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General Discussion & Speculation Thread

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
You say people are a little justified in their anger because the game they wanted has been ruled out but if people wanted a third version of Alola, they're getting it, they wanted a game that expanded on the role of Necrozma and that's exactly what US/UM is (from teaser stuff anyway). What more do they want, is it just the "Stars" brand that they wanted, did they want a basic "third version" of the game instead of something a bit different or is it something else entirely because I can't understand the anger from people who wanted Stars, at least not completely.

I don't think people wanted a basic third version like this, I think the reason so many people clung to the Stars rumor is because they're desperate for a Switch game and don't want to wait the usual 2 years into the console's lifespan to see one. Which is also a bit greedy and impatient but I can understand it because of Pokemon's business model, it's very generation based and consists of multiple games on the same hardware, so having situations like this where Game Freak is a perpetually late adopter to new hardware and supporting the older hardware longer than any other IP doesn't really seem smart for business and marketing. In this kind of business model, you're going to want the hardware generation life cycle to align with the Pokemon generation life cycle, and it really hasn't. And personally, having a 7th generation on the 3DS in 2016 never really sat well with me in the first place, not when we didn't even get a third version/sequel/whatever for XY. Having that in 2016 and SM on the Switch in 2017 would've been a bit better for them in the long run, I think. But unlike the Stars rumor believers, I knew once SM was announced, we'd be sticking with the 3DS for a little while longer.

Now as for how much content they expect out of a third version, it's pretty clear that no one really wants a regular third version anymore, the entire business model is based on selling you pretty much the same game all over again which isn't very consumer friendly and the only people that are really interested in them are people that either didn't play the original or don't mind spending an extra $40 to replay the game. Furthermore, BW2 has really raised the bar for this series and shown people that Game Freak can make a game taking place in the same region that isn't just a cynical rehash of the original game, and when people saw that they thought that it would be the new standard for these kinds of games instead of being a one off meant to make 5th gen look different. And BW2 style is already out the window judging by this region map, the region is 99% the same as SM which implies not much changes to the game and probably the same adventure all over again. If this game was like BW2, we'd know it immediately because we could see a ton of new areas and a ton of areas that have had significant, highly visible changes.

You then have the people who wanted Gen IV remakes and I'm sorry but I find those people to be amazingly delusional when it comes to that. The gap between HS/SS and OR/AS was 5 years and 2 generations and now people want the next set of remakes to come out only 3 years after the previous one and in the next generation no less; at least FR/LG being Gen 3, it still took 7 years until we get HG/SS so to not only anticipate but to demand that we get Gen IV remakes only 3 years after the last set of remakes is kind of pushing it. Again, I do believe they're coming but I still think it'll be Gen VIII (it goes along with the numerical theming since you had 1-3, 2-4 and 3-6 so 4-8 makes a bit more sense).

Yeah, the DP remake camp don't really have much of an excuse, that game is inevitable, but probably not happening until 8th gen. Whining for remakes has pretty much always been a thing as long as remakes themselves have been a thing, after FRLG were released we started seeing demands for GS remakes until HGSS finally came out, and then the same with RS remakes until ORAS. Now we're to the point where people are wanting DP remakes. Trust me, this is never going to end, even after DP remakes come out then we're going to see constant demand for BW remakes and so on ad nauseum with every region until the series ends.

I don't think fans should just accept whatever GF puts out or say it's amazing (I myself have issues with Black/White as well as Sun/Moon for being too story heavy and too linear) but I don't think this level of hate is deserving for these games, they're just the third version of Alola but with a slight spin on it. You don't have to like them but I don't think this negativity is, as you call it, a natural consequence. As you mention, people get worried if they fear certain elements of a previous game won't carry over to the next one but hasn't one of the major criticisms of the Pokemon games been that they're too formula-based, at least when it comes to game mechanics; the fighting's the same, the plots are generally the same, the goals are the same (collect a number of "badges", become champion) so unless people are worried about the more game-specific elements, like changing your appearance or Pokemon following you around (which I will never, ever understand why that's such a big thing with people, I don't get why people act as if that one feature is an absolute must) then I don't think they have much to worry about. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon will play just like every other Pokemon game before it with slight differences and almost nothing removed from Sun/Moon (because the assets are already there, why remove them). Pokemon has basically been the same game for 21 years and still it has a large fanbase, it still has a large adult fanbase who started with Red/Blue so I don't get why this game is the tipping point, it's nothing we haven't seen before so what makes it special, what seperates this game from Platinum or Emerald or Crystal that is making the fans claim this is where they draw the line. If they fear change, then why worry when you've been given no reason to assume great change and if they fear more of the same then again, I go back to my previous question.

