"GRASS" the worst starter and possibly type??

[Mitja]

Water only has two weaknesses (Grass and Electric) whereas Grass and Fire each have 3 (Fire, Flying, Bug and Water, Ground, Rock) Which gives it a slight advantage over the other 2. Empoleon Rocks. I just wish it wasn't so prone to Earthquake and Close Combat/Superpower etc. which are all too common.

Grass has 3 weaknesses?
More like 5 xD
The most crucial one that you missed: Ice

You cant just look at weaknesses either. Sure none of these have immunities, but Water and Fire also have a nice handful of resistaces.


First Ill try to assign scores for each offensive type, based on the type chart and how common they are:
Normal-**
Fire-****
Electric-****
Ice-*****
Grass-***
Water-***
Ground-*****
Flying-***
Fighting-*****
Psychic-**
Poison-*
Dark-***
Bug-***
Rock-******
Dragon-****
Ghost-**
Steel-*

*-barely any usage
**-when its used, its for some specific purpose or STAB and due to lack of better alternatives
***-casual STAB move
****-pretty common and useful, plenty of non-STAB use
*****-the real threats
******-real threat with common hazard..in other words, Rock

Weaknesses:

Water
-Electric- yep ****
-Grass- oh well ***
W-Score=6
No serious hole here.

Fire
-Rock- death! ******
-Ground- death! *****
-Water- I guess.... ***
W-Score=14
Watch the hell out if you wanna live.

Grass
-Bug- every now and then ***
-Flying- good one, just not that common ***
-Poison- lol *
-Fire- something always has a fire move ****
-Ice- oh **** *****
W-Score=16
Whatever you're facing, you're probably not safe without some aid.


So so far, Grass and Fire have serious things to worry about, while Water can play quite nicely.


Resistances:
Lets say they are negatively half as important as weaknesses for the score.

Water
-Water- better than none ***
-Ice- thats pretty handy! *****
-Steel- lol *
-Fire- ****
R-Score=13
Final Score= W - R/2 = 6 - 6.5 = -0.5
Thats one tough type. Can walk into cold or hot attacks and doesn't fear anything too serious.

Fire
-Bug- yeh ***
-Fire- fun ****
-Grass- uhuh ***
-Steel- lol *
-Ice- woohoo *****
R-Score= 16
Final Score= W - R/2 = 14 - 8 = 6
Thats not what you'd call a healthy type. Smack some stuff and run when you smell threat.

Grass
-Electric- thats neat ****
-Ground- one heck of a useful resist there *****
-Water- why not ***
-Grass- ^ ***
R-Score= 15
Final Score= W - R/2 = 16 - 7.5 = 8.5
If you're Grass type, you're gonna have a bad time.


Here are the extremes for comparison
Steel
W: Fire Ground Fighting
**** ***** ***** = 14
R: Normal Steel Rock Psy Ice Grass Ghost Flying Dragon
Dark Bug
** * ****** ** ***** *** ** *** **** *** *** = 34 -> 17
I: Poison
* = 1 -> 1.5
F= 14 - 17 - 1.5 = -4.5

Ice
W: Fire Fighting Rock Steel
**** ***** ****** * = 16
R: Ice
***** = 5 -> 2.5
F= 16 - 2.5 = 13.5


So
good-----------------------------------------bad
-5_4_3_2_1_0_1_2_3_4_5_6_7_8_9_0_1_2_3_4_15
-__S__________________________________I____
-_________w____________f____g______________

EDIT:
I realized that Ghost is actually a better defensive type than Steel.

Ghost
W: Dark Ghost
*** ** = 5
R: Bug Poison
*** * = 4 -> 2
I: Fighting Normal
***** * = 6 -> 9
F: 5 - 2 - 9 = -6

good--------------------------------------bad
6_5_4_3_2_1_0_1_2_3_4_5_6_7_8_9_0_1_2_3_4_(1)5
G___s___________D________B___________R_____ Ghost Steel Dragon Bug Rock
___________w__eg________f____g_________I'___ Water Electric Ground Fire Grass Ice
__________F___P_FD___P_____________________ Fighting Poison Flying Dark Psychic
______________N____________________________ Normal

Rock and Ice are the worst. Then Grass. Then everything else is better off. Ghost and Steel are uber, followed by tough Fighting and Water.

