Greninja Discussion Thread

[The Imposter]

I think Greninja's problem it's predictable. Goodra owns it because the obvious ice beam is checked by a flamethrower.

The thing is that Greninja is good at what it does - forcing switches and gaining momentum on them. Not only is it a decent wallbreaker, it also serves as a scout; I personally use it as a way of scaring out the counters to my main sweeper and bringing in things it can handle.

The bans of Mega Luke and Genesect really helped Greninja, as they took the roles of "fast, frail sweeper that can gain momentum" and pulled them off better than Greninja ever could. It'll never be as good as people thought it would be when the hype train went through Kalos, but things are looking up for it.

 

[Clone™]

I think Greninja's problem it's predictable. Goodra owns it because the obvious ice beam is checked by a flamethrower.

Goodra isn't as common as he used to be with the bans. In all honesty, there is nothing stopping Greninja from U-Turning into a teammate who can stomache the weak hits that Goodra throws out. Considering that Goodra loses to 90% of all physical attackers, that doesn't say much about Greninja, since he wouldn't stay in anyways. And just switch into one of those physical attackers.

 

[KillerDraco]

I think Greninja's problem it's predictable. Goodra owns it because the obvious ice beam is checked by a flamethrower.

Goodra is a poor example because it's equally predictable. If you see a Goodra in today's metagame, odds are it's carrying an Assault Vest (over half of Goodra being used do so). In which case, why would a Greninja do anything other than U-Turn out of there? Greninja only 3HKOs Goodra, so unless you're in dire straights, you won't be staying in anyway. Goodra's more of a counter than a check, and even then, this is true of a lot of special attackers, that can't really break the vest wearing slime dragon. It's not really a Greninja exclusive thing, you know?

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 151-182 (39.3 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Edit: Since my post was a little vague, I realize Goodra does have a considerably larger pool of viable moves. The mention of it being predictable was in the sense that it's almost always going to go Assault Vest + 4 Attacks, and it's pretty much always gonna counter a considerable number of special attackers regardless of the moves it uses, such that you know it's pretty much always a fool's endeavor to try and keep your Greninja (in addition to a number of other special attackers) in on Goodra.

 

[imran3]

My Greninja-

Focus Sash
Protean

Mat Block
Ice Beam
U-Turn
Dark Pulse

 

[Clone™]

My Greninja-

Focus Sash
Protean

Mat Block
Ice Beam
U-Turn
Dark Pulse

Umm... No...

Life Orb > Focus Sash

Hydro Pump >>>>>>Mat Block

Set should be this:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Protean
Timid/Naive Nature
EVs: 4 Atk 252 SpAtk 252 Spe
-Hydro Pump
-Dark Pulse/ Extra Sensory
-U-Turn
-Ice Beam

 

[imran3]

I use it for triples actually. And my life orb is with Zoroark.
Yeah, it's Timid also.

 

[Clone™]

I use it for triples actually. And my life orb is with Zoroark.
Yeah, it's Timid also.

Should've mentioned that.

And why don't you have surf?

 

[imran3]

Sorry about that.

I don't want my Blaziken to die . And if I did bring in a Gastrodon, he'd steal all my Surfs for his SP attack. (If not so, then I'd be happy). The prob is, I'm still looking for a Gastrodon. I'll post it on that forums.

 

[XXD17]

Why do I see greninjas running scald now? Is there something I wasn't aware of? I mean even after a burn, greninja would still be kinda frail...

 

[imran3]

@Blazer, thanks for helping me out. WIll try for Surf on Gastrodon.

 

[Clone™]

Why do I see greninjas running scald now? Is there something I wasn't aware of? I mean even after a burn, greninja would still be kinda frail...

Because the people running that have no knowledge of the metagame, or what's good for that matter. I'm sure that the rest of their teams are trash too.

Hydro Pump>>>>>>>>>>>>Scald.

Never use it. Greninja needs the extra 50% power provided by Hydro Pump.

 

[jesusfreak94]

...or maybe it's because Scald is one of the best offensive moves in the game because it has a solid damage output and has the bonus of potentially hurting Water resists with a burn while also not having the accuracy problems of Hydro Pump. I mean, I'd probably rather run Hydro Pump 90% of the time, but as far as the more accurate alternatives go, Scald is really good. Several solid switch-ins to common Greninja sets such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Gyarados could honestly not care less about Hydro Pump, but none of them like to be burned by Scald (and several of them are outright crippled by the burn). Its a Water move that you can spam with ease and still potentially cripple any Water resists that switch in on you. Besides, close to 1/5 Greninja run Scald in the 1760 moveset statistics, so it's not like only bad players are using it.

Also, Hydro Pump is 37.5% stronger than Scald, not 50%.

 

[Clone™]

I guess that makes sense. I'd still rather have the power tho. I find that Scald is best used for defensive Pokémon, since they benefit the most from burns. And what exactly does Megasaur lose from a burn aside from 12.5% HP? Earthquake I guess, but it's not like Megasaur relies on that move for everything.

