Getting tired of seeing Ash treated like underdog in every series post battle frontier

[Pokemonfan5]

An overdog in every region is perfect storytelling though, right?

This forum needs to get control of its power fantasizing

Not asking Ash to become unstoppable trainer who won't lose any battles but at least stop giving him forced losses which happen too much in DP and BW or give him some recognition for what he achieved in his journey which seriously stop happening after BF

 

[k6666]

Honestly only in BW he being treated like underdog, Final Gym With 6vs3 , Lose full battle to Cameron, never win any don tournament in Unova , that how underdog He is in BW

I don’t really see ash as underdog post that , He being praised and many look up to Him in XY, SM and even JN

I kinda miss him being underdog tbh

 

[Pokemonfan5]

Honestly only in BW he being treated like underdog, Final Gym With 6vs3 , Lose full battle to Cameron, never win any don tournament in Unova , that how underdog He is in BW

I don’t really see ash as underdog post that , He being praised and many look up to Him in XY, SM and even JN

I kinda miss him being underdog tbh

Ash in DP forced to lose too many battles as well, yes BW has most amount of embarrassing losses which everyone agree here so i don't think I need to mention them,

In DP he seriously lose to first gym leader like a fodder trainer just because Paul is watching their battle while he did far better in AG against Roxanne where Pikachu didn't even master iron tail until last moment, he lose to random trainers multiple times specially against that Raichu who almost killed his Pikachu why? Because Paul is watching their battle as well this is something not even champions come close to do, the amount of time Ash lose against gym leaders in DP is higher than other series after Kanto, Ash seriously lose against a wild water type buizel with his electric type Pikachu, he even lose to Kenny out of all the characters

I'm only mentioning forced or bullsh*t losses in DP not every losses like against Paul and E4

Also the fact that DP is the series which stop giving Ash any recognition from other characters and later series followed that because Ash has to be an underdog

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I honestly don’t like how most gym battles are close (we need more like Ash vs Wake and more 2-0 wins) and how Ash's Pikachu looses in a lot of them because he’s way more powerful. Also I feel like Ash is forced to make shitty mistakes

 

[AZ-the-I-don't-even-know]

I honestly don’t like how most gym battles are close (we need more like Ash vs Wake and more 2-0 wins) and how Ash's Pikachu looses in a lot of them because he’s way more powerful. Also I feel like Ash is forced to make shitty mistakes

Yeah, if Ash loses it is usually 0-2 or 0-3 or whatever. He needs to win that way.

 

[Mythical-Moonlight]

Ash hasn't been the Underdog for the last 3 Generations wtf are you actually talking about?

 

[DayQuil95]

Ash in DP forced to lose too many battles as well, yes BW has most amount of embarrassing losses which everyone agree here so i don't think I need to mention them,

In DP he seriously lose to first gym leader like a fodder trainer just because Paul is watching their battle while he did far better in AG against Roxanne where Pikachu didn't even master iron tail until last moment, he lose to random trainers multiple times specially against that Raichu who almost killed his Pikachu why? Because Paul is watching their battle as well this is something not even champions come close to do, the amount of time Ash lose against gym leaders in DP is higher than other series after Kanto, Ash seriously lose against a wild water type buizel with his electric type Pikachu, he even lose to Kenny out of all the characters

I'm only mentioning forced or bullsh*t losses in DP not every losses like against Paul and E4

Also the fact that DP is the series which stop giving Ash any recognition from other characters and later series followed that because Ash has to be an underdog

IIrc against Kenny there was some kind of justification since he was experiencing Flint's battling style and evidently didn't take the fight as seriously, it seemed more like an opportunity for him to test something new as there weren't any big stakes in-game for his side.
As for the gym battles, yeah, for everything DP did right it for sure had a problem in terms of keeping the consistency for that aspect. Some members of his team just were cast aside in order for Infernape to shine more, which's something I personally disliked.

 

[Pokemonfan5]

IIrc against Kenny there was some kind of justification since he was experiencing Flint's battling style and evidently didn't take the fight as seriously, it seemed more like an opportunity for him to test something new as there weren't any big stakes in-game for his side.
As for the gym battles, yeah, for everything DP did right it for sure had a problem in terms of keeping the consistency for that aspect. Some members of his team just were cast aside in order for Infernape to shine more, which's something I personally disliked.

