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Greatest twists in the Pokemon series! (Games, Manga, Anime, Spinoffs etc. HEAVY SPOILERS)

lolipiece

Pictured: what browsing Serebii does to a person
Staff member
Moderator
Nothing in Sun and Moon ever once stated that Lusamine was under the influence of Nihilego toxins during the events of the game other than her fusing with it in the final battle. I do not understand why people keep passing that off as fact. Did Game Freak come out and confirm it recently?

Either way, I rarely ever find any plot twist in the games even slightly bit surprising. Game Freak is about a subtle as a brick to your face with their plots, so you can easily see a majority of them coming a mile away if you bother to pay attention to dialogue or character expressions.

That being said, Lusamine being able to fuse with Nihilego was an actual legitimate cool thing to see. Certainly makes her stand out from the other bosses.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
Nothing in Sun and Moon ever once stated that Lusamine was under the influence of Nihilego toxins during the events of the game other than her fusing with it in the final battle. I do not understand why people keep passing that off as fact. Did Game Freak come out and confirm it recently?

Either way, I rarely ever find any plot twist in the games even slightly bit surprising. Game Freak is about a subtle as a brick to your face with their plots, so you can easily see a majority of them coming a mile away if you bother to pay attention to dialogue or character expressions.

That being said, Lusamine being able to fuse with Nihilego was an actual legitimate cool thing to see. Certainly makes her stand out from the other bosses.
Your right. I think it's just some common misconception. In actually she was driven insane by the loss of her husband and the continued distancing between her and her children but she was affected by the toxins after the game to be hospitalized. Other than that, I'm not sure where the idea she was influenced by Nihilego's toxins came from.

On an entirely different note. Here's a twist. Arceus is hinted at appearing during the events of Explorers of Sky and I'm not talking about the statue. In the special episode, Dialga claims that he and the heroes of that special episode were saved by a power higher then himself. Some think this is Dialga from another timeline, others think it's Arceus.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Nothing in Sun and Moon ever once stated that Lusamine was under the influence of Nihilego toxins during the events of the game other than her fusing with it in the final battle. I do not understand why people keep passing that off as fact. Did Game Freak come out and confirm it recently?

To both Lolipiece and Shoz999
I can't blame you for not seeing it since Sun and Moon did a pretty bad job at stating it.
We only had Guzma's word at what it is like to have one of those things latch onto you. (He did not merge into something like the mother beast.)
Pre game notes on Nihilego redirecting priorities by altering the brain with their venom. As well as Wicke's report on what the venom does to people. (In fact most of the things regarding depth to Lusamine were ALL in easy to miss dialogue in the post game. All of that stemmed into bad writing and if Mohn was the sole factor to... all of that, then Lillie has even LESS logical reasons to want to save her. Which goes against the climax of that narrative telling us that Lusamine's recovery would be a good thing.)

While S/M did a very poor way of explaining Nihilego's influence, it is however better explained in another source connecting to Gen 7

US/UM and how it did its take on her character, where her villainy was toned down a couple notches for what seems to be no reason until you compare and contrast the two Lusamine's.

I'll copy what I debated in a previous forum, since it list all of the differences and similarities.

1. During your first visit in Aether Paradise, Nihilego shows up in a wormhole. Nothing different happened in either games until after you defeat it, then Lusamine talks to herself about getting something back.
In S/M she flashes an evil smile and talks about protecting/ loving Nihilego. Then starting being vague on what is going on down at the labs, Wicke admitted that it may have not been an accident for the wormhole opening up.
In US/UM, that evil smile does not happen and the URS show up to explain their part in assisting Aether. In contrast, Lusamine is MORE open to what was happening down at the labs, they were doing an experiment that didn't work as intended, Wicke treats it like it was an accident.

2. Next, when you go rescue Lillie. Lusamine in both versions verbally talked down on her, in S/M she had an enraged snarl on her face, showing hate. In US/UM, she had a disappointed/ hurt expression. In S/M, the verbal abuse continues at its worse by saying Lillie wasn't beautiful and told Lillie to stay around and watch her summon the beasts, knowing it might kill Nebby. In US/UM, she called Lillie's behavior unattractive and talks about still wanting to protect her from Necrozma. In S/M, Lusamine taunts Lillie more about forcing Nebby to use its power whether it wants to or not, with more cruel words; in US/UM Lusamine still said that using Nebby's power will kill it, but if it is for the greater good, it will have to be done. Then she leaves to her freezer closet with parting words. S/M it was more cruel taunting with a cruel smile. While in US/UM Lusamine gave Lillie credit where it is due for keeping Cosmog safe and thanking her with a more genuine smile. (To Lusamine, the words are more kind, when they come out... it is basic villain cliche, thanking the hero for doing something for them.)