 

[Wishing Star]

[spoil]Grass has 3 weaknesses?
More like 5 xD
The most crucial one that you missed: Ice

You cant just look at weaknesses either. Sure none of these have immunities, but Water and Fire also have a nice handful of resistaces.


First Ill try to assign scores for each offensive type, based on the type chart and how common they are:
Normal-**
Fire-****
Electric-****
Ice-*****
Grass-***
Water-***
Ground-*****
Flying-***
Fighting-****
Psychic-**
Poison-*
Dark-***
Bug-***[/spoil]

Rock-******

[spoil]Dragon-****
Ghost-**
Steel-*

*-barely any usage
**-when its used, its for some specific purpose or STAB and due to lack of better alternatives
***-casual STAB move
****-pretty common and useful, plenty of non-STAB use
*****-the real threats
******-real threat with common hazard..in other words, Rock

Weaknesses:

Water
-Electric- yep ****
-Grass- oh well ***
W-Score=6
No serious hole here.

Fire
-Rock- death! ******
-Ground- death! *****
-Water- I guess.... ***
W-Score=14
Watch the hell out if you wanna live.

Grass
-Bug- every now and then ***
-Flying- good one, just not that common ***
-Poison- lol *
-Fire- something always has a fire move ****
-Ice- oh **** *****
W-Score=16
Whatever you're facing, you're probably not safe without some aid.


So so far, Grass and Fire have serious things to worry about, while Water can play quite nicely.


Resistances:
Lets say they are negatively half as important as weaknesses for the score.

Water
-Water- better than none ***
-Ice- thats pretty handy! *****
-Steel- lol *
-Fire- ****
R-Score=13
Final Score= W - R/2 = 6 - 6.5 = -0.5
Thats one tough type. Can walk into cold or hot attacks and doesn't fear anything too serious.

Fire
-Bug- yeh ***
-Fire- fun ****
-Grass- uhuh ***
-Steel- lol *
-Ice- woohoo *****
R-Score= 16
Final Score= W - R/2 = 14 - 8 = 6
Thats not what you'd call a healthy type. Smack some stuff and run when you smell threat.

Grass
-Electric- thats neat ****
-Ground- one heck of a useful resist there *****
-Water- why not ***
-Grass- ^ ***
R-Score= 15
Final Score= W - R/2 = 16 - 7.5 = 8.5
If you're Grass type, you're gonna have a bad time.[/spoil]

Why is Rock worth six stars? Is it solely because of Stealth Rock?
While common, it shouldn't be worth so much due to that one move. There are powerful, game- and match-turning moves like that, but not every one of them are going to be used on a team, so I don't see why Stealth Rock alone should warrant such a high score.
Of course, if it's not for Stealth Rock, then you can ignore this completely.

As for everything else, these three types on the defensive is only one side of the spectrum. Analysis with these types on the offensive, as well as of moves of these types, have to be done, too. Regardless, though, it's pretty much inarguable that Grass has the most weaknesses of the three, and that those weaknesses hamper its rating a lot.

 

[Dragalge]

@Mitja again Flying isn't that common of an offensive type as much as Fighting, plus most Grass often carry a coverage move to deal them. As for Rock, it should be noted that it gets great coverage with Ground too making it another reason why it's that common along with Stealth Rock as you mentioned. Speaking of SR, it's what makes Flying a bit less common nowadays.

 

[Mitja]

Why is Rock worth six stars? Is it solely because of Stealth Rock?
While common, it shouldn't be worth so much due to that one move. There are powerful, game- and match-turning moves like that, but not every one of them are going to be used on a team, so I don't see why Stealth Rock alone should warrant such a high score.
Of course, if it's not for Stealth Rock, then you can ignore this completely.