I have more of a personal problem because I hate Kenny and buizel was getting disrespect alot after Fantina gym battle, Ash already learned that he has his own battle style from Anabel episode when he tried to copy her, this thing happen again in Korrina gym battle where Ash learned same thing that he don't need to copy Tierno battle style

This one thing for some reason Ash forget in almost every series and need to learn again

 

[DayQuil95]

I have more of a personal problem because I hate Kenny and buizel was getting disrespect alot after Fantina gym battle, Ash already learned that he has his own battle style from Anabel episode when he tried to copy her, this thing happen again in Korrina gym battle where Ash learned same thing that he don't need to copy Tierno battle style

This one thing for some reason Ash forget in almost every series and need to learn again

That's entirely fair. I won't deny that Ash keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over when he should be an Elite-level trainer by now.

 

[beanDude]

It's funny because this is the reason why a year ago I quit watching the anime. I started Black and White and in the very first episode, Ash's Pikachu loses to a starter Pokemon someone just got from Juniper. I mean even with Pikachu unable to use electrical abilities and giving the writers the benefit of the doubt and assuming Pikachu is in a weakened state, ...really? It really felt like a different writing team took over or something... I mean just two episodes ago didn't Ash take down a Darkrai and a Latios? It's taken about a year for me to regain interest in watching past Diamond and Pearl.

 

[AZ-the-I-don't-even-know]

Ash's Pikachu loses to a starter Pokemon someone just got from Juniper.

One of the most rage-inducing Ash moments, though less so than the Indigo League.

 

[DayQuil95]

It's funny because this is the reason why a year ago I quit watching the anime. I started Black and White and in the very first episode, Ash's Pikachu loses to a starter Pokemon someone just got from Juniper. I mean even with Pikachu unable to use electrical abilities and giving the writers the benefit of the doubt and assuming Pikachu is in a weakened state, ...really? It really felt like a different writing team took over or something... I mean just two episodes ago didn't Ash take down a Darkrai and a Latios? It's taken about a year for me to regain interest in watching past Diamond and Pearl.

Let's just pretend 90% of Best Wishes was a fever dream.

 

[beanDude]

Just to clarify, I actually like Ash as a character because of his flaws. I always enjoyed seeing him lose to gym leaders and have to rethink his strategy. That's right, I actually like the Dewford Gym arc. In fact, I don't have a problem with Ash losing a small battle after his outstanding Sinnoh League performance. At the end of the Orange Island arc Ash comes home hot off his win against the head of the Orange League, and what happens next? Gary beats him. It's fine if another trainer beats him again.

I just think it's lame that a Trainer and Pokemon who are both completely inexperienced and just stepped outside for the first time together were the ones that did it. I mean Pikachu did go through a lot prior to the battle, so in my own headcanon its not just loss of electrical moves but also severe physical exhaustion from the prior events and Pikachu, being Pikachu wanting to look his best and push through it all, but that's my explanation.

Why they didn't just go with something like that if they needed Ash to lose his first battle in Unova is beyond me.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ash vs Paul #1
Ash would've won this if Pikachu wasn't nerfed but Paul let Pikachu attack first by letting it use Thunderbolt on Elekid on purpose to boost it's attacks.In the Starly vs Starly bout Paul pointed out to Ash that he figured out his battle style.Paul also told Ash that he made poor choice in attacks by having Aipom use Focus Punch but Paul countered it with Flame Wheel.

Ash vs Paul #2
Paul deserved to win,Chimchar got stronger,faster and learned the move Dig which helped it get the W over Turtwig.

Ash vs Paul #3
Paul had stronger pokemon but the battle wasn't finished due to Chimchar's Hax Blaze being out of control.

Ash vs Paul #4
Paul deserved this one,Ash's Grotle was weaker than Honchkrow and Ash didn't realize that it lost speed due to the increase in it's size.

Ash vs Paul #5
Honchkrow was stronger than Staraptor but Staraptor won the pokeringer due to knocking the ring out of Honchkrow's mouth at the last second.

Ash vs Paul #6
Paul deserved to win this one,he prepared himself and trained his pokemon hard in 10 days before his battle with Ash at Lake Acuity.Ash made a few mistakes in this one like not switching properly and keeping his pokemon out instead of returning them.Even if Pikachu wasn't nerfed Paul still would've won,the yellow mouse isn't sweeping through Electabuzz,Honchkrow,Magmortar and Torterra by itself.

Ash vs Paul #7
Ash won but barley,both him and Paul could've used stronger pokemon,if they did Ash of course would win using his bigger juggernauts but more than likely Paul has other reserves that we never got to see on screen.He didn't earn 8 badges and compete at the Hoenn,Johto and Kanto leagues using only Torterra,Nidoking,Hariyama,Murkrow and Weavile.
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Overall I'd say Ash lost due to not using pokemon like Charizard,Snorlax and Sceptile or Pikachu being nerfed.But besides all of that the battles him and Paul had Paul was in control and was consistently battling better from a skill standpoint,he's also naturally more intelligent than Ash too.This is helped Ash improve as a trainer.

