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General Dr. Who Thread

The Doctor

Absolute Beginner
I myself found the Slitheen arc to be rather dumb. But I used that as an example to refer back when Doctor Who had a mildly satirical nature, and was made rather cheesily. Now the series itself is way too serious.
Doctor Who hasn't really dipped its toe into satire that often. There's The Curse of Peladon, an allegory exploring the issue of whether Britain should join the EU, The Sun Makers might be a comment on increased taxation, Vengeance on Varos came about during the video nasty scare, and of course The Happiness Patrol was a big slap against Margaret Thatcher that was so smug and pleased with itself about it.

I'd be hesitant before including The Long Game and other RTD-penned episodes about reality TV as "satire", though. There's no insightful commentary, no real criticism, it's just basically modern reality TV but made more extreme. Over 200,000 years, you're telling me Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear will survive in the exact same format with robot versions of long-dead presenters? They're there because a modern audience will recognise it. RTD was concerned with keeping the show up to date, and felt that introducing modern issues and topics were the way to go, with a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour.

I don't think you'd ever call the Slitheen "satirical". Unless they were a very sophisticated parody of godawful monster designs and effects that just went over everybody's heads.

The best Doctor, as anyone knows, is Jon Pertwee. Now there was a Doctor who dressed like a don, was not afraid to smack people about, and got things done, man. The getup they've given Capaldi reminds me of the Third's dress sense, so if this means we get to see Malcolm Tucker travelling across space punching aliens in the face, then Moffat is the best thing to ever happen to the show.
 

Firebrand

Indomitable
I couldn't agree more with this statement. Daleks were TERRIFYING in the OS. Watching Genesis of the Daleks is genuinely one of the scariest experiences I've ever had with television.

Now? Daleks just...are kinda comical? And WHAT WAS WITH the flying Daleks in the Christmas special? It became Star Wars. It was bad.

I think that Moffat wrote a lot of good stuff for the RTD-era, when he just wrote an episode here or there (The Girl in the Fireplace and The Empty Child are both pretty fantastic.) But as a showrunner...I think he's forgotten what makes Who, Who. I think he doesn't quite know what separates the Doctor from Sherlock Holmes. Those are NOT characters who should be interchangeable, but somehow under Moffat's reign that's exactly what's happened.

I DID very much like Amy and Rory. Clara has been so generic. When I watch Tom Baker's episodes...he had the best run of companions, imo. Sarah Jane, Harry Sullivan, K-9, LEELA, Romana I and II, all had wonderful and unique dynamics with the Doctor.
I don't think the Daleks have been a credible threat since like... Bad Wolf. It's just like, okay, so they've got the Doctor outnumbered 10 to one (or 10 million to one) and every time he hands their asses to them in about 5 minutes. The lone Dalek in the Eccleston episode Dalek did more damage than the entire race could pull in the entirety of series 7.

I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this is, but judging from a few other posts here, I guess I'm not entirely alone: Moffat needs to go, and fast. I've been underwhelmed with most of the episodes he's written in his tenure as showrunner. The problem is that he can write a kind of interesting monster because monsters have no need of backstory, but when he has to write actual human characters he is just completely incapable. I really didn't like the 50th anniversary or the Christmas special because he's playing fast and loose with the whole timey-wimey thing, and I felt really cheated when he made Gallifrey just in a parallel universe. It felt really cheap and just... bad. It just seems like he's writing an amateur fanfiction as opposed to a TV serial.
 

The Doctor

Absolute Beginner
I really didn't like the 50th anniversary or the Christmas special because he's playing fast and loose with the whole timey-wimey thing, and I felt really cheated when he made Gallifrey just in a parallel universe. It felt really cheap and just... bad. It just seems like he's writing an amateur fanfiction as opposed to a TV serial.
People who have wrote for Doctor Who, like Paul Cornell, have freely admitted the continuity of the show doesn't matter. The BBC have never actually stated what is "canon" and what isn't. You think RTD cared when he made the Master a giggling psychopath who was deliberately made a psychopath by the Time Lords? Or that he made the Time Lords an evil on par with the Daleks rather than a bunch of alien bureaucrats? There's only what you think works and what doesn't.

(Also every Doctor ever saving Gallifrey was just a perfect summary of what the Doctor does.)

