not in the game. The game could have way more content than BW2 even if they keep the current method of few informationbs. We don't know it.

They seem to be doing the opposite with USUM than they did with SM.
They released so much information that there was a moment that i wished they stopped. Of the 80 new Pokemon we knew about almost 60. Plus the leaks didn't help.

Maybe this is their way of countering that.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
Nintendo could be doing everything right and you all would still complain tbh.

Potentially yes, but we're never going to reach that ideal scenario. No game will ever be perfection, there's always going to be something that could've been done better, and we honestly will probably never truly know how people will react if something of the sort happened.

Regardless, that implies that there's no valid criticisms to give in this situation, which is false. You can definitely disagree with the criticisms, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or lack any weight, it just depends on how you feel about them.

They seem to be doing the opposite with USUM than they did with SM.
They released so much information that there was a moment that i wished they stopped. Of the 80 new Pokemon we knew about almost 60. Plus the leaks didn't help.

Maybe this is their way of countering that.

Pokémon has a strange relationship when it comes to giving out news for their games, especially nowadays. When the generation is new, they just unload everything they can until you basically know everything you're getting in the game. When it's just a third version or continuation, it tends to be a lot more sparse and the information we get is very low, probably because there's not as much to give such as new Pokémon.

In general, a mixture of the two is probably better since you can keep the hype going without revealing almost everything across multiple months, but there's not much you can do about that.
 
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Wulava

danger chili pepper
Staff member
Moderator
They seem to be doing the opposite with USUM than they did with SM.
They released so much information that there was a moment that i wished they stopped. Of the 80 new Pokemon we knew about almost 60. Plus the leaks didn't help.

Maybe this is their way of countering that.

However, despite their efforts, the reality is that the game will be datamined and information will still be leaked ahead of the game's release. Earlier if they give us a demo, which I think is unnecessary since it's technically the same game.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
They seem to be doing the opposite with USUM than they did with SM.
They released so much information that there was a moment that i wished they stopped. Of the 80 new Pokemon we knew about almost 60. Plus the leaks didn't help.

Maybe this is their way of countering that.

Yeah, there were only 11 new Mons and 3 Alola Forms left unrevealed at launch, and if we are actually getting more UB's (beyond Burst and Assembly), and possibly new Alola Forms (though I'm not holding my breath), then it's best for GF to play most of that info close to the vest as not to spoil the whole game.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
Well gen 5 arguably had the most fleshed out story out of all Pokémon games, and it didn't need to rely on overwhelming amounts of cutscenes (granted it was on the DS). In SM, I didn't mind the important cutscenes, but majority of the cutscenes actually weren't that important and interrupted the gameplay.

Unfortunately, I saw a picture, where in the summary start up screen, it showed the play time of 1 hr 07 min, and the player was still in Route 1 and had seen a grand total of 2 Pokémon on the Pokedex. I really hope this doesn't mean that the introduction is again unnecessarily super long. I hated that in SM, since it took you ages to get your starter Pokémon.

I disagree. The story of SM is way better than in Gen 5. And gen 5 had a worse problem: Many dialogues without much content. Like... every dialogue with Cheren could be sumarized to 'I want to be stronger!'... but they talked about this issue like one hour. And with very unrealistic dialogues nobody would every use in RL. Nobody would talk like Ghetsis all the way. Beside N all characters aren't well written.

Yes the way the story was told in SM wasn't good.- Way to many and long cutscenes but the story itself was well written for a Pokemon game. Every NPC has his own little story and background. They have realistic goals and personalities. Even Lusamine wasn't nonsense evil like every other villaine boss beside Govanni. She was just a psychopath and was influenced by the UBs. She didn't want to destroy the world because of fun or because she wanted to rule the world or some other stupid reasons.
 

Hoennking

Well-Known Member
Nintendo could be doing everything right and you all would still complain tbh.

i dont want to complain anything. i would love to praise game freak and nintendo up and down but USUM right does not look like its worth 39.99 upgrade. i bought every pokemon and i would love to them show some exiting stuff like a post game lol
 

Hasty

Moonside
Yeah, there were only 11 new Mons and 3 Alola Forms left unrevealed at launch, and if we are actually getting more UB's (beyond Burst and Assembly), and possibly new Alola Forms (though I'm not holding my breath), then it's best for GF to play most of that info close to the vest as not to spoil the whole game.