As for everything else, these three types on the defensive is only one side of the spectrum. Analysis with these types on the offensive, as well as of moves of these types, have to be done, too. Regardless, though, it's pretty much inarguable that Grass has the most weaknesses of the three, and that those weaknesses hamper its rating a lot.

It is because of SR. Itd be 5 stars like the other 2 bad guys Fighting and Ground. But at least there is immunities to them, whereas a Rock weakness will make your team suffer from the extremely easy set up SR.


No, the offensive side of the type chart has nothing to do with this.
IMy whole post is about whether being a Grass type is good or bad.
On the offensive side it makes no difference beyond STAB and mostly depends on the available moves to each specific pokemon.
How good Grass moves are doesn't matter much compared to actually being a Grass type. You might use one for STAB or not, but it doesn't stop other types from using Grass moves.

I mean its the same issue with Ice.
Ice is an amazing offensive type, but defensively utter crap.
The fact its good offense does not make any Ice Pokemon better because of that. They still all horribly suck defensively, whereas all the other types get to use Ice Beam just as easily.
Think of it this way: You'd rather have a powerful Water Pokemon with an Ice Beam than a powerful Ice Pokemon with Ice Beam.

Even if I tried figuring out a system that takes STAB into consideration, the results would hardly change.

 

[Wishing Star]

No, the offensive side of the type chart has nothing to do with this.
IMy whole post is about whether being a Grass type is good or bad.
On the offensive side it makes no difference beyond STAB and mostly depends on the available moves to each specific pokemon.
How good Grass moves are doesn't matter much compared to actually being a Grass type. You might use one for STAB or not, but it doesn't stop other types from using Grass moves.

I mean its the same issue with Ice.
Ice is an amazing offensive type, but defensively utter crap.
The fact its good offense does not make any Ice Pokemon better because of that. They still all horribly suck defensively, whereas all the other types get to use Ice Beam just as easily.
Think of it this way: You'd rather have a powerful Water Pokemon with an Ice Beam than a powerful Ice Pokemon with Ice Beam.

Even if I tried figuring out a system that takes STAB into consideration, the results would hardly change.

So if your analysis of how good types are defensively take into account how often types against it are used, why doesn't analysis of how good types are offensively take into account the overall usefulness and power of moves of its type, as well as how frequently they're used? Judging whether or not a type is good or bad solely through the defense side of the spectrum measures just that; it doesn't measure how good they are offensively.

While you mention it, if anything, a Water-type Pokémon with Ice Beam compared to an Ice-type Pokémon with Ice Beam would mean that the Ice type is good because Pokémon of other types can use it, and that the Water type is good because they can generally use moves of many other types. It doesn't mean that Ice is bad because an Ice-type with Ice Beam is worse than a Water-type with the same move.

I just find it odd that people only mention Pokémon and type matchups as criteria for judging whether a type is good or bad. After all, base stats and type matchups don't say everything about a Pokémon; there is one vital element missing in the equation that's barely been touched as far as actual analysis and judgment of a type goes.

Almost all of what I'm trying to say can be summed up in a question:
- What makes Pokémon like Starmie, Porygon-Z, Gengar, Haxorus, and Venusaur so good?

 

[Mononoke Hime]

Grass is fine, the same goes to all other types. There's no such thing as worst or best type. And if you're talking about super effectiveness, at least for me that's not that important when the moveset is well planned. Also, is the purpose of a party have pokemons that complete each other.
This is a matter of wich style you prefer to use when you're playing/battling, although there's many grass sweepers (Liligant, for exemple).

I personally don't care about the type, I care about movepool and design, and sometimes the general "nature" of some particular species.

 

[Hiee]

Rock and Ice are the worst. Then Grass. Then everything else is better off. Ghost and Steel are uber, followed by tough Fighting and Water.

Ice is the worst? You are joking right? Tbh. Poison is the worst imo. It only super effective with grass and nothing else.

