General Discussion & Speculation Thread

[john90]

I'm not sure how you're getting from people being disappointed over a combination of lack of new info and GF's unpreparedness (and rightfully so, at least in the latter case; we were never promised anything new) to them hating the series outright.

I'm not saying that people are upset for good reasons. But apparently the fact that we have a platinum-like game, the lack of new info and GF's unpreparedness is enough to dislike them. It's in the air since June and it goes worse day by day...We were never promised anything new but at the same time, exactly for this, people are not seeing any good reason to feel the hype about these games or simply buy these games (thing that they will do anyway).
Like I said before the problem are not the games themselves, but the marketng campain, which this time is extremly poor.
The game crashes 3 times in the first live gameplay?. This won't help an already poor promotion and people won't care why that happened. This is my point.

P.s. They announced a switch game coming next year like 10 days after UsUm. This sounded like: "I know you didn't want a third version, but hey next year there'll be a switch game", this is how fans took that, litterally.

 

[Tropios]

I'm not saying that people are upset for good reasons. But apparently the fact that we have a platinum-like game, the lack of new info and GF's unpreparedness is enough to dislike them. It's in the air since June and it goes worse day by day...We were never promised anything new but at the same time, exactly for this, people are not seeing any good reason to feel the hype about these games or simply buy these games (thing that they will do anyway).
Like I said before the problem are not the games themselves, but the marketng campain, which this time is extremly poor.
The game crashes 3 times in the first live gameplay...This does not help. This is my point.

P.s. They announced a switch game coming next year like 10 days after UsUm. This sounded like: "I know you didn't want a third version, but hey next year there'll be a switch game", this is how fans took that, litterally.

The marketing campaign is infinitely better than the one for the last true 'third' version we got aka Platinum. People just aren't used to it anymore, especially after how much SM's marketing campaign spoiled us with bi-weekly updates, which is something you can't really expect for games that don't introduce a new generation.

Also, Switch game is very likely going to take more than 1 year, imo.

 

[john90]

The marketing campaign is infinitely better than the one for the last true 'third' version we got aka Platinum. People just aren't used to it anymore, especially after how much SM's marketing campaign spoiled us with bi-weekly updates, which is something you can't really expect for games that don't introduce a new generation.

Also, Switch game is very likely going to take more than 1 year, imo.

I know...but this sounds like "We don't make announcements because we have really not much to announce". Can you see my point? This Platinum-like thing really sounds like a step back for GF. Ten years past since the last time, there will be players that were not even born when Platinum was released and that are not familiar to this and people who have seen this before just don't want it again...At least this what I see...People are tired to play better version of game that was released last year they want something new now the switch is out and the 3ds looks at the end of his power.

 

[ShadowForce720]

I know...but this sounds like "We don't make announcements because we have really not much to announce". Can you see my point? This Platinum-like thing really sounds like a step back for GF. Ten years past since the last time, there will be players that were not even born when Platinum was released and that are not familiar to this and people who have seen this before just don't want it again...At least this what I see...People are tired to play better version of game that was released last year they want something new now the switch is out and the 3ds looks at the end of his power.

Then here is a radical idea for people that are bothered by it that much, just don't buy the game and skip it instead, after all no one is forcing them to buy the game, at the end of the day it's their choice whether or not they choose to buy the game, but if they still buy the game it would essential imply that that didn't bother them as much as it they said it did, and if they choose to buy they should try to blame Gamefreak or Nintendo for them spending the money on it and saying they wasted money on the game, because at the end of the day it was their choice to get the game.

No matter how you look at it as much as some people complain about Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, and some say they won't buy it at the end of the day a lot of them are just going to buy it anyway.

 

[john90]

Then here is a radical idea for people that are bothered by it that much, just don't buy the game and skip it instead, after all no one is forcing them to buy the game, at the end of the day it's their choice whether or not they choose to buy the game, but if they still buy the game it would essential imply that that didn't bother them as much as it they said it did, and if they choose to buy they should try to blame Gamefreak or Nintendo for them spending the money on it and saying they wasted money on the game, because at the end of the day it was their choice to get the game.

