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Ghetsis. Do you think Adventures Writer Kusaka can give this character a redemption moment?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Manga Discussion' started by shoz999, Sep 29, 2018.

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Do you think it's possible for Ghetsis to get a redemption moment?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    37.5%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    62.5%
  1. shoz999

    shoz999 Name's Looker, Detective Looker.

    So if your a long time reader of Kusaka's Pokemon Adventures, you may have noticed a consistent trend of hope, change or last minute redemption moments for villains. That anyone, even villains, can change over time or at least have their own redemption moments. We saw the power hungry Maxie and Archie, after years of betrayal and madness, put aside their own goals for the sake of saving the world from a meteor. We saw Giovanni, Pryce and Lance teaming together to stop the end of the world by the creation trio. We even saw Cyrus have a believe change-of-heart. I honestly think Kusaka is a pretty good writer. He managed to write a believable hard-line sociopath, Cyrus, and later unexpectedly expand on the idea that Cyrus hasn't completely threw away his humanity in one of the most beautiful redemption scenes I have ever seen in not just Pokemon but just in manga in general. That being said, if Kusaka can give a believable redemption moment and a change of heart to these power-hungry sociopaths, do you think he can do the same for Ghetsis?

    [​IMG]

    This is my opinion but personally I think it is possible that Ghetsis can get redemption albeit it will be incredibly difficult to make it believable. One of the reasons why previous villains that got believable redemption turning points is that it suited their interests and it didn't always turned them away from villainy. Giovanni, Maxie and Archie can't control a world if it doesn't exist, so they have to save it. Cyrus's change of heart, his gratitude for life happened because of his ideological obsession of what is complete and incomplete. His failures made him realize he's an incomplete being and that human beings in general are incomplete as individuals but together they can be complete, never giving up even after the mistake they've made. Even someone like Lysandre can be redeemed because his original motives were based on the fact that he tried to send humanitarian needs to those who needed it most but it just wasn't enough.

    And then there is Ghetsis. Oh man. He is arguably, in my opinion, the best villain in the Pokemon series. Some of you admire a lot of qualities in other villains but for Ghetsis, you absolutely hate this guy not because he's annoying or a poorly written villain but because he was written intentionally and believably as this backstabbing murdering manipulative scum with almost no, if any, redeemable qualities. He's the kind of villain that you'd want to punch in his face rather than listen to what his motives are. That is why I think he is the hardest to redeemed because he is believable scum. Now why do I think he can be redeemed at all? Well it's because of something I've noticed in the Pokemon Generations anime adaptation. Apparently there is a little glimpse of hope for Ghetsis after all and that is a small part of Ghetsis does think of N as a son. Basically I'm saying he can be redeemed, for a short time anyway, from his father-son relationship with N. In the generations anime, N says it's hard to call Ghetsis this one word, father. Ghetsis for a short glimpse of a second, actually hesitates and looks afraid at what N called him, father. I was surprised at all that Ghetsis had this kind of reaction. Ghetsis getting even one glimpse of a redemption moment is by far a long shot still. In fact in the manga Ghetsis coldly with a smile, without hesitation, says to Colress that N means nothing to him. However who knows? Ghetsis hasn't actually been confronted with this father-son relationship by N himself in the manga. Considering how the BW2 arc is going, N could confront Ghetsis about this father-son relationship and Ghetsis could be caught in an unexpected moment. Kusaka is a clever writer too, able to adapt to the limitations of the game's basis and do more with it. Even if Ghetsis gets his little redemption moment, that doesn't mean he will stop being a manipulative jackass and in the end, that is what I'm asking.

    Do you think it's possible for the writer of Pokemon Adventures to give Ghetsis a redemption moment? Even for a glimpse of a second? If you do, how difficult do you think it would be to pull this off to make it believable? Or do you think it's impossible even for Kusaka?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  2. Shadao

    Shadao Well-Known Member

    Can you redeem Fire Lord Ozai after he's thrown in prison and at the mercy of his son, Zuko? After we know there was a time where Ozai did had some semblance of humanity in him left?