 

[Mitja]

So if your analysis of how good types are defensively take into account how often types against it are used, why doesn't analysis of how good types are offensively take into account the overall usefulness and power of moves of its type, as well as how frequently they're used? Judging whether or not a type is good or bad solely through the defense side of the spectrum measures just that; it doesn't measure how good they are offensively.

"My whole post is about whether being a Grass type is good or bad."

Where does the offensive part of the chart come into this?

While you mention it, if anything, a Water-type Pokémon with Ice Beam compared to an Ice-type Pokémon with Ice Beam would mean that the Ice type is good because Pokémon of other types can use it, and that the Water type is good because they can generally use moves of many other types. It doesn't mean that Ice is bad because an Ice-type with Ice Beam is worse than a Water-type with the same move.

It means that Ice moves are great and being an Ice Pokemon sucks. 2 distinct things that are not necessarily related at all.

I just find it odd that people only mention Pokémon and type matchups as criteria for judging whether a type is good or bad. After all, base stats and type matchups don't say everything about a Pokémon; there is one vital element missing in the equation that's barely been touched as far as actual analysis and judgment of a type goes.

Almost all of what I'm trying to say can be summed up in a question:
- What makes Pokémon like Starmie, Porygon-Z, Gengar, Haxorus, and Venusaur so good?

I am talking generalized.
Will being one type make a pokemons life easier or not.

You cant take the stats and moves or whatever into account, because they are all pokemon-specific and there can be any oh so radical addition in the next gen.

-sweeper stats with boltbeam and rapid spin
-its good? Ive seen more use of eviolite porygon2 over the past months and that was in UU
-sweeper stats coupled with several immunities
-147 Atk
-Chlorophyll & Growth

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Ice is the worst? You are joking right? Tbh. Poison is the worst imo. It only super effective with grass and nothing else.

You are judging a type solely by their effectiveness. Poison is SE only against one type, but it is pretty decent on the defensive side, plus Poison Pokémon are immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes. Ice? This type is disgraceful defensively and while it is one of the bests on the offensive side, it is way better to teach an Ice-Type move (Ice Beam/Punch) to a Water- or Fighting-Type Pokémon, instead of using a sheet of paper Ice Pokémon for this purpose.

IMO Ice is the worst type, the decent Pokémon of this type are only usable thanks to secondary characteristics: Mamoswine and its Ground-Type, Abomasnow and Snow Warning, Kyurem-B and its ridiculous high stats (which would take it to the ubers, if it wasn't an Ice-Type 'mon), Cloyster and Shell Smash/Skill Link. There are Cryogonal and Jynx, but they would be way more useful if they weren't Ice Pokémon.

 

[Hidden Power]

IMO Ice is the worst type, the decent Pokémon of this type are only usable thanks to secondary characteristics: Mamoswine and its Ground-Type, Abomasnow and Snow Warning, Kyurem-B and its ridiculous high stats (which would take it to the ubers, if it wasn't an Ice-Type 'mon), Cloyster and Shell Smash/Skill Link. There are Cryogonal and Jynx, but they would be way more useful if they weren't Ice Pokémon.

Isn't that pretty much the same about grass?

While I agree that Ice typing isn't very good either, in-game wise it helps me move on with the battles faster. I'm not going to be subseed every single opponent, for example.

 

[Hiee]

IMO Ice is the worst type, the decent Pokémon of this type are only usable thanks to secondary characteristics: Mamoswine and its Ground-Type, Abomasnow and Snow Warning, Kyurem-B and its ridiculous high stats (which would take it to the ubers, if it wasn't an Ice-Type 'mon), Cloyster and Shell Smash/Skill Link. There are Cryogonal and Jynx, but they would be way more useful if they weren't Ice Pokémon.

Its best to teach moves that is the same type as the pokemon so that it does more dmg. if it isnt the same type, it wouldnt be able to kill it in one shot and ice type moves is used mostly to counter dragon types. if u cant kill the dragon pokemon quickly, then the water/fighting pokemon will just lose since some dragon pokemon such as dragonite is pretty dam strong :O LOL

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Isn't that pretty much the same about grass?