No matter how you look at it as much as some people complain about Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, and some say they won't buy it at the end of the day a lot of them are just going to buy it anyway.

It's not that simple...Competitive players for example are forced to buy the games if they wanna do what they do. This move, now, in 2017, sounds really like "we want to make more money, let's make the same game but better next year". BW2 did a step forward with sequels, Gen 6 completly skip it for remakes, now after 10 years we are back to Platinum. Some fans just think that they could have simply made S/M better games and skip USUM. Marketing is marketing and money is money, true, but they could have done something more original this is certain or at least they coud have tried to look like they trust these games.
Imo, despite the marketing move, I'm happy Necrozma and all the plot in Alola will not receive the Zygarde treatment. I just hope they did not make another uncomplete game like s/m cause that would be terrible, you took the risk to create better versions of games after one year, well let them be really better versions or this will be really the worst waste of money in 10 years.

 

[ShadowForce720]

It's not that simple...Competitive players for example are forced to buy the games if they wanna do what they do. This move, now, in 2017, sounds really like "we want to make more money, let's make the same game but better next year". BW2 did a step forward with sequels, Gen 6 completly skip it for remakes, now after 10 years we are back to Platinum. Some fans just think that they could have simply made S/M better games and skip USUM. Marketing is marketing and money is money, true, but they could have done something more original this is certain or at least they coud have tried to look like they trust these games.
Imo, despite the marketing move, I'm happy Necrozma and all the plot in Alola will not receive the Zygarde treatment. I just hope they did not make another uncomplete game like s/m cause that would be terrible, you took the risk to create better versions of games after one year, well let them be really better versions or this will be really the worst waste of money in 10 years.

And yet despite what all your saying, people that claim to be bothered by it that much will still get the game, so it must not really bother them as much as you say, because you say oh well if competitive players are forced to buy the games because if they wanna do what they do, will tough luck, because no matter how you look at a lot of the people that say this really bothers them but then they still buy the games, which basically at that point they are basically saying they want change but they aren't will to actually do anything to try to cause the change, basically despite all the complaining by choosing spend money on the game their choosing to support what their complaining against it.

Sometimes if you really want change then it's going to come with some sacrifices. Again you say or this will be really the worst waste of money in 10 years, and yet in the end it's still yours and others peoples choice to spend money on that game, so apparently it's not as important to the people saying that it is if they still go out and buy them. People can't expect change to happen if their not willing to work for it.

 

[john90]

And yet despite what all your saying, people that claim to be bothered by it that much will still get the game, so it must not really bother them as much as you say, because you say oh well if competitive players are forced to buy the games because if they wanna do what they do, will tough luck, because no matter how you look at a lot of the people that say this really bothers them but then they still buy the games, which basically at that point they are basically saying they want change but they aren't will to actually do anything to try to cause the change, basically despite all the complaining by choosing spend money on the game their choosing to support what their complaining against it.

Sometimes if you really want change then it's going to come with some sacrifices.

Actually they are free to complain about a game they are gonna buy much more then others that they are not going to. The fact that they are fans does not mean they cannot complain. You don't simply complain about money, fans expect quality and that's more important than what you may think. Let GF have a -10% compared to BW2 or Oras and you'll never see a Platinum again XD

 

[ShadowForce720]

Actually they are free to complain about a game they are gonna buy much more then others that they are not going to. The fact that they are fans does not mean they cannot complain. Let GF have a -10% compared to BW2 or Oras and you'll never see a Platinum again XD

Except that won't happen because a lot of people that are complaining about it now or saying they won't get it will still wind up buying it anyway. Also sure people are free to complain about a game that they buy but if it bothers people so much that they thinking buy the new pokemon game is a waste of money and yet they still choose to buy it anyway then they can't expect anyone to really take their complaints seriously because apparently they don't consider their complaints important enough to stomp them from getting the games.