Here's a good quote from here:

Not giving a toss about how it all fits together is one of Doctor Who’s oldest, proudest traditions, a strength of the series. (And a No Prize to the person who points out the first ever continuity error in the original series.) It’s allowed infinite change, and never left the show crunched into a corner after all the dramatic options had already been done. Terrible continuity equals infinitely flexible format. It’s indefinability that results in that old ‘indefinable magic’. Much in the same way that there’s no one definition of what a ‘Doctor Who companion’ is that includes all of them, and so a new one can be whatever works.
 

SailorSketch

Pixel Mage
My second favorite series of all time, words can't truly describe it.

I've seen bits and pieces of the older episodes, but I'm not usually one for classic tv; however I do make exceptions.

Matt is by far my top Doc and David a close second, maybe that's because they're the ones I've seen the most of, but still.
 

shadcat1206

in the shadows i lie
theres one thing which always confused me though. in day of the doctor when all the doctors fly into gallifrey why was capaldi's doctor shown. i know that bbc would not have the chance to find the next doctor but i was confused as does that mean there are only 12 doctors( or 14, going by doctor who logic) or else they would have been in the scene
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
theres one thing which always confused me though. in day of the doctor when all the doctors fly into gallifrey why was capaldi's doctor shown. i know that bbc would not have the chance to find the next doctor but i was confused as does that mean there are only 12 doctors( or 14, going by doctor who logic) or else they would have been in the scene
Because at 12's point in time, the stasis cube likely finished it's centuries worth of calculations.

Also, Amy, River and Clara are far more complex as characters than Rose, Martha and Donna (as much as I loved them) could ever hope to be, Moffat's writing tops RTD's in almost every aspect, his writing is very feminist-friendly and he get the show far more than RTD ever has.

P.S. Vastra and Jenny ROCK!

 
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shadcat1206

in the shadows i lie
Because at 12's point in time, the stasis cube likely finished it's centuries worth of calculations.

Also, Amy, River and Clara are far more complex as characters than Rose, Martha and Donna (as much as I loved them) could ever hope to be, Moffat's writing tops RTD's in almost every aspect, his writing is very feminist-friendly and he get the show far more than RTD ever has.

P.S. Vastra and Jenny ROCK!

ha, never thought this would have been replied to so soon, but it does make sense
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member

Firebrand

Indomitable
The issue I have with Moffat is that more and more often, the Doctor saves the day with plot holes you could drive a truck through.

For example: The Doctor ran into Oswin, and then later Victorian England!Clara because she jumped into his timestream on Trenzalore, which provoked his search for the actual Clara, which meant he found her so that she could jump into his time stream on Trenzalore and therefore create the stable time loop. Except that now he didn't die on Trenzalore so... like, that couldn't happen. I felt cheated when it was revealed Gallifrey was "just hiding", because, okay, so the Doctor doesn't remember that it was saved but it really does cheapen all his development and coming to terms-ness with it. I thought the Weeping Angels in Blink were properly terrifying and a good villain. With each time they've returned, however, I've been less and less impressed to the point where I think they're just as ridiculous as the Daleks but for different reasons. They were given Villain Sue powers in the wreck of the Byzantium, and I just find it impossible to take them seriously anymore. Sure, the Statue of Liberty being an angel has a shock factor until you think about it for five seconds. What did it actually do except show up behind the apartment building to freak out the audience? And are you seriously trying to tell me that no one, at all, in densely populated New York City, on the heavily built up coast where the Statue of Liberty is visible, was looking across the water at the time? I'm not saying that the whole show has to make sense, but I am saying that Moffat is one of the leading reasons people now say "You can't apply logic to Doctor Who" because, discounting some techno-babble and Buffyspeak, in the RTD era, you could.

And to the people who say Moffat is better at female characters, let's take stock, shall we?

Amy displayed very little (verging on no) agency in Series 5, redeemed herself slightly in Series 6. To be honest, I liked Amy in Series 6, but felt she overstayed her welcome and was verging on Creator's Pet status. I just wish she had been written out of designated-damsel-in-distress a little earlier.

River Song is a sassy character who is trigger happy. She was genetically engineered to kill the Doctor and her entire existence revolves completely around her relationship with the Doctor. There is a distinct difference between a female character who has a romantic relationship with another main character and a female character who exists to have a relationship with another main character, the difference being one has the potential to be a strong female character and the other doesn't really. Trigger happy and snappy commentary do not make a strong female character make.