I mean they revealed all those new Pokemon voluntarily. That's how they're doing things since a few years. New Pokemon are just marketable.

If they don't reveal any new Alola forms, any other new Ultra Beasts or so pre-release, I would say the most we can expect is like 4-7 new Ultra Beasts and a Mythical or so... on the Pokemon side of things.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
it got datamine 2 weeks before release. same will happen with USUM im assuming

If there's another demo, then yes, almost certainly. If there isn't it will depend when (not if) somebody somewhere starts selling the game ahead of the release, which is a bit harder to pin down.
 

dementeddurian

Love Ball Lover
I don't think anyone has said this, but with the trailer showing surfers and surfboards, will we see the elusive Surfing Pikachu in USUM?
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
I don't think anyone has said this, but with the trailer showing surfers and surfboards, will we see the elusive Surfing Pikachu in USUM?

I hope so. Gen 6 had a few Surfing Pikachu events, but none that came to the US, and none of which gave Pikachu Lightning Rod (which won't matter if you evolve it into Alolan Raichu, but I digress). This would be a good opportunity to give players easy access to the move on Pikachu.

That said, a beach full of surfers in a Hawaii-based region isn't really out of place, so while I would like a Surfing Pikachu event, I'm not banking on it.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
And yet, this IS your personal opinion. You haven't done any market studies, or poured money into marketing research. You've read some people who are skeptical, and drawn a conclusion based on your personal opinion that matches.

Well first of all, we have concrete data that says that third versions are low selling. All of the third versions (except Yellow, but 1st gen is a sales outlier compared to the rest of the series) sell in the 6-8 million range. Other games in the series, meanwhile, have sold in the 12-18 million range. Second, we have studies that show that the audience is getting older, the demographic of people you see on the internet complaining is the demographic that's becoming dominant. Third, we've seen that regardless of the sales situation, when there's enough complaints from this demographic, developers tend to respond. Look at Metroid, the series has been fairly low selling but because the fanbase has been so vocal about Metroid's hiatus and upset with Federation Force, they announced Metroid Samus Returns and Metroid Prime 4 at E3 this year. Then there's Mario Odyssey, which was made in response to the complaints about the NSMB games and 3D Land/3D World despite those selling well. Even Game Freak themselves have paid attention to criticism such as the lack of balance in competitive, the HM system, and badges. Hell, the announcement of the Switch game at E3 was likely also in response to the negativity behind USUM's announcement. So if there's enough complaints on the internet about USUM, you can bet they're going to do something about it.

Despite the flack that XY got, ORAS got and Sumo got, they still sold like hot cakes and made them a huge profit. And the community was FULL of skepticism.

I really think the whole "it's not different enough to sell" argument is bogus when most people end up buying both Sun AND Moon and that IS the exact same game. Yes, I think there will definitely be a group of people who won't buy it if they don't think its worth it and more power to them. But so far, that hasn't been enough to stop or slow sales.

The community wasn't skeptical with the games before release. There was a lot of excitement behind the games actually. The skepticism came into play after the fact once we knew what the games have in store (or to be more precise, what they didn't). That kind of issue isn't going to have an immediate impact on sales, it's going to have a gradual effect over time as people start to catch on to Game Freak's ********.

But with this game? The skepticism is starting before the games' release. The excitement that usually drives Pokemon isn't there and that is going to affect the game's sales. Lack of excitement could have an effect not just on the fans who don't like what they see, but on casuals who would hear about this game through word of mouth.

We also STILL don't know how different it is.

The map gives us a pretty good idea, the map is very telling as to what we can look forward to in the region because of how detailed they are. And the fact that the map is 99% similar to the original strongly implies few changes. Not to mention that we have all of the basic information on this game, that we're starting with the same characters in the same area with the same starters, and several of the cutscenes are the same or at least similar.

How exactly would they patch this game to change the entire storyline without forcing you to restart your save file on Sumo?

Who said anything about changing the storyline? They should add onto the storyline, make the storyline for the DLC like the Delta Episode.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be hesitant to buy the game. I think it's smart and resourceful of your funds and time, don't buy something that's not worth it to you. But it's one thing to say that you don't want to, it's another to claim the entire Pokémon company is in the beginning of economic collapse for a game that we know three trailers about.