 

[future.newyorker]

It's not that simple...Competitive players for example are forced to buy the games if they wanna do what they do. This move, now, in 2017, sounds really like "we want to make more money, let's make the same game but better next year". BW2 did a step forward with sequels, Gen 6 completly skip it for remakes, now after 10 years we are back to Platinum. Some fans just think that they could have simply made S/M better games and skip USUM. Marketing is marketing and money is money, true, but they could have done something more original this is certain or at least they coud have tried to look like they trust these games.
Imo, despite the marketing move, I'm happy Necrozma and all the plot in Alola will not receive the Zygarde treatment. I just hope they did not make another uncomplete game like s/m cause that would be terrible, you took the risk to create better versions of games after one year, well let them be really better versions or this will be really the worst waste of money in 10 years.

This is what frustrates me the most, it's when people like you say that not enough has changed, but when you step back and look at everything as a whole, here's where the changes outweigh the nonchanges:

Things that are new/have been hinted at but not elaborated on:

New trials/reworked trials
Four brand new characters that have had no info released about them
What appears to be Lt. Surge's gym (and the fact that an unused gym model was found in a recent datamine of SM a month ago)
Ryuki having a larger role
Kahili teaching us a Z-move at what appears to be Ten Carat Hill
Mantine Surf
The new Z-ring
Kiawe has been confirmed as a trial captain but is oddly missing from his original trial site
New areas on the map that haven't been showcased yet
The Pikachu Park which is missing from the region map
New buildings that aren't the Alola Photo Club
The Alola Photo Club
At least two BRAND NEW Pokémon
Roughly 100 Pokémon being added to the regional dex
New scenes with Hau and Hala
New scenes with Necrozma
The lack of anything Team Skull
Brand new Z-moves
Tougher opponents (as evidenced by Hau having 4 Pokémon at Paniola Town instead of 2, though this could actually indicate a newly reworked order of trials too)
New plot points (as evidenced by the starter selection event amongst other things: see above)
New forms of older Pokémon (Lycanroc and Necrozma so far)

Things that have been CONFIRMED to stay the same:

A few plot points involving Lille
The scene at Aether with Lusamine and Hau (although if it is still Nihilego to come out of the portal has NOT been confirmed)

So when taken and looked at like this, it baffles me that people can still say that we don't know enough/this game hasn't changed enough from SM, when clearly the new things revealed and changed things revealed vastly outweighs the the things that have been revealed to be the same.

 

[john90]

Except that won't happen because a lot of people that are complaining about it now or saying they won't get it will still wind up buying it anyway. Also sure people are free to complain about a game that they buy but if it bothers people so much that they thinking buy the new pokemon game is a waste of money and yet they still choose to buy it anyway then they can't expect anyone to really take their complaints seriously because apparently they don't consider their complaints important enough to stomp them from getting the games.

I never said you have to take them seriously. They complain cause these games were not what they expected. They are free to do it even if they'll buy the game.

This is what frustrates me the most, it's when people like you say that not enough has changed, but when you step back and look at everything as a whole, here's where the changes outweigh the nonchanges:

Things that are new/have been hinted at but not elaborated on:

New trials/reworked trials
Four brand new characters that have had no info released about them
What appears to be Lt. Surge's gym (and the fact that an unused gym model was found in a recent datamine of SM a month ago)
Ryuki having a larger role
Kahili teaching us a Z-move at what appears to be Ten Carat Hill
Mantine Surf
The new Z-ring
Kiawe has been confirmed as a trial captain but is oddly missing from his original trial site
New areas on the map that haven't been showcased yet
The Pikachu Park which is missing from the region map
New buildings that aren't the Alola Photo Club
The Alola Photo Club
At least two BRAND NEW Pokémon
Roughly 100 Pokémon being added to the regional dex
New scenes with Hau and Hala
New scenes with Necrozma
The lack of anything Team Skull
Brand new Z-moves
Tougher opponents (as evidenced by Hau having 4 Pokémon at Paniola Town instead of 2, though this could actually indicate a newly reworked order of trials too)
New plot points (as evidenced by the starter selection event amongst other things: see above)
New forms of older Pokémon (Lycanroc and Necrozma so far)

Things that have been CONFIRMED to stay the same:

A few plot points involving Lille
The scene at Aether with Lusamine and Hau (although if it is still Nihilego to come out of the portal has NOT been confirmed)

So when taken and looked at like this, it baffles me that people can still say that we don't know enough/this game hasn't changed enough from SM, when clearly the new things revealed and changed things revealed vastly outweighs the the things that have been revealed to be the same.