3. Now for the confrontation in the freezer room. In S/M, Lusamine rambled about how Nihilego must be suffering in Ultra Space and thinks letting it out to do what ever it wants to Alola would help it, while screaming at her kids for stealing her stuff and betraying her. Saying that they no longer matter to her, she even taunts in how many wormholes will open up if she used the whole Cosmog.
In US/UM, she rambles how she can't love those close to her if the light is stolen, taking it upon herself to go fight Necrozma. In her childrens pleas, specifically when Gladion mentions Mohn Lusamine acknowledges the memory of what happened that day as her excuse to go after Necrozma by herself. Despite like in S/M, she called her kids wretches for leaving her, she is still determined to protect them from Necrozma. With the intended goal of using Nebby to make just one wormhole that she might have control over.

In S/M she used the box without hesitation, taunts Lillie more and use it to open the wormholes with psychotic glee. Only caring about Nihilego, ordering Guzma that she doesn't want to hear from the annoying kids again and wants to silence (Potentially a homicidal metaphor.) you the player. In US/UM she hesitates to use the box and when Nebby resists, she gave praise to Cosmog for its love of Lillie and was rather happy that her kids grew up away from her eyes. But still bound to her self appointed duty, does not want anyone to interfere and challenges you the player to silence any worries her kids might have for her, by proving how she can fare in battle. (This one, is not a homicidal metaphor.) Post battle, she gives a praise to you the player, has Guzma come along with her because she wouldn't be fighting Necrozma alone, then uses the Nebby box with no sign of joy in it.

In S/M, she was acting on her most extreme without the moral inhibitor called a consciousness, while rambling about the Ultra Beasts or specifically, Nihilego. (Every single symptom of being on the venom as we heard from Wicke.)

When in US/UM Lusamine was much more tame while having other priorities on her mind that was more around getting revenge on the Beasts than anything like we saw in the previous game, in fact in US/UM she isn't even homicidal or on the wall insane. (Still a couple screws short, which came from losing Mohn.)
 
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Nockturne

Well-Known Member
The prophecy in the second movie that says "the world will turn to ash" so you think it means the world will get destroyed, but it actually meant the world will turn to Ash (Ketchum) to save it when Lugia fails, blew my six year old MIND.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
The prophecy in the second movie that says "the world will turn to ash" so you think it means the world will get destroyed, but it actually meant the world will turn to Ash (Ketchum) to save it when Lugia fails, blew my six year old MIND.
That was both a mind blowing and a cheesy "Only Ash can do this" moment lol. Only Pokemon could find a way to do both.
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
The prophecy in the second movie that says "the world will turn to ash" so you think it means the world will get destroyed, but it actually meant the world will turn to Ash (Ketchum) to save it when Lugia fails, blew my six year old MIND.
It led to a million and one "Chosen One Ash" fanfics despite the writers only really playing with that idea again in the eighth movie

Anime-wise, the reveal that Sammy is actually Professor Oak from 40 years ago
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
jejvufv.jpg

You know what was UNDOUBTEDLY an unexpected twist. Honestly I'm not even sure if any Pokemon fan saw it coming. Cyrus's character progression in the Pokemon Adventures manga. The manga is faithful to the games but it knows when to take liberties when it wants to tell the story GameFreak wants to tell but could not always capture it in the games. However Adventures depiction of Cyrus was probably far from what GameFreak had intended as GameFreak always depicts him as this hardline sociopath. In the games, Cyrus is depicted as a hardline sociopath. In the anime, he's depicted as a hardline sociopath. In the generations adaptation, he's depicted as a hardline sociopath and in the manga, guess what? He's depicted as a hardline sociopath or at least at first anyway. In fact, I would have to say that this manga depicts Cyrus as a hardline sociopath better than any adaptation, even the games and generations adaptation. In fact he's actually more intimidating with the fact that he can literally challenge Cynthia, the Pokemon Champion, on equal footing. Actually Cyrus pushes Cynthia into a corner forcing her to use an incomplete move, Draco Meteor. This is by far the best depiction of the nihilistic Cyrus.

And it's because of how believable Cyrus is as this nihilistic selfish intimidating madman is because what happens next is surprising and kind of heartwarming actually. It's the idea that any person can change.