There's a difference between being too formulaic and blatantly ignoring opportunities for improvement. Introducing something that has a profound effect on the main gameplay and then promptly removing it impedes the series' progress and makes every game feel like it's just going around in circles. Uniqueness is good to a degree, but people also want to see the formula progress and learn from past games. Game Freak needs to strike a more careful balance here, not just throw everything but the core formula out the window the next game.

I feel part of the problem is this mentality of "It was ok then but not now", you see it with how people react to new Pokemon and how the designs look uninspired but when anyone brings up the simplicity of older designs, you get the line of "It was ok back then but now they should have higher standards" even though we're nearing 1,000 Pokemon and for the most part, they've made all of them look fairly unique and kind of cool (excluding your mainstays like the Pikachu look-alike) and so I think that people are more forgiving of "third versions" from the past because that was the past but now they should be doing something bigger and better even though we're now at a point where alternate universes are a thing, story is getting more focus (I'd say a bit too much focus) and I personally feel that the series has matured in some aspects but I guess in some cases, people only look at the surface level and that's it.

Thing is that people's expectations naturally raise with improvements in technology and changing attitudes. Look at BotW, would you have ever expected to see a game like that in say, 1995? Of course not, games back then weren't capable of something large and meaty on that scale so no one really expected it, but now that we have hardware that is capable of running a game that large, let alone handhelds that are capable of running a game that large, gamers now expect more games on that scale. Same with Pokemon, with hardware like the 3DS and Switch people expect much more now than they did back in the day because there's much more that's possible with hardware that large.

Then there's BW2, which is a good example of changing attitudes. Game Freak said with BW2 that the game would be too predictable, so they came up with a sequel which changed a lot more than the usual third version. But now that they've done that, people now expect them to apply that same philosophy to the entire series and make games like USUM and even expected something like ORAS (which is not a third version, but still a revisit to an old region) to be equally unpredictable. So now regressing to what past generations did is seen as a disappointment, since Game Freak has shown they want to and are capable of more than what they did back then.
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
I think that there's only two, maybe three photo clubs in Alola. That plot of land might be a lighthouse (I hope so, it's been so long since we've been allowed in one)
 

Briankelly130

Well-Known Member
I don't think I have much more to say on that one, I understand where you're coming from and I guess I never had much of an issue with things being more of the same, if I get something new, I can be happily surprised and enjoy it and if I get the same as before, I stick to my philosophy that if I can find one thing to really like about a game, I can probably enjoy the game. Not everyone is like that and that's fine but I still think the negative attitude people have towards these games are a little unjust, especially for the reasons they're using, at least wait until it comes out and then decide for yourself.

I will say though, the argument about having a game on the Switch happened before with Gen V, when they were announced to be on the DS, people got angry saying that the games should be on the 3DS even though the system had just been announced during the run up to Black/White's release and wouldn't even be out when the games came out in Japan. The Switch wasn't even out when Sun/Moon released and I don't think they'd ever switch systems during a generation. It sucks but yeah, to believe that Stars would be on the Switch feels more like wishful thinking and then we got that announcement that yeah, Gen VIII will most likely be on the Switch which I feel would have been a better reveal if it wasn't done in an attempt to appease the fans after the US/UM reveal. I don't know how Japan thinks about this today but there has always been that technological snobbery when it came to the West, like the minute something new was on the horizon, everyone was quick to abandon the previous thing and jump ship to the new one even if the ship wasn't even completed yet and while Japan was always more willing to ride out older generations for a while, the last I heard of that was 10 years ago so I don't know how it is today.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
Honestly now I'm only looking forward to the new z moves at this point. Out of 3 videos we got that new z move was the only worth while thing we actually got imo
 

Wulava

danger chili pepper
Staff member
Moderator
Geez. We barely know anything about the game. And the game isn't out until November. And people are already saying that the game is bad.

It's like telling people that the book you haven't even read, the place you haven't been into, or the food you haven't tried, sucks so bad.
 

Hero of Truth

Lillie Fan
Geez. We barely know anything about the game. And the game isn't out until November. And people are already saying that the game is bad.