You have to see things like this: Why they did not just create UsUm instead of giving us S/M and then make the same game better next year? Cause the four games were all coded in the same period, so they deliberatly did s/m that way because of Usum. What I'm trying to point out is that people are a bit tired of this strategy, which is obvious a marketing choice. We are no more in 2008, the 3ds cannot even stand a double battle anymore, you understand that people have to buy a game for a console they won't use anymore next year? A game that is just a better vrsion of a game they already have.
I undestand your point guys, really. You're right in a way but people who complain have their good points too.

 

[Nerdy McNerdface]

You have to see things like this: Why they did not just create UsUm instead of giving us S/M and then make the same game better next year? Cause the four games were all coded in the same period, so they deliberatly did s/m that way because of Usum. What I'm trying to point out is that people are a bit tired of this strategy, which is obvious a marketing choice. We are no more in 2008, the 3ds cannot even stand a double battle anymore, you understand that people have to buy a game for a console they won't use anymore next year? A game that is just a better vrsion of a game they already have.
I undestand your point guys, really. You're right in a way but people who complain have their good points too.

The thing is, it's entirely possible that a plot point involving the parallel universes and Ultra Wormholes requires knowledge of SM for it to make more sense in context. Say that events from SM are referenced in USUM somehow. It's not necessarily definite, but it's possible considering how the parallel universes are a heavy theme.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

This is what frustrates me the most, it's when people like you say that not enough has changed, but when you step back and look at everything as a whole, here's where the changes outweigh the nonchanges:

Things that are new/have been hinted at but not elaborated on:

New trials/reworked trials
Four brand new characters that have had no info released about them
What appears to be Lt. Surge's gym (and the fact that an unused gym model was found in a recent datamine of SM a month ago)
Ryuki having a larger role
Kahili teaching us a Z-move at what appears to be Ten Carat Hill
Mantine Surf
The new Z-ring
Kiawe has been confirmed as a trial captain but is oddly missing from his original trial site
New areas on the map that haven't been showcased yet
The Pikachu Park which is missing from the region map
New buildings that aren't the Alola Photo Club
The Alola Photo Club
At least two BRAND NEW Pokémon
Roughly 100 Pokémon being added to the regional dex
New scenes with Hau and Hala
New scenes with Necrozma
The lack of anything Team Skull
Brand new Z-moves
Tougher opponents (as evidenced by Hau having 4 Pokémon at Paniola Town instead of 2, though this could actually indicate a newly reworked order of trials too)
New plot points (as evidenced by the starter selection event amongst other things: see above)
New forms of older Pokémon (Lycanroc and Necrozma so far)

Things that have been CONFIRMED to stay the same:

A few plot points involving Lille
The scene at Aether with Lusamine and Hau (although if it is still Nihilego to come out of the portal has NOT been confirmed)

So when taken and looked at like this, it baffles me that people can still say that we don't know enough/this game hasn't changed enough from SM, when clearly the new things revealed and changed things revealed vastly outweighs the the things that have been revealed to be the same.

It's the things that are unconfirmed, but unlikely to happen due to the marketing, that are putting people off to this game. And that basically boils down to the decision to revert to third versions and the apparent regression in the storyline and region design as a result. BW2 was such a dramatic step forward compared to third versions, especially in those two aspects of the game, that it's difficult to really come back from that. Yes, USUM does offer changes in those areas, but not as much as people really wanted. The storyline might have a slightly different ending with the Necrozma stuff, but with the amount of content being shown that's the same and the emphasis on this being an alternate universe over a sequel, it's more likely that the storyline plays out mostly the same way throughout most of the game. And the new areas that are being shown aren't particularly significant, there aren't any new routes or new cities or any major areas being shown and the map, which gives us an absurd amount of detail in the design of the region, is showing a largely similar map with minor changes here and there. The new additions to the region are coming off as more like Emerald than BW2, minor extras sprinkled here and there but not the huge increase in region mass people wanted. It's not just what's been confirmed. The marketing itself is pretty suspect because if these kinds of changes were present in the game they'd be showing them off now but they're not.