"Economic collapse" is an exaggeration and I never claimed that. But this game could definitely underperform and would be in danger of losing Game Freak money if they keep making more games like this, and if they're smart they'll address these issues with future games. To put it simply, Game Freak should treat this as a warning sign.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
That's a perfectly valid criticism. But if that's the issue you were taking, why were you defending BW2? In this regard, they're every bit as guilty. But if they're being given a pass on account of the work put into them, USUM need their fair chance to show whether or not they should be given the same courtesy.

Just because I feel like third versions should be sequels and not just retelling of a region. BW2 had the right direction I feel. Yes they had their exclusives as well but those were old pokemon or pokemon you didn't get from the first game anyway. I understand giving them a chance, and I was happy to see new pokemon mid gen. I just have a bad feeling they're going about it the wrong way.

Also, if GF instead withheld information about say sun and moon, but gave us more info on ultra sun and ultra moon, I feel like that would be a better balance. It should be a hard sell to replay a region and knowing more about the game would help more than showing the same legends+lycanroc and only recently did we get ultra beasts.
 

.Aerodactyl.

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying we can't be skeptical, or that's it's above criticism. Even I have criticisms. I think gen 5 was the worst generation by far. I think Sumo needed better level-up areas for building teams. So I don't mean to sound like we can't voice opinions. I just think it's funny that everyone is so certain, and we still don't know what the games are gonna be like.

I remember LOTS of people being skeptical of ORAS BEFORE it came out, AND skeptical of Sumo. ORAS argugably more so. And yet, somehow, after complaining about how terrible it was going to be, it was still bought, even by people who said they wouldn't. The community is far from one unified voice too, that's the thing. Everyone was super upset we didn't get Pokémon Z, and yet we're also super upset that we're getting another "3rd" game instead of a sequel or a remake. We all want something "new" to shake up the series, but we hate ideas like Megas and z-moves (which the kids love) and rage when we don't get gen 4 remakes. We're all sick of Kanto, but we miss the good old days when we had Pokémon like Gyarados and screw Vaniluxe cause it's "stupid". Why can't things be like gen 5 , you know, one of the WORST selling generations? Lets finally get rid of gyms, yay, except why didn't they bring them back, ya know?? Like, we are far from being this unified voice because Pokémon isn't like the metroid series, or the Mario series. People play for different reasons...some like the collecting aspect. Others like the batting, some like raising Pokémon, some like the online. There is room for a lot of diversity in play, we aren't all.comong for the same reasons and won't appreciate the same stuff.

I honestly shouldn't be so dogmatic either. I can't honestly come out and say with absolute certainty that these games won't end up being flops for game freak, so I honestly apologize for falling into that trap. I just think we get so caught up in our own opinions we don't see that it's not this black and white obvious problem and there isn't this 100% clear outcome of how things will go down. And most of us, no matter what we say, end up buying it and playing it anyway.
 

Thure

Well-Known Member
The map gives us a pretty good idea, the map is very telling as to what we can look forward to in the region because of how detailed they are. And the fact that the map is 99% similar to the original strongly implies few changes. Not to mention that we have all of the basic information on this game, that we're starting with the same characters in the same area with the same starters, and several of the cutscenes are the same or at least similar.

The map is already way more different than in Emerald or Platinum. That's not 99% similiar. And Pikachu Valley isn't even on the map. We already saw some places in the trailer which are not on the map. And I still think the cloud in the lower left is VERY convenient shaped this time.

Old Map:https://www.pidgi.net/wiki/images/7/71/Alola_region_map_-_Pokemon_Sun_and_Moon.jpg
New Map: https://i.imgur.com/BvvFLyp.png
 

john90

Well-Known Member
The map is already way more different than in Emerald or Platinum. That's not 99% similiar. And Pikachu Valley isn't even on the map. We already saw some places in the trailer which are not on the map. And I still think the cloud in the lower left is VERY convenient shaped this time.

Old Map:https://www.pidgi.net/wiki/images/7/71/Alola_region_map_-_Pokemon_Sun_and_Moon.jpg
New Map: https://i.imgur.com/BvvFLyp.png

The map is not the real problem imo. The real problem is the story. If Lillie and Nebby will have the same plot until the altar of the sun/moon this means that Lusamine and Nihilego have the same plot too, that Pavel opened the portal, has lost his memory and is always on the island while team Skull are still the bad guys. Basically we have nothing new until Necrozma appears. From that point is all new but 90% of the story wil have no pathos. They could have done much better on this side because of the multiverse thing where a world with Lillie being still at the AP, Lusamine never being infected by Nihilego could have happened but they will basically give us Platinum again.
 