It's like telling people that the book you haven't even read, the place you haven't been into, or the food you haven't tried, sucks so bad.

The book example is actually mentioned by a NPC in S/M lol

Just shows how impatient people are for the next console (Switch) to get Pokémon games. *sigh*
 

Victorian Rush

Weather Manipulator
Geez. We barely know anything about the game. And the game isn't out until November. And people are already saying that the game is bad.

It's like telling people that the book you haven't even read, the place you haven't been into, or the food you haven't tried, sucks so bad.

Do not understand how people can say the game is bad when it hasn't even come out yet. That makes no sense to me.

Someone once told me the book I was reading sucks so mucu. Like, okay, you may have thought that but at least let me judge it for myself.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
I don't think I have much more to say on that one, I understand where you're coming from and I guess I never had much of an issue with things being more of the same, if I get something new, I can be happily surprised and enjoy it and if I get the same as before, I stick to my philosophy that if I can find one thing to really like about a game, I can probably enjoy the game. Not everyone is like that and that's fine but I still think the negative attitude people have towards these games are a little unjust, especially for the reasons they're using, at least wait until it comes out and then decide for yourself.

Well with that kind of attitude there wouldn't be a game you wouldn't like simply because every game introduces SOMETHING new, if nothing else there's always some kind of new feature thrown in, we already have the Alola Photo Club for this game. But depending on what aspects of the game you enjoy, this game may already not satisfy you. For instance, one of the most important factors to me is region design, and the possibility for new areas to explore has been all but ruled out with the map being so close to the original SM so this game doesn't excite me when we're just going through the same areas all over again. Other people might have wanted to see a sequel for the storyline progression, to see what's happened in the wake of SM's plot and how characters have developed since then. So even without playing the game, certain things have already been ruled out and if you played the game for those things, there's no point in even bothering with the game.

I will say though, the argument about having a game on the Switch happened before with Gen V, when they were announced to be on the DS, people got angry saying that the games should be on the 3DS even though the system had just been announced during the run up to Black/White's release and wouldn't even be out when the games came out in Japan. The Switch wasn't even out when Sun/Moon released and I don't think they'd ever switch systems during a generation. It sucks but yeah, to believe that Stars would be on the Switch feels more like wishful thinking and then we got that announcement that yeah, Gen VIII will most likely be on the Switch which I feel would have been a better reveal if it wasn't done in an attempt to appease the fans after the US/UM reveal.

Well again, I'm not disagreeing with the notion that a mid gen hardware leap was unlikely (and frankly, it's a bad idea to begin with). Once SM was announced I knew right away that not only would this game be a 3DS game, but the game after it would too. What I'm saying is that maybe releasing a new generation a year before new hardware in the first place might not be the greatest idea, especially when new generations are a relatively long term affair, then you're cutting too far into the newer hardware's lifespan and robbing the series of the opportunity to release a new game in a prime spot for marketing and sales.

I don't know how Japan thinks about this today but there has always been that technological snobbery when it came to the West, like the minute something new was on the horizon, everyone was quick to abandon the previous thing and jump ship to the new one even if the ship wasn't even completed yet and while Japan was always more willing to ride out older generations for a while, the last I heard of that was 10 years ago so I don't know how it is today.

I can't really blame people for being so impatient for new hardware, the nature of the tech industry pretty much conditions people to act that way. Console developers are releasing new hardware every ~5 years and expecting us to shell out a couple of hundred dollars for it. To really justify that kind of purchase they need to show how the games are next gen as well, how they take advantage of the new hardware. This creates a constant expectation that the next game should be better than the last. Combine that with the hyper commercial nature of Western culture and it's easy to see how people want the latest and greatest thing immediately.

Geez. We barely know anything about the game. And the game isn't out until November. And people are already saying that the game is bad.

It's like telling people that the book you haven't even read, the place you haven't been into, or the food you haven't tried, sucks so bad.

More like if a new restaurant is opening and we already know the menu. If an Italian restaurant is opening and you find out it just has pizza and plain spaghetti, would you want to even give that restaurant the time of day? Probably not, even if it's the best pizza and spaghetti in the world there's no real point in going if you don't feel like having pizza or spaghetti, so that limits their audience.