Yes, but... not necessarily. Unlike Ice-, the Grass-Type has its uniqueness: Leech Seed. There isn't variations of this move and only Grass Pokémon learns it.
That said, there is at least one reason for using a Grass Pokémon. Leech Seed is pretty good move for those who like stalling their opponents.

Unfortunately for Ice Pokémon, there isn't reasons for using one, except if you are playing with a Hail Team. But if we consider thematics team, there is also more reasons for using Grass 'mon.

Its best to teach moves that is the same type as the pokemon so that it does more dmg. if it isnt the same type, it wouldnt be able to kill it in one shot and ice type moves is used mostly to counter dragon types. if u cant kill the dragon pokemon quickly, then the water/fighting pokemon will just lose since some dragon pokemon such as dragonite is pretty dam strong :O LOL

Sure, STAB is always a good thing. But you won't be teaching Ice Beam to any Pokémon, but to one with a decent Sp. Attack stat.
Same goes to Ice Punch, you wanna teach it for a Pokémon with a high Attack stat.

That said, the damage will be decent regardless of having STAB or not. IMO it is not worth using a Ice Pokémon only for this factor.

 

[Hiee]

Sure, STAB is always a good thing. But you won't be teaching Ice Beam to any Pokémon, but to one with a decent Sp. Attack stat.
Same goes to Ice Punch, you wanna teach it for a Pokémon with a high Attack stat.

That said, the damage will be decent regardless of having STAB or not. IMO it is not worth using a Ice Pokémon only for this factor.

Glaceon - Decent Sp.Attack.
Weavile - Decent Attack

Oh. Lets not get off topic LOL blaming myself too xD

 

[Hidden Power]

Yes, but... not necessarily. Unlike Ice-, the Grass-Type has its uniqueness: Leech Seed. There isn't variations of this move and only Grass Pokémon learns it.
That said, there is at least one reason for using a Grass Pokémon. Leech Seed is pretty good move for those who like stalling their opponents.

Unfortunately for Ice Pokémon, there isn't reasons for using one, except if you are playing with a Hail Team. But if we consider thematics team, there is also more reasons for using Grass 'mon.

I'm under the impression that we're only going to talk about the type and its inherent effectiveness and weakness, and not the associated moves, abilities and strategies. Leech Seed is a good move, but it also lends strength to the fact that Grass type Pokemon without Leech Seed aren't very useful. Chlorophyll is a make-or-break ability for Venusaur and the likes, and again it shows us that Grass type requires a boost in other areas to compensate for their ineffectiveness. Seems like Smogon also considers Swim Swim + Drizzle to be enough threat for a ban, but not Drought + Chlorophyll.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Glaceon - Decent Sp.Attack.
Weavile - Decent Attack

Really? And what about both barely being capable of taking a hit... which was always my point here? Glaceon at least have decent defensive stats, but being weak to some of the most common types doesn't help much. Weavile take 4X from Fighting-Type moves, plus it is weak to Bug (X Scissor/Megahorn are common moves), Fire (everyone and their mothers have a Fire-Type move), Rock, etc. I'd rather use a Scrafty/Machamp/Electivire/Metagross/etc with Ice Punch, Starmie/Empoleon/Latias/PorygonZ/etc with Ice Beam or something else with Ice Fang, maybe Gliscor or Drapion.

I'm under the impression that we're only going to talk about the type and its inherent effectiveness and weakness, and not the associated moves, abilities and strategies.

Really? Because people are bringing up all kinds of arguments to defend Ice-Type Pokémon.

and again it shows us that Grass type requires a boost in other areas to compensate for their ineffectiveness.

Of course. I am not trying to say that Grass is a very good type, it isn't even close to be one of the bests... but I still think it is considerably better than the Ice-Type.