    Theoretically yes, but these characters are not really meant to be redeemed. They are, at best, meant to be pitied. Like a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

    Ghetsis is meant to be a despicable piece of work. A selfish wicked man who cares about himself first and foremost. While it'll be nice to see people redeemed, we must also be reminded that there are people who do not want to be redeemed. Who will reject the offer of redemption in favor of their own pursuits of power.

    In regards to Cyrus, I think the reason why his redemption is believable is due to the fact that his goal is more amoral than immoral. Cyrus believes emotions are useless and thus must be purged to make a perfect world. He is not needlessly kicking Pokémon while he does it in the games. Thus, it is possible to make Cyrus either a sympathetic villain or an outright monster depending on how you interpret the character. Ghetsis, on the other hand, does kick a lot of people down in the core game. Every other villain (aside from Giovanni) has a sympathetic reason for their insane goals. This allows the adaptation writers to either make them more or less evil as they please. Ghetsis is not one of those villains. He is meant to be a Hate Sink with no sympathetic reasons for his wicked nature and has plans so selfish and cruel that it Cyrus seem pleasant in comparison. Thus it would be completely out of character (and unpopular with fans) for Ghetsis to even be redeemed at all.
     
    shoz999 likes this.
  3. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    No!
    Ghetsis is 100% Intended to be a complete monster!

    He molded N into his pawn from DAY ONE, for the sole purpose of his world domination scheme and has done so in ways that is very messed up. Keeping N isolated from the world and raising him on a constant lie.
    With the full implications that he was going to dispose of N once his use has ended. Unlike the other villains baring Giovanni, (who at least has a set of standards for the ruthless things he does.) that had a either a well intended reason to be doing the things they are doing or are just plain crazy for various reasons, there is no hint of altruism to his goals, it was all for his own sick self entitlement to dominate over all.

    His deeds are also way above the normal for our villains in the games.
    For example you the player beaten N the final time Ghetsis viciously tore at him calling him a freak without a heart and then tried to focus on trying to murder you. (In the Manga... he basically did that to Black.)
    He manipulates countless people for his schemes and this psychopathic behavior continues in BW2 where his next goal is freezing all of Unova.
    When you the player tried to something about Kyurem... the bastard tried to murder you and he would have if it wasn't for N.
    Once you beaten Ghetsis, N tried to offer him a chance at redemption and the monster verbally tore at N once more and had a stroke.
    In USUM during the Rainbow Rocket episode... Ghetsis in this one has basically gotten what he wanted from that universes N and planned to do the same to Giovanni.
    When you beaten this guy and brought him to a corner, he STRUCK Lillie and held her hostage, threatening to kill her if you didn't surrender. Thankfully Colress showed up to stop him before it gotten worse.
     
    OriginalScream and shoz999 like this.
  4. shoz999

    shoz999 Name's Looker, Detective Looker.

    I suppose I'm trying to say is that is there even a 1% chance of Ghetsis getting an incredibly short barely noticeable BUT believable redemption moment lol, similar to the debatable one in Generations, before resuming his murderous ways. What you say just reminded me of another supposed, and possibly the only "good" deed Ghetsis has done and that's the Shadow Triad's loyalty to Ghetsis for saving them. Grant it, it's probably a similar situation to N, he only saved them to use them but I find the loyalty between Ghetsis and the Shadow Triad to be quite interesting that you have to wonder why is the Shadow Triad loyal to such a monster. Unlike N they actually knew from the beginning of his deceitful actions as they are the ones who help carry some of these actions out. You have to wonder what the Shadow Triad see in Ghetsis. I mean they are probably the only ones who wouldn't betray or give up on Ghetsis. Even the other sages look like people who would betray Ghetsis, like what Zinzolin did, for the sake of power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  5. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    The Triad were more those that Ghetsis... may have likely molded to be his own personal tools to do the dirty work. Making them loyal to his every whim and kissing the ground he walks on, they are just an extension of Ghetsis by the time you meet them and nothing more.
    As for everyone else, they have their own reasons for betraying him. Most if not all of them is because they really hate the guy and I can make a list as to why.