Clara is, in short, a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a skirt that's a bit too tight. That's it. That's her character. Also some business about a leaf and souffles. :/

Now, in the RTD era, we had Martha, an independent woman well on her way to becoming a doctor in her own right who managed to survive on a war-torn world entirely on her own for a year when her life was constantly at risk. She kept her loose-cannon Doctor firmly grounded and reined in his jerkass tendencies frequently. When the time came, she left him on her own terms and moved on with her life. That's agency.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
Somebody clearly hasn't watch "The End of Time," "Last of the Time Lords" or "Journey's End."
 

Tropios

':o Me is stinky??'
I agree with most of matt's statements. Moffat may create some plot holes, but half of them don't even require an explanation when you think about them for a while and the other half he'll probably explain later on (The Time of The Doctor, anyone?). RTD just avoided plot holes with deus ex machinas that were often on the edge of embarrassing. I mean, the flying Jesus Doctor at the end of series 3 just made me cringe.

I don't see how River existing the way she is solely because of the Doctor is an issue at all, in fact, it's what makes her storyline one of my favorites. RTD's best companion was Donna and she was absolutely marvelous, but he failed to give Rose and Martha decent character development. They had a crush on the Doctor and that was it really. I liked them both, don't get me wrong, but the whole Doctor-Rose romance was quite tacky. They were like cheesy teens in a Disney Channel movie.

And don't get me started on Micky.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of matt's statements. Moffat may create some plot holes, but half of them don't even require an explanation when you think about them for a while and the other half he'll probably explain later on (The Time of The Doctor, anyone?). RTD just avoided plot holes with deus ex machinas that were often on the edge of embarrassing. I mean, the flying Jesus Doctor at the end of series 3 just made me cringe.
Yeah, I admire how Moffat doesn't give us information so heavy-handedly and even has viewers connecting the dots, something I think makes for a great TV show.

And yeah, flying Jesus Doctor was just... wow. Though honestly, they could've handle it much better.

I don't see how River existing the way she is solely because of the Doctor is an issue at all, in fact, it's what makes her storyline one of my favorites.
Yeah, watching Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead now makes it so much more meaningful knowing who she really is.

And don't even get me started on Moffat's woman being obsessed with the Doctor. HAVE YOU SEEN ROSE AND DONNA (the former of whom used a dimensional cannon to simply find the Doctor, putting both dimensions at risk)?

Furthermore, the whole mystery with Clara was that she was totally ordinary and then went into the Doctor's timestream to save her friend (not lover, FRIEND). Even then, she is SO MUCH MORE than that.

River Song became an archeologist and fought off years of brainwashing by searching for the good things the Doctor has done (A.K.A. a good man). She and the Doctor legitimately loved each other in spite of their weird, timey-wimey relationship (that I feel isn't over yet).

Amy Pond choose her life with Rory over the Doctor after two and a half seasons of being torn between them, something I can't see her doing in "The Eleventh Hour."

Jeez louise, I get that the Moffat era is not for everybody but for god's sake, the accusations thrown at him are just mind-numbingly bad, worthy of the tabloids even. Worst part is that these people should be smarter than this.
 
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Tropios

':o Me is stinky??'
The 'candy doll' argument in that last one made me giggle. Maybe Donna wasn't very candy doll-ish, but Rose definitely makes up for that.

I don't get why people think the Moffat companions have no life without the Doctor when they are the only ones that aren't continually with him from the start to the end of their run.

Also RTD killing of the Time Lords was an annoying cop out. Glad that's fixed now. Although I don't get the complaints about 'they're just hiding in some pocket universe' that started after The Time of The Doctor. Like didn't they state that was going to happen when they saved it in the anniversary? If not, where else would they expect it to be? Just somewhere in the universe? The Daleks would have tracked it in no time.
 

indigohex

Well-Known Member
It may be a couple of months late, but I still remember the Twelfth Doctor (played by Peter Capaldi) asking Clara if she knew how to pilot the TARDIS in the recent Christmas episode. One of the funniest moments ever. I am looking forward to seeing how Peter Capaldi goes.