The whole "judge a book by its cover" metaphor is really overused TBF. Yes, it's good to open yourself up to new experiences, but let's not act like this some wild new concept that we've never seen before. It's Pokemon, we know exactly what a Pokemon game is like, so if we see a Pokemon game doing nothing new, especially in areas of the game that we already know we enjoy, there's no real point in waiting around to be surprised if the aspects of the game we like aren't satisfying. And like I said above, there's already limits on what this game can do even without seeing the full picture.
 

Briankelly130

Well-Known Member
Well with that kind of attitude there wouldn't be a game you wouldn't like simply because every game introduces SOMETHING new, if nothing else there's always some kind of new feature thrown in, we already have the Alola Photo Club for this game. But depending on what aspects of the game you enjoy, this game may already not satisfy you. For instance, one of the most important factors to me is region design, and the possibility for new areas to explore has been all but ruled out with the map being so close to the original SM so this game doesn't excite me when we're just going through the same areas all over again. Other people might have wanted to see a sequel for the storyline progression, to see what's happened in the wake of SM's plot and how characters have developed since then. So even without playing the game, certain things have already been ruled out and if you played the game for those things, there's no point in even bothering with the game.



I can't really blame people for being so impatient for new hardware, the nature of the tech industry pretty much conditions people to act that way. Console developers are releasing new hardware every ~5 years and expecting us to shell out a couple of hundred dollars for it. To really justify that kind of purchase they need to show how the games are next gen as well, how they take advantage of the new hardware. This creates a constant expectation that the next game should be better than the last. Combine that with the hyper commercial nature of Western culture and it's easy to see how people want the latest and greatest thing immediately.



More like if a new restaurant is opening and we already know the menu. If an Italian restaurant is opening and you find out it just has pizza and plain spaghetti, would you want to even give that restaurant the time of day? Probably not, even if it's the best pizza and spaghetti in the world there's no real point in going if you don't feel like having pizza or spaghetti, so that limits their audience.

The whole "judge a book by its cover" metaphor is really overused TBF. Yes, it's good to open yourself up to new experiences, but let's not act like this some wild new concept that we've never seen before. It's Pokemon, we know exactly what a Pokemon game is like, so if we see a Pokemon game doing nothing new, especially in areas of the game that we already know we enjoy, there's no real point in waiting around to be surprised if the aspects of the game we like aren't satisfying. And like I said above, there's already limits on what this game can do even without seeing the full picture.

Of course there are games I don't like or games that feel underwhelming to me, I guess what I mean is if there are elements I do like, it kind of helps me ride out that game until the end and in Pokemon's case, it's the lore and story that's buried under the surface, like in OR/AS where you learn about Sea Mauville and the horrible things that went on during it's heyday and that it was attempting to find a way to use actual Pokemon (not their abilities, the Pokemon themselves) as a source of energy and in Alola's case, there's the stuff you see in the Aether Foundation regarding Arceus, the darker implications of Mega Evolution and what happens in the post-game. If Pokemon remained the very same as it was in Gen I and never really attempted to create any sense of backstory or lore or a story outside of "Collect badge, become champion" then I think I would have lost interest years ago but it's all the stuff they added that keeps me playing the games and with every new game or generation, one of my key concerns is how will they advance the overall story. In essence, I love world-building and Pokemon is getting better at that.

Your attitude towards the games being on the 3DS confuses me simply because, what exactly is being lost by the games being on the 3DS? Graphics? More advanced mechanics? What can the Switch add to a Pokemon game other than making it look prettier. Sure they could make a bigger map and more detailed locations but you talk about this as if Sun/Moon were meant to be on the Switch or that Gen VII was meant to be for the Switch but they rushed the games out and had to scale them down. These games tend to be planned a couple of years in advance (just look at the fact that they are planning a Switch game that will come out in 2018/2019) so to think that the games weren't originally planned for the 3DS is a bit absurd. We can't say things were lost because they were on inferior hardware because we don't know what they would have done if going ahead with the Switch in mind and you seem to be under the belief that the game's only existance is for profits (with your talk of planning the release to work alongside the Switch release and thereby making the Pokemon games a Switch flagship game) and while profits will always be one of the main concerns, that's the exact reason why it's on the 3DS. Let's say they released Sun/Moon this year, this November for the Switch, they would be facing lesser sales than usual because there isn't a large amount of the market who owns a Switch, there are people who are probably going to get one for Christmas so they would have to wait until the new year to see sales flourish and as it stands, the Switch is having manufacturing problems and there's a short supply of units so it's that much harder to get one. If Sun/Moon were to release this year then it might end up creating a scenario like the Mini SNES is doing where top priority with people becomes obtaining a Switch and again, with the supply issues, that becomes really messy and on top of that, you still wouldn't see 100% of the sales since again, a majority of the market still doesn't own a Switch. Now if it were on 3DS like it is, you know the market is safe because it's been out for 7/8 years, you know a majority of people own some version of it and so the only thing to worry about it making sure there's enough units of the game itself. Plus since they are now familar with 3DS hardware, they can play around with it, take full advantage of it and push it to it's limits and at the very least, they're comfortable with it whereas with the Switch, one of the hurdles would be understanding how the console works, what they can and can't do and in true Nintendo fashion, how can they take advantage of the gimmicks. In the end, it's much less stressful to just develop a game with hardware you're used to for a market you know is large enough to see 100% of the sales. Plus, you'd have people complaining that they don't have a Switch yet and now they have to spend the money for that /and/ the game and you know how cheap some gamers can be.