    As to your statement on Cyrus and how he compares. The guy really does believe that the human spirit is a problem and that it needed to be removed, without that, there would be no reason for conflict.
    He is still trying to rewrite reality and become its god, under this delusion and as what the Manga and USUM proved, he is capable of snapping out of that delusion once he gets proven wrong. (USUM it was far too late for Cyrus to stop and he is stuck in his self made hell.)

    Ghetsis, finds himself perfect and REFUSES to ever admit that he is wrong. Because that is what he is, literally the Devil of the franchise.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
    shoz999 likes this.
  6. Darthlord7

    Darthlord7 Number 4 sucks

    I'm pretty sure he doesn't deserve any redemption. As it has been already stated above all the other villains put aside their selfish goals for the greater good and Cyrus started rethinking again his own beliefs regarding humanity judging the DP trio. Also, let's not forget that Giovanni might be a ruthless criminal but even he still has a soft side for his son and actually cares about his well-being and how he has grown throughout his journey unlike with Ghetsis who just treated N as an object and turned him into a delusional individual through lies which is mental abuse. A guy like that would rather die instead of saving the world if that means that he has to give up all of his ambitions so making a redemption arc with him which will be well-written and believable seems difficult and uneccessary to me. And I don't think Ghetsis will be the first main villain who doesn't get redeemed judging from what we have seen of Lysandre thus far in XY.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
    shoz999 likes this.
  7. lolipiece

    lolipiece ✧* Ladies ~ *✧ Staff Member Moderator

    If Kusaka is trying to set up a redemption arc for Ghetsis, he's doing a very poor job at it. We're in the final volume of B2W2, and Ghetsis has gone out of his way to not show a single redeemable quality.

    One of the things I don't like about game Ghetsis is that he's so transparently evil. They make no effort to hide his true colors. Heck, he almost blabs his true colors in his grandiose speeches on multiple occasions. It doesn't help that they outright reveal Team Plasma is evil when you first fight the Grunts in the Dreamyard. Only way it'd be more obvious if the word "villain" was tattooed on his forehead.

    In Pokespe, however, that's not the case. Pokespe portrays Ghetsis as a more gentle figure. He seems to actually believe in Team Plasma's false ideals in his first few appearances even though we know he doesn't. And outside of a few moments, he's always like this. When he shocks Black with Eelektross at the Nacrene Museum, he's still the same smiling old man. When he reveals N was a pawn all along, he's still smiling. He's the guy who smiles so much you want to punch him just to get him to stop.

    So no, I can't believe he'll be redeemed. He's not meant to be.

    Ghetsis' reaction wasn't hesitation. It's just part of his breakdown into insanity.
     
    shoz999 likes this.
  8. shoz999

    shoz999 Name's Looker, Detective Looker.

    So basically what I'm getting at. It is possible for Ghetsis to be written in a redemption moment however! It is not nearly but completely impossible for all of you that Ghetsis can be written in a believable way that he can get even a tiny redemption moment because he's just that much of an jackass/monster.
     
  9. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    Normally when characters undergo redemption arcs, the character already has some noble traits. Their hearts might be in the right place (ie: butchering murderers, rapists, swindlers, and false accusers to prevent more tragedies befalling the public) but their actions are not or they have a sense of honor of some kind. Ghetsis has shown none of those.
     
  10. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    The guy views himself as perfect and refuses to admit that he is wrong, in any canon for that matter. Someone like that, who is unashamed of the horrible things he has done and does it for the sake of power is never going to learn or change.

    That is kind of what separates Cyrus from not so different character Lysandre.

    Where Cyrus started regretting everything in USUM while Lysandre is still hellbent on his genocide scheme, refusing to listen to others as to why what he is doing is wrong in the same episode. Why Cyrus was left opened to it and getting redeemed in the manga, where Lysandre in every adaptation... flat out dies!
     

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