 

[fireice]

I'm under the impression that we're only going to talk about the type and its inherent effectiveness and weakness, and not the associated moves, abilities and strategies. Leech Seed is a good move, but it also lends strength to the fact that Grass type Pokemon without Leech Seed aren't very useful. Chlorophyll is a make-or-break ability for Venusaur and the likes, and again it shows us that Grass type requires a boost in other areas to compensate for their ineffectiveness. Seems like Smogon also considers Swim Swim + Drizzle to be enough threat for a ban, but not Drought + Chlorophyll.

Isn't that because water moves are neutral or Super Effective to more types types than Grass? Water types also have more diverse offensive movepools also?

 

[fireice]

Really? And what about both barely being capable of taking a hit... which was always my point here? Glaceon at least have decent defensive stats, but being weak to some of the most common types doesn't help much. Weavile take 4X from Fighting-Type moves, plus it is weak to Bug (X Scissor/Megahorn are common moves), Fire (everyone and their mothers have a Fire-Type move), Rock, etc. I'd rather use a Scrafty/Machamp/Electivire/Metagross/etc with Ice Punch, Starmie/Empoleon/Latias/PorygonZ/etc with Ice Beam or something else with Ice Fang, maybe Gliscor or Drapion.


Really? Because people are bringing up all kinds of arguments to defend Ice-Type Pokémon.



Of course. I am not trying to say that Grass is a very good type, it isn't even close to be one of the bests... but I still think it is considerably better than the Ice-Type.

Cloyster with shell smash and Skill Link is hardly terrible. Mamoswine with Icicle Crash and Earthquake is decent also.

 

[Hiee]

Really? And what about both barely being capable of taking a hit... which was always my point here? Glaceon at least have decent defensive stats, but being weak to some of the most common types doesn't help much. Weavile take 4X from Fighting-Type moves, plus it is weak to Bug (X Scissor/Megahorn are common moves), Fire (everyone and their mothers have a Fire-Type move), Rock, etc. I'd rather use a Scrafty/Machamp/Electivire/Metagross/etc with Ice Punch, Starmie/Empoleon/Latias/PorygonZ/etc with Ice Beam or something else with Ice Fang, maybe Gliscor or Drapion.

Weavile also has a decent speed therefore it will be able to defeat it's enemy before he gets crushed. but why would u use a weavile against a fighting type pokemon at first? =.= it isnt the only pokemon u have in your party. you have different type of pokemon for a reason to counter the enemy by substituting :O and by the way, ever thought of lapras? pretty good ice type pokemon also it have water type
Basically, if you know how to withdraw your pokemon to counter your opponent, all types are the same .

 

[Dragalge]

Really? And what about both barely being capable of taking a hit... which was always my point here? Glaceon at least have decent defensive stats, but being weak to some of the most common types doesn't help much. Weavile take 4X from Fighting-Type moves, plus it is weak to Bug (X Scissor/Megahorn are common moves), Fire (everyone and their mothers have a Fire-Type move), Rock, etc. I'd rather use a Scrafty/Machamp/Electivire/Metagross/etc with Ice Punch, Starmie/Empoleon/Latias/PorygonZ/etc with Ice Beam or something else with Ice Fang, maybe Gliscor or Drapion.

Fun Fact: Gliscor (and Eviolite Gligar) covers Weaviles weakness and vice versa (Gliscor may have weakness that Weaviles STABs can't cover but it had enough power to 2KO or KO) while Latios covers Glaceons weakness and vice versa. It's called Team Synergy!

Some Grass Types are actually great Synergy core like Ferrothorn and Jellicent plus Celebi and Heatran.

 

[Hidden Power]

Defense-wise I'm sure both are as brittle when facing their respective weaknesses, just that Grass type has better resistance three types and itself, and those three are rather common, while Ice only resists itself. Offense-wise Ice has the advantage of being one of the two types effective against Dragon, though you can just be any Pokemon holding Ice Beam to utilize that. Grass has the upper hand when it comes to strategies and gimmick though.

Personally Grass type Pokemon starters are my favorite, but I'll usually carry some sort of ice moves (with T-bolt) on my team for better coverage.