I can blame people for being impatient for new hardware, mostly because the whole thing feels like a symbiotic relationship. It's not just developers making people crave the new tech by making it look super sleek and sexy but it's the people who demand that developers keep up with the newest innovations, you have gamers who think consoles are always inferior because they can't be upgraded once their tech becomes outdated, resulting in the likes of Playstation and Xbox now having to release upgraded versions of current consoles with better hardware. Part of me hopes that all it will take is one of these companies to say "Screw it" and not buckle to the pressure of these types of players to see a change where graphics, hardware, FPS and how many teraflops the console has stops becoming the key deciding factor and I think that's a reason I respect Nintendo, they go at their own pace even if it puts them a generation behind and you know what, they still make a crapload of money.

With the restaurant metaphor, you can't say we already know the menu, at least not completely, we know part of the menu but there's a whole other page we haven't seen yet and I'm excited to see that new page. And again, we go back to this problem where you seem to act like you know exactly how this game will play out, how can you know this is a Pokemon game doing nothing new when you haven't seen it yet. I think at this point, you're just another person who's written off US/UM for your own reasons and no amount of explaining will change that although I do ask, if you have made up your mind about the game and you're not that interested, why do you post on this particular thread, are you hoping that someone will say something that will change your outlook on the games or do you just want to prove to people that yes, these games will really suck and underwhelm?
 

future.newyorker

Well-Known Member
I noticed a page or so back people said that the Capture Tutorial in SM was really long, but I don't even remember a Capture Tutorial in SM, can someone give me a heads up as to what/where it was?
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO

Hero of Truth

Lillie Fan
The Pokémon Company (in Japan at least) has posted on its Japanese account a small clip featuring the male player of US/UM in Wela Volcano, particularly where the trial takes place. But once where Kiawe stood, is now fan-favorite Hiker David!

I wonder what this mean? Maybe the trial has moved...?
 

Vipsoccermaster

Well-Known Member
Hiker David is at it again! But seriously, what happened to Kiawe? Has he and perhaps the trial he runs moved elsewhere? Is that Hiker David the new Trial Captain? Doubt it.
 

Wulava

danger chili pepper
Staff member
Moderator
The Pokémon Company (in Japan at least) has posted on its Japanese account a small clip featuring the male player of US/UM in Wela Volcano, particularly where the trial takes place. But once where Kiawe stood, is now fan-favorite Hiker David!

I wonder what this mean? Maybe the trial has moved...?

I personally would like to have the trial locations changed in this game.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Hopefully Kiawe's still around, I'd want Lana, Mina or Hapu replaced if anyone.
I'm hoping we can do more at the volcano this time.... like exploring it further. I was so disappointed at how little we could explore it in Sun/Moon.
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
Perhaps that platform is now an elevator that takes you down to Kiawe, or maybe this is after the trial and Kiawe's somewhere else for a side thing that's about his dream
 

XY&Z Legend

Just chillin
Interesting to see Hiker David at Kiawe's trial. Perhaps the developers liked him so much that they have to bring him back. I would be surprised if he played a much bigger role in the game.
Seeing Hiker David getting the spotlight in Ultra Sun & Moon, I wonder if they will showcase Youngster Tristan or Mina?
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
I hope they do more with Youngster Tristan and Mina, especially Mina. At least let me go to her room and um...read her emotions? I also hope they do something cool if they explain why the trainer seems to read into a person's emotions when laying in the beds...nope still sounds weird
 
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