Kein

AKA Silktree
I am not going to make any bold assumptions about these games, but I just have no interest in them.

What I find puzzling is the lack of walking Pokemon aside from maybe some overworld interaction with random Pokemon. I guess they're saving those unused models for the Switch.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
Basically it comes down to "we've only seen this much of the game. What I have seen is leading to disappointment" or the other side "I'm hopeful that what we've seen is only a fraction of what's to come and I'm looking forward to it" both opinions are neither right or wrong, just opinions. I just think it's a bit rude to say we are complainers. Of course I'll buy the game anyway because otherwise my friends can't battle me because they don't update the first games with new toys because GF is such a great developer.
 
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Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
I remember LOTS of people being skeptical of ORAS BEFORE it came out, AND skeptical of Sumo. ORAS argugably more so. And yet, somehow, after complaining about how terrible it was going to be, it was still bought, even by people who said they wouldn't. The community is far from one unified voice too, that's the thing. Everyone was super upset we didn't get Pokémon Z, and yet we're also super upset that we're getting another "3rd" game instead of a sequel or a remake. We all want something "new" to shake up the series, but we hate ideas like Megas and z-moves (which the kids love) and rage when we don't get gen 4 remakes. We're all sick of Kanto, but we miss the good old days when we had Pokémon like Gyarados and screw Vaniluxe cause it's "stupid". Why can't things be like gen 5 , you know, one of the WORST selling generations? Lets finally get rid of gyms, yay, except why didn't they bring them back, ya know?? Like, we are far from being this unified voice because Pokémon isn't like the metroid series, or the Mario series. People play for different reasons...some like the collecting aspect. Others like the batting, some like raising Pokémon, some like the online. There is room for a lot of diversity in play, we aren't all.comong for the same reasons and won't appreciate the same stuff.

There is some of that yeah, but it's not as contradictory as you think. As far as "third versions", the fans mean they want a followup to the original game with expanded content. But that's a mouthful to say over "third versions", so they just say third versions. But really, they want something more like a sequel that offers much larger expansions than traditional third versions, which neither XY nor SM got. Hence people are complaining about both for different reasons. Doing new things to shake up the series is good, but mechanics like Megas and Z-Moves are kind of tacked on and overcomplicate things so they're not really "shake ups", they're more like regional flavor which is not what fans want, they want progress and changes in philosophy, something Game Freak has been very resistant to lately (and arguably has never really done).

Game Freak's problem is a matter of balance and execution, they've been pretty good at changing the things the fanbase wants changed, but not in the way they want it changed. So their solutions just fragment the fanbase even further. They don't really "improve" things, they just come up with some contrived solution for the sake of "uniqueness". For instance, in 4th gen people complained about the amount of cross gen evolutions in the dex and how the old Pokemon have too much of a presence, so what do they do to solve that in 5th gen? They removed cross gen evolutions altogether and limit you to new Pokemon only in BW. Which of course people complained about, so then in XY they had a ton of old Pokemon and they pair that with Mega Evolutions as a solution to the lack of cross gen Pokemon. But the fanbase didn't like that either because now the old Pokemon are too much again and Megas are only a temporary power boost which doesn't help some of the weaker Pokemon. Do you see what's going on? They're overcorrecting the problems and flip flopping between opposite extremes, which triggers one side of the fanbase or the other (or even both). That's not a result of the fanbase having different preferences, that's a result of Game Freak failing to fully address the issues.

The map is already way more different than in Emerald or Platinum. That's not 99% similiar. And Pikachu Valley isn't even on the map. We already saw some places in the trailer which are not on the map. And I still think the cloud in the lower left is VERY convenient shaped this time.

Old Map:https://www.pidgi.net/wiki/images/7/71/Alola_region_map_-_Pokemon_Sun_and_Moon.jpg
New Map: https://i.imgur.com/BvvFLyp.png

No, that is like Emerald and Platinum. Same core design of the region with maybe a few extra areas or minor changes. Nothing we see on the map is any better than what we got in Emerald, Emerald had a lot of little additions like Magma Hideout, Mirage Tower, and Desert Underpass but no real major changes to the region design. USUM is looking the same.
 
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