XY Ash improved in areas that he was struggling in from DP but he still made silly mistakes in battle which is something Paul would not do,the guy is brutally efficient.One of the biggest XY fans on here even admitted that Paul was more skilled.

 

[beanDude]

Man just seeing someone mention all the Paul battles makes me want to rewatch all of Diamond and Pearl again. They managed to make Ash the underdog in that rivalry without sacrificing all of his character development. This was probably harder to do than it would seem on the surface, considering the whole point of the Advance Generation and Battle Frontier was having a more mature and experienced Ash traveling with May and Max on their first journey.

 

[DatsRight]

An overdog in every region is perfect storytelling though, right?

This forum needs to get control of its power fantasizing

I feel like XY and SM had interesting premises in terms of an 'overdog' situation, since Ash was in regions which focused more practical skills and traditions, thus only a select few characters were as strong as he was.

XY went a bit one-note with over idealising Ash, but I admit to liking the premise early on, with Kalos being this technologically advanced metropolis with only a few strong battlers, and Ash and Pikachu's compounded experience and altruism almost giving them a super hero undertone. (That would be an interesting motif to look at more for Pokemon, they are basically sentient creatures with super powers, Pikachu's arc in itself is almost a lite superhero story, or see Meowth who sacrificed super powers for intelligence and knowledge).

I also feel it's why they've pushed more to give Ash intellectual foils like Clemont, Sophocles or Lillie, characters who can't really offer any new lessons in terms of battling, but have a synergy with Ash in terms of non-battle smarts and resources, showing there's plenty of talents Ash hasn't mastered, and in some cases likely never will.

I think it's also why Ash's normal battle quest has become less interesting over seeing him experience newer challenges or situations. The battles are just a reminder of what he's already a pro at.

 

[pickapika]

Ash vs Paul #5
Honchkrow was stronger than Staraptor but Staraptor won the pokeringer due to knocking the ring out of Honchkrow's mouth at the last second.

Eh? Ash's staraptor tanked like half a dozen attacks from Honchkrow as well as multiple instances of recoil. Paul used honchkrow alot better than ash used staraptor but staraptor came out looking like the stronger pokemon.

 

[beanDude]

In the Pokeringer competitions I wanted to see James win one. Ash winning anything that isn't a Gym badge is way too predictable.

 

[pickapika]

I feel like XY and SM had interesting premises in terms of an 'overdog' situation, since Ash was in regions which focused more practical skills and traditions, thus only a select few characters were as strong as he was.

XY went a bit one-note with over idealising Ash, but I admit to liking the premise early on, with Kalos being this technologically advanced metropolis with only a few strong battlers, and Ash and Pikachu's compounded experience and altruism almost giving them a super hero undertone. (That would be an interesting motif to look at more for Pokemon, they are basically sentient creatures with super powers, Pikachu's arc in itself is almost a lite superhero story, or see Meowth who sacrificed super powers for intelligence and knowledge).

I also feel it's why they've pushed more to give Ash intellectual foils like Clemont, Sophocles or Lillie, characters who can't really offer any new lessons in terms of battling, but have a synergy with Ash in terms of non-battle smarts and resources, showing there's plenty of talents Ash hasn't mastered, and in some cases likely never will.

I think it's also why Ash's normal battle quest has become less interesting over seeing him experience newer challenges or situations. The battles are just a reminder of what he's already a pro at.

Ash being an overdog was probably more "explicit" in xy but subtextually s and m ash seemes on a completely different level. The series literally starts with a legendary deciding ash and his ace are it's only worthy rival, has him wielding the most powerful move in the history of alola, and has him essentially turn all his rookie-ish friends into elite trainers by having everyone just mimick him. He also defeats basically every challenge at his first attempt, you have ash capturing a one of a kind alien entity, and to cap it off, after taking out one undefeated trainer, he takes out another with the aforementioned legendary subsituting itself as the final boss. The show sort of tries to revert ash to "underdog" status during the league, but 90% of the show is screaming "ash is the chosen one" in one way of the other.

 

[pickapika]

In the Pokeringer competitions I wanted to see James win one. Ash winning anything that isn't a Gym badge is way too predictable.

i was pretty dissapointed they didn't give tr a single win in all those side comps. Like, why? Why are you going for the thing we've seen 200x as opposed to the thing we don't see in situation where nothing hinges on the heroes winning.

Not having mimiku have a single battle in the league was also pretty dissapointing