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Greninja Discussion Thread

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Greninja is waaaaay better in this metagame than Infernape is. Protean and base 122 Spe are actually really big deals. Protean is so fantastic because it essentially tosses on a free Choice Band/Specs boost on to all of Greninja's coverage moves, which lets it blow past Pokemon that might otherwise be able to handle them. Just to put this power boost into perspective, a completely uninvested Timid LO Greninja's U-turn is hitting about as hard as a U-turn from a fully invested Jolly LO Infernape. Even though Greninja's bulk isn't great, it can still use Protean defensively to mess with checks and survive weaker hits. For instance, it can do massive damage to Rotom-W with HP Grass and reduce its Volt Switch to ~20% damage, whereas it would otherwise do upwards of ~87%. The extra speed is very important as well because it lets Greninja outspeed a lot of Pokemon that Infernape either loses to or is forced into a speed tie against, namely Latios, Latias, Gengar, Espeon, Thundurus, Terrakion, Keldeo, Starmie, Alakazam, and, of course, Infernape itself. In fact, Greninja outspeeds pretty much the entire unboosted metagame besides Deoxys-S and Mega Alakazam/Manectric.

Infernape, on the other hand, just has a lot of problems. Its offenses are a little better than Greninja's, but that advantage is often negated by the fact that Infernape generally finds itself splitting offensive investment to take advantage of its mixed abilities. It also lacks the substantial power boost to its coverage moves that Greninja gets with Protean, which is one thing that makes Greninja so powerful since it can turn even Hidden Power into a strong coverage move. Above all else, though, Infernape just faces so much competition that it's generally not worth using over something else. As far as "fast Fighting-type that can attack specially and still get past Chansey/Blissey" goes, Keldeo is just such a better choice due to its excellent power, solid bulk, better typing, and lack of a need to split offenses in order to go mixed. On the physical side, Infernape faces a ton of competition from Terrakion as well due to the latter's much greater physical power, excellent neutral coverage between its STABs alone, and (again) better bulk. It also faces a ton of competition as an offensive Fire-type from Pokemon such as Talonflame and the Mega Charizards. Heck, even its abilities as a mixed attacker are often overshadowed by offensive behemoths like Kyurem-B. Meanwhile, nothing really gives Greninja a ton of competition. The only other specially offensive Water-types that come even close to Greninja's offensive prowess are Starmie and Keldeo, the former of which is almost completely overshadowed outside of Rapid Spin and the latter of which is fantastic but still lacks U-turn, Protean, strong Ice coverage, a solid coverage move to help get past Mega Venusaur (even Specs HP Flying can't guarantee a 2HKO on 252/0 MegaSaur without Stealth Rock), or a base 122 Spe stat, each of which are parts of what make Greninja so great.

tl;dr: Greninja is really good, but Infernape is honestly pretty mediocre in this metagame.
 
^ Just want to point out that Alakazam beats Greninja since he has a base 125 speed stat. I'm assuming you thought it was base 120 or something.

... Anyways, I'd just like to say that physical Greninja is actually pretty good. Power Up Punch / Rock Slide / Waterfall / Shadow Sneak / Night Slash (pick four) allow him to face many threats that think they can beat him. Most notably, Mega TTar takes a clean 70% from Waterfall, which is a lot more than Hydro Pump will do. Considering that it will do even more against AV TTar, that in itself is impressive. He's not as powerful as the special set, but it definitely deserves more credit than it gets.
 
No, it is base 120.

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/065.shtml
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Alakazam_(Pokémon)

EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't use physical Greninja. The surprise factor isn't worth the fact that physical Greninja is so much weaker than special Greninja, especially considering its lower Atk stat and the fact that its strongest move is Waterfall, which does not actually outdamage Hydro Pump against Mega Tyranitar:

252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The one good thing about physical Greninja is that it gets Power-Up Punch as a boosting move, which special sets lack, but it's still not that impressive seeing as how a +1 Waterfall barely outdamages a +0 Hydro Pump. Greninja is far better off just tossing around Hydro Pumps and other powerful special coverage moves than trying to sweep with a Power-Up Punch set. Even its special coverage moves are better, and it can compensate for any coverage it doesn't already have with a STAB-boosted Hidden Power of any type it chooses.

Maybe if Greninja had Swords Dance, Flying Gem was still a thing, and Water Shuriken had like 25 BP, I could see a Swords Dance / Acrobatics / Night Slash / Water Shuriken (or even just Waterfall, if you prefer more reliable Water coverage over priority) working pretty well, but alas.
 
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KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
... Anyways, I'd just like to say that physical Greninja is actually pretty good. Power Up Punch / Rock Slide / Waterfall / Shadow Sneak / Night Slash (pick four) allow him to face many threats that think they can beat him. Most notably, Mega TTar takes a clean 70% from Waterfall, which is a lot more than Hydro Pump will do. Considering that it will do even more against AV TTar, that in itself is impressive. He's not as powerful as the special set, but it definitely deserves more credit than it gets.

Physical Greninja is definitely an interesting concept. It does have a certain surprise value to it since the the bulk of Greninja are specially based, so its typical counters are as well. Seems like an interesting lure set, although the general decrease in power could be somewhat noticeable as well. Certainly far from standard, but usable for sure.
 

I Like Pie!

Smile smile smile!
Physical Greninja is an awesome surprise Pokémon. Blissey takes good damage from PuP and from there, the Attack boost and the great Speed allow Greninja to pull off a surprise sweep.
 
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