My favourite episodes has to be The Stolen Earth and Journey's End (which crossed over with spin-offs Torchwood, which I love, and The Sarah Jane Adventures). And Peter Capaldi has been in Torchwood: Children of Earth, as well as "The Fires of Pompeii", so he is no stranger to the Doctor Who universe.
 
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matt0044

Well-Known Member
It may be a couple of months late, but I still remember the Twelfth Doctor (played by Peter Capaldi) asking Clara if she knew how to pilot the TARDIS in the recent Christmas episode. One of the funniest moments ever. I am looking forward to seeing how Peter Capaldi goes.
It's likely because the Doctor was on Trenzalore for centuries, letting his body wear thin. Then again, him hardly knowing how to fly the TARDIS isn't very surprising...

My favourite episodes has to be The Stolen Earth and Journey's End (which crossed over with spin-offs Torchwood, which I love, and The Sarah Jane Adventures).
I kinda feel like those episodes were good but it was... weird (like the whole Meta-crisis thing). Not to mention, it could've used a better characterization of Rose...

Oh, and can we just stop with the whole "Don't you think he looks tired?" jab at Moffat as it comes from an RTD episode where Ten got Harriet Jones out of office with a SEXIST remark (granted, it wasn't meant to be a good thing in-show). Hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
 
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matt0044

Well-Known Member

The Doctor

Absolute Beginner
Now, in the RTD era, we had Martha, an independent woman well on her way to becoming a doctor in her own right who managed to survive on a war-torn world entirely on her own for a year when her life was constantly at risk. She kept her loose-cannon Doctor firmly grounded and reined in his jerkass tendencies frequently. When the time came, she left him on her own terms and moved on with her life. That's agency.
This would be fine if RTD actually gave her more characterisation than "has crush on Doctor". Seriously, every episode had at least one scene where she pines for him, an impression not helped by how much the Doctor kept bringing up Rose. Rose cast a long shadow over Martha, making her seem like a pale imitation of The One True Companion. And even after the series, what happens? She allies with Torchwood for nothing that their resident medical expert couldn't already do, gets kidnapped by Sontarans, cloned, gets saved by the Doctor, becomes dead weight to an army of fishmen (fishmen who can drown on land apparently), gets made a fool out of by Davros, then marries Mickey despite being engaged to another dude, sapping her of her independence.

Also, RTD turned a woman into a literal sex object in Love and Monsters. If you want to complain about Moffat, consider: none of his variations on one female character were turned into faces on paving slabs who could only look forward to pleasing their man for the rest of her life.
 

foxyman1167

From Zero To Hero
Just came here to say how much it irks me when someone writes the show title as Dr. Who instead of Doctor Who, I don't know why it does.

I've watched the entire new Who from 9 up through the latest episode (and the occasional classic Who on Netflix), and I have to say, I really am not a fan of Moffat any more, he seems to rely far too heavily on paradoxes and changing time streams to answer all his problems. Look at the entire arc with 11 and River Song in the Space suit, Amy's baby, and Rory being more than two centuries old.

And don't even mention the 50th, which in my opinion, completely ruined what made 9 so great. Suddenly the wiping out of all the Time Lords and Daleks has no meaning, and everything 9 did and said has less emotional weight, and we're supposed to be on board with it just because everyone other than 11 forgot they "fixed" the problem.

He also did a bad job on series 3 of Sherlock
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
I've watched the entire new Who from 9 up through the latest episode (and the occasional classic Who on Netflix), and I have to say, I really am not a fan of Moffat any more, he seems to rely far too heavily on paradoxes and changing time streams to answer all his problems. Look at the entire arc with 11 and River Song in the Space suit, Amy's baby, and Rory being more than two centuries old.
A show about a Time Traveling exploring what can be done with the concept? Stop the presses!

And don't even mention the 50th, which in my opinion, completely ruined what made 9 so great. Suddenly the wiping out of all the Time Lords and Daleks has no meaning, and everything 9 did and said has less emotional weight, and we're supposed to be on board with it just because everyone other than 11 forgot they "fixed" the problem.
Sorry, you think that, bro.

Though honestly, it puts Nine's story arc in a more bittersweet view. And am I the only one who thought that the Doctor's man-pain over losing Gallifrey was getting overdone? This gives us many opportunities with the Time Lords back.
 
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matt0044

Well-Known Member
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