 

[john90]

The thing is, it's entirely possible that a plot point involving the parallel universes and Ultra Wormholes requires knowledge of SM for it to make more sense in context. Say that events from SM are referenced in USUM somehow. It's not necessarily definite, but it's possible considering how the parallel universes are a heavy theme.

UsUm are not sequels. This means we have never heard of UBs, multiverse and stuff like this before. We have to go through all the plot again. The s/m plot has never existed in the world of us/um and I don't think there'll be reference to it

 

[Bolt the Cat]

You have to see things like this: Why they did not just create UsUm instead of giving us S/M and then make the same game better next year? Cause the four games were all coded in the same period, so they deliberatly did s/m that way because of Usum. What I'm trying to point out is that people are a bit tired of this strategy, which is obvious a marketing choice. We are no more in 2008, the 3ds cannot even stand a double battle anymore, you understand that people have to buy a game for a console they won't use anymore next year? A game that is just a better vrsion of a game they already have.
I undestand your point guys, really. You're right in a way but people who complain have their good points too.

More than this though. It's not just "Why did they create this game?" but it's also "Why are sequels not the new standard by now?". Considering how sequels offer the same kinds of improvements as third versions with the added bonus of more changes to the storyline and region design, why would they even bother to go back to third versions? Sequels just have so much more potential. Or if they're insistent on "surprising people", do something completely different that offers the same improvements. This is the kind of "surprises" that people hate, when they remove something that they liked from the previous games for the sake of doing things different. Only this time it's on a game wide scale and the issue is magnified by 1000.

 

[Thure]

UsUm are not sequels. This means we have never heard of UBs, multiverse and stuff like this before. We have to go through all the plot again. The s/m plot has never existed in the world of us/um and I don't think there'll be reference to it

We the PLAYER heard of it.

 

[Tropios]

UsUm are not sequels. This means we have never heard of UBs, multiverse and stuff like this before. We have to go through all the plot again. The s/m plot has never existed in the world of us/um and I don't think there'll be reference to it

He's not implying they're sequels though. It seems highly unlikely to me that in a generation where the storyline entirely revolves around alternate dimensions, that they will pull a 'SM's story never existed in USUM' without even the slightest mention. I'm willing to bet right here, right now, that it's gonna be a parallel universe situation.

I do see the point that this seems like a step back from BW2, but for all we know the story is drastically different with only a few similar elements due to some different dimension situation and while Bolt pointed out that we got a highly detailed map that didn't seem to contain many new areas, he seems to be forgetting the fact that Pikachu Valley is nowhere to be found on it, who knows what surprises are in store for us. It could still swing both ways, either way I'm gonna enjoy it!

 

[Akashin]

More than this though. It's not just "Why did they create this game?" but it's also "Why are sequels not the new standard by now?". Considering how sequels offer the same kinds of improvements as third versions with the added bonus of more changes to the storyline and region design, why would they even bother to go back to third versions? Sequels just have so much more potential. Or if they're insistent on "surprising people", do something completely different that offers the same improvements. This is the kind of "surprises" that people hate, when they remove something that they liked from the previous games for the sake of doing things different. Only this time it's on a game wide scale and the issue is magnified by 1000.

Honestly, I can't think of many things I'd want less than for sequels to become any sort of new standard. It worked great with BW2 and there was more than enough room for it to have worked here had they wanted to go that route, but the idea of getting sequels time after time after time just sounds horrible. I'm all for branching out and away from third versions for more ambitious things, but not if it means replacing one style of game that's been done to death with another that eventually would be as well. I can't say I'm very fond of the idea of setting a standard of writing every generation with there being eventual sequels for them in mind, either.

BW2 were great not just because they were sequels, but because of the content. And a fair amount of that content didn't necessitate them being sequels, per se.