Expanding on what was only hinted at in the games through his friendship with Crobat, he hasn't completely thrown away his humanity. In a surprising twist in what appeared to be the most faithful version of Cyrus, Cyrus realizes that not only what he did was wrong but his plans failed because he believed he was an incomplete human being. He believed Diamond (Lucas), Pearl (Barry) and Platina (Dawn) are incomplete beings alone but complete when they fight together. It's from his failures that Cyrus has a change of heart. Similar to how Diamond, Pearl and Platina symbolize Emotion, Willpower and Knowledge, Cyrus represents Gratitude as in he now has a newfound gratitude for life. He's no longer the nihilistic sociopath before but is recognized by Shaymin as a human being full of heart. It's through this gratitude that one of the most beautiful depictions of Shaymin happen. Shaymin transforms into his Skye form. If you know the lore, Shaymin can only do this if it senses a person full of gratitude for life and it's Cyrus of all people. To this day, I think this is the most heartwarming and hopeful turning point I've ever seen in a Pokemon villain.

tumblr_p1r0woxBTA1ss3mq9o1_500.png
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
Nockturne said:
The prophecy in the second movie that says "the world will turn to ash" so you think it means the world will get destroyed, but it actually meant the world will turn to Ash (Ketchum) to save it when Lugia fails, blew my six year old MIND.

While I suppose it counts as a twist, that was a dub-only line. The original prophecy didn't include that part, and in fact the original second movie in general didn't pander to Satoshi as much as the dub did.
 

Ariki

Well-Known Member
To both Lolipiece and Shoz999
I can't blame you for not seeing it since Sun and Moon did a pretty bad job at stating it.
We only had Guzma's word at what it is like to have one of those things latch onto you. (He did not merge into something like the mother beast.)
Pre game notes on Nihilego redirecting priorities by altering the brain with their venom. As well as Wicke's report on what the venom does to people. (In fact most of the things regarding depth to Lusamine were ALL in easy to miss dialogue in the post game. All of that stemmed into bad writing and if Mohn was the sole factor to... all of that, then Lillie has even LESS logical reasons to want to save her. Which goes against the climax of that narrative telling us that Lusamine's recovery would be a good thing.)

While S/M did a very poor way of explaining Nihilego's influence, it is however better explained in another source connecting to Gen 7

US/UM and how it did its take on her character, where her villainy was toned down a couple notches for what seems to be no reason until you compare and contrast the two Lusamine's.

I'll copy what I debated in a previous forum, since it list all of the differences and similarities.

1. During your first visit in Aether Paradise, Nihilego shows up in a wormhole. Nothing different happened in either games until after you defeat it, then Lusamine talks to herself about getting something back.
In S/M she flashes an evil smile and talks about protecting/ loving Nihilego. Then starting being vague on what is going on down at the labs, Wicke admitted that it may have not been an accident for the wormhole opening up.
In US/UM, that evil smile does not happen and the URS show up to explain their part in assisting Aether. In contrast, Lusamine is MORE open to what was happening down at the labs, they were doing an experiment that didn't work as intended, Wicke treats it like it was an accident.

2. Next, when you go rescue Lillie. Lusamine in both versions verbally talked down on her, in S/M she had an enraged snarl on her face, showing hate. In US/UM, she had a disappointed/ hurt expression. In S/M, the verbal abuse continues at its worse by saying Lillie wasn't beautiful and told Lillie to stay around and watch her summon the beasts, knowing it might kill Nebby. In US/UM, she called Lillie's behavior unattractive and talks about still wanting to protect her from Necrozma. In S/M, Lusamine taunts Lillie more about forcing Nebby to use its power whether it wants to or not, with more cruel words; in US/UM Lusamine still said that using Nebby's power will kill it, but if it is for the greater good, it will have to be done. Then she leaves to her freezer closet with parting words. S/M it was more cruel taunting with a cruel smile. While in US/UM Lusamine gave Lillie credit where it is due for keeping Cosmog safe and thanking her with a more genuine smile. (To Lusamine, the words are more kind, when they come out... it is basic villain cliche, thanking the hero for doing something for them.)

3. Now for the confrontation in the freezer room. In S/M, Lusamine rambled about how Nihilego must be suffering in Ultra Space and thinks letting it out to do what ever it wants to Alola would help it, while screaming at her kids for stealing her stuff and betraying her. Saying that they no longer matter to her, she even taunts in how many wormholes will open up if she used the whole Cosmog.
In US/UM, she rambles how she can't love those close to her if the light is stolen, taking it upon herself to go fight Necrozma. In her childrens pleas, specifically when Gladion mentions Mohn Lusamine acknowledges the memory of what happened that day as her excuse to go after Necrozma by herself. Despite like in S/M, she called her kids wretches for leaving her, she is still determined to protect them from Necrozma. With the intended goal of using Nebby to make just one wormhole that she might have control over.