I do see the point that this seems like a step back from BW2, but for all we know the story is drastically different with only a few similar elements due to some different dimension situation and while Bolt pointed out that we got a highly detailed map that didn't seem to contain many new areas, he seems to be forgetting the fact that Pikachu Valley is nowhere to be found on it, who knows what surprises are in store for us. It could still swing both ways, either way I'm gonna enjoy it!

Not to mention that any interaction with Ultra Space (which seems to be a thing if the glimpse of what looked like it could be Kartana's corner of Ultra Space is any indication) wouldn't be on the map, either.

 

[Orphalesion]

So unless there are new Alolan forms, I'm definitely not getting USUM and I'm not just saying that. Except for Yellow and B2, I never got any of the third versions.

As to the innovations:

This is what frustrates me the most, it's when people like you say that not enough has changed, but when you step back and look at everything as a whole, here's where the changes outweigh the nonchanges:

Things that are new/have been hinted at but not elaborated on:

New trials/reworked trials <That's mildly interesting
Four brand new characters that have had no info released about them< Don't really care about 4 new human characters
What appears to be Lt. Surge's gym (and the fact that an unused gym model was found in a recent datamine of SM a month ago)<Don't care about a recreation of a Kanto gym
Ryuki having a larger role<Never cared for Ryuki
Kahili teaching us a Z-move at what appears to be Ten Carat Hill<Don't care
Mantine Surf<Doesn't really look that entertaining to me and I'd probably do it like once
The new Z-ringWow it's black now, what a difference!*rolleyes*
Kiawe has been confirmed as a trial captain but is oddly missing from his original trial site<So?
New areas on the map that haven't been showcased yet <Unless there's a fossil pokemon park among those areas, I doubt they'll interest me that much
The Pikachu Park which is missing from the region map< Yes I'm really so endlessly interested in a park dedicated to the yellow pissrat
New buildings that aren't the Alola Photo Club<See above
The Alola Photo Club<Cute feature, but I'd rather have a sequel to Snap
At least two BRAND NEW Pokémon<Which are Ultra Beasts...
Roughly 100 Pokémon being added to the regional dex<Thew option to catch old Pokemon now in Alola doesn't really excite me
New scenes with Hau and Hala< wooo....?
New scenes with NecrozmaThat's mildly interesting, but not gonna get the game just for that
The lack of anything Team SkullWe'll have to see what's going on there...
Brand new Z-moves<Meh....
Tougher opponents (as evidenced by Hau having 4 Pokémon at Paniola Town instead of 2, though this could actually indicate a newly reworked order of trials too)Okay that is interesting.
New plot points (as evidenced by the starter selection event amongst other things: see above)As long as it isn't a completely new story, it's not that interesting
New forms of older Pokémon (Lycanroc and Necrozma so far)< One of which is tied to a promotion and the other is a legendary...

 

[magma grunt edu]

well, that was an interesting appearance at milan games week. They battled once and when they tried a second time, a lot of technical difficulties didn't allow them to continue. That was disappointing...

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Honestly, I can't think of many things I'd want less than for sequels to become any sort of new standard. It worked great with BW2 and there was more than enough room for it to have worked here had they wanted to go that route, but the idea of getting sequels time after time after time just sounds horrible. I'm all for branching out and away from third versions for more ambitious things, but not if it means replacing one style of game that's been done to death with another that eventually would be as well. I can't say I'm very fond of the idea of setting a standard of writing every generation with there being eventual sequels for them in mind, either.

BW2 were great not just because they were sequels, but because of the content. And a fair amount of that content didn't necessitate them being sequels, per se.

Pretty sure you're in the minority here. I've never heard anyone dislike the third version formula because it's been repeated multiple times, the criticism is more than you're buying another copy of basically the same game with a few bells and whistles. Even if they do 4 more sequels, it wouldn't be as repetitive because sequels simply offer more creative freedom. Also the issue of writing with a sequel in mind wouldn't really be any worse than the idea of writing with an updated version in mind. More sequels can only be an improvement.