In S/M she used the box without hesitation, taunts Lillie more and use it to open the wormholes with psychotic glee. Only caring about Nihilego, ordering Guzma that she doesn't want to hear from the annoying kids again and wants to silence (Potentially a homicidal metaphor.) you the player. In US/UM she hesitates to use the box and when Nebby resists, she gave praise to Cosmog for its love of Lillie and was rather happy that her kids grew up away from her eyes. But still bound to her self appointed duty, does not want anyone to interfere and challenges you the player to silence any worries her kids might have for her, by proving how she can fare in battle. (This one, is not a homicidal metaphor.) Post battle, she gives a praise to you the player, has Guzma come along with her because she wouldn't be fighting Necrozma alone, then uses the Nebby box with no sign of joy in it.

In S/M, she was acting on her most extreme without the moral inhibitor called a consciousness, while rambling about the Ultra Beasts or specifically, Nihilego. (Every single symptom of being on the venom as we heard from Wicke.)

When in US/UM Lusamine was much more tame while having other priorities on her mind that was more around getting revenge on the Beasts than anything like we saw in the previous game, in fact in US/UM she isn't even homicidal or on the wall insane. (Still a couple screws short, which came from losing Mohn.)

This is the best side by side comparison of the character development divergences of Lusamine between SM and USUM. Thank you!
 

buskalilly

Well-Known Member
The prophecy in the second movie that says "the world will turn to ash" so you think it means the world will get destroyed, but it actually meant the world will turn to Ash (Ketchum) to save it when Lugia fails, blew my six year old MIND.

Anime-wise, the reveal that Sammy is actually Professor Oak from 40 years ago

Both of these absolutely blew my mind . . . when I was a tiny little Buskalilly. I was actually scrolling through this thread thinking there weren't really any twists in Pokemon that properly got me, but then you reminded me. Cheesy and dumb, sure, but absolutely perfect for the target audience.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
To me that whole "Sammy is Oak" twist seemed kind of hollow though since nothing ever came of it since none of the main cast members discovered that revelation. It was done for shock value and nothing more it felt like.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
To me that whole "Sammy is Oak" twist seemed kind of hollow though since nothing ever came of it since none of the main cast members discovered that revelation. It was done for shock value and nothing more it felt like.
You know what was quite a twist with a young Prof. Oak? In Pokemon Adventures, it's revealed HE'S THE PREVIOUS POKEMON CHAMPION! And his Green-mirrored rival is none other than Agatha! This unexpected take for Prof. Oak surprised me the first time and yet it made so much sense!

In fact it's believed to be a reference to GameFreak's original idea of having the Professor as the Pokemon Champion, not Green. However surprisingly what's an even bigger twist is that this seemingly harmless friendship and rivalry Prof. Oak has with his fellow kids who've grown old and distant, becoming Elite Four members or Gym Leaders or get married and have grandchildren comes to haunt him and his candidates for the Pokedex later, serving as the background lore or origin story of some of the Pokemon series best stories, the Yellow and GSC story arc. How or why? That's for you to find out! Funny thing is, Oak and Agatha's bitter relationship is rarely, if ever, explored or hinted outside of the manga until Pokemon Generations showed up.

DNjPZmfUIAIpfHG.jpg
 
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Ducolamia

SAYYYY WHAT???
A have to say Detective Pikachu had a lot of red herrings in the game. In every case there was at least one that had the looks and feel to be the actual suspect. The biggest one for was the dude that worked with the Solosis line, his look his creepy smile just screamed a mad scientist that was up to somethings!

Yeah. Detective Pikachu is alright as a mystery game. It's no Pheonix Wright, but it's still enjoyable and the red herrings are surprisingly good. I'm glad they didn't just make every character's arc end with the true and honest villian being a pokemon the entire time. I expected it to be that for the rest of the game, but instead it actually told an engaging story. That dude who worked for the Solosis line really threw me off but the main twist
Involving Gengar being an accomplice and was something I didn't even notice until I replayed the footage.
They really use the pokemon to their advantage here, but I'm glad they didn't make is super annoying to figure out either.

That being said. Check out detective Pikachu. It's a bit underrated.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
Just remembered a plot twist that caught me off-guard. I don't know about you guys but when a new Pokemon game comes out, I almost always look at all the new Pokemon. What I don't look at is the story so what happened during the Sun and Moon games at the Pokemon League caught me off-guard. The last and final opponent you battle to become champion is none other than Prof. Kukui. This was an awesome moment that put a big smile on my face, instantly making me wonder if this was a reference to how Prof. Oak was originally supposed to be the champion of the original Red and Green games. Don't know about you but Sun and Moon is easily in my top three favorite Pokemon games behind Johto and Unova.
 
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