I keep forgetting about the power drop from 120 to 110, which is why I said 50%

 

[XXD17]

...or maybe it's because Scald is one of the best offensive moves in the game because it has a solid damage output and has the bonus of potentially hurting Water resists with a burn while also not having the accuracy problems of Hydro Pump. I mean, I'd probably rather run Hydro Pump 90% of the time, but as far as the more accurate alternatives go, Scald is really good. Several solid switch-ins to common Greninja sets such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Gyarados could honestly not care less about Hydro Pump, but none of them like to be burned by Scald (and several of them are outright crippled by the burn). Its a Water move that you can spam with ease and still potentially cripple any Water resists that switch in on you. Besides, close to 1/5 Greninja run Scald in the 1760 moveset statistics, so it's not like only bad players are using it.

Also, Hydro Pump is 37.5% stronger than Scald, not 50%.

See that's what I thought...but it doesn't make much sense to me because that only works with greninja if you can accurately predict the switch and get the chance to burn the thing switching in...If the opponent decides to stay in, then greninja's going down considering scald can't really OKO things that are neutrally resistant even with life orb (I have a modest one with maxed special attack and it's scald can't OKO scizors even with rock damage)...that's why I switched over to surf...it has good power and great accuracy (unlike hydro pump)...and it can OKO most nonresistant things with rock damage...for a pokemon so focused on power like greninja, I thought it needed power moves more than getting a potential burn...

 

[jesusfreak94]

And what exactly does Megasaur lose from a burn aside from 12.5% HP?

It's mostly just the 1/8 damage every turn. Mega Venusaur hates burns since it has no Leftovers recovery and thus is affected a lot more by residual damage than if it had them. It's the single greatest reason why it's a shaky switch-in to Rotom-W.

See that's what I thought...but it doesn't make much sense to me because that only works with greninja if you can accurately predict the switch and get the chance to burn the thing switching in...

The great thing about Scald is that you don't have to predict. Water is just a great offensive type in general, and with the exception of Water-immune Pokemon, a handful of things that can heal status, and bulky versions of Mega Charizard X, everything that switches into Scald is going to be hit really hard and/or risk suffering a burn. There are also a ton of Pokemon that were commonly used last generation to handle Scald through immunities or status healing that are far less common in XY, such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Celebi, and Starmie, which is great for Scald spam.

If the opponent decides to stay in, then greninja's going down considering scald can't really OKO things that are neutrally resistant even with life orb (I have a modest one with maxed special attack and it's scald can't OKO scizors even with rock damage)...that's why I switched over to surf...it has good power and great accuracy (unlike hydro pump)...and it can OKO most nonresistant things with rock damage...for a pokemon so focused on power like greninja, I thought it needed power moves more than getting a potential burn...

To be fair, even Modest LO Hydro Pump rarely OHKOs Scizor after Stealth Rock unless it's fully offensive with no HP investment, which is pretty rare. I understand the need for more power, but I'd just rather go for Hydro Pump in that case. When it comes to Scald vs Surf as far as more accurate options to, I almost always go for Scald just because that burn chance is so insane. If you can get a successful burn, Scald can even outdamage Surf in the long run, and it'll continue to damage burned opponents even after Greninja has left the field. ginganinja from Smogon had a good summary of what makes Scald so good in a thread about banning philosophy a while back.

For those that are unused to OU, the main reason why Scald is so frustrating is because there lacks any decent counter play towards it. Your best defence, against Scald, is to use Dry Skin / Water Absorb / Storm Drain / Natural Cure mons, of which there is a limited number, or simply pray you don’t get screwed over by an untimely burn, which simply happens more often than not because it is very easy for Rain teams to use the move, consistently spam it, and get the burns required.

In regards to the move itself, it has average base power, it gets boosted by the ever common rain, it has no shortage of abusers (ie pokemon that can rely upon it as a general STAB move), it has a 30% burn rate, and it is just so spammable which makes switching in exceptionally difficult. Often, I can bring in my Tentacruel, my Jellicent, my Politoed, and literally 90% of the time, spamming Scald is always the best option because I can a) get good damage on something, and b) have a 30% chance at crippling the best switch-ins to Scald. Ferrothorn for example, cannot switch in on Tentacruel, heck, Tentacruel often switches in on Ferrothorn, simply because it can and will burn Ferrothorn thus crippling it for the rest of the match. Even Latias and Rotom-W hate getting burnt, because that residual damage, along with the ever common Stealth Rock (for instance), just pushes them into KOs from other high powered sweepers such as Keldeo.

Obviously, not all of this still applies. Several of the safe switch-ins ginganinja mentioned aren't as common or viable anymore, but at the same time, Rain isn't omnipresent like it used to be, but there's still a lot of truth there that still applies to today's metagame. It's all up to preference really, so it really depends on if there's some particular KOs that you need that extra 12.5% power to achieve.

tl;dr: STAB Scald is pretty much always a good option.

 

[PaulTheBreeder]

This guy has the potential of being in ubers once people get the hang of using him.
Early in battles to attempt a sweep is really ridiculous. Using a Greninja late in battle nearly always guarantees a win.... Too OP, I had to retrain my Aerodactyl's ev's just specifically to finish them... Their speed is phenomenal, boosted with whatever nature raises their speed makes them impossible to relinquish. However, they do a fine job at beating other ubers. Probably the best for exterminating dragons in my opinion, so salamence and garchomp aren't as powerful as they used to be. However a long range of other powerhouses are put down quite easily by this stupid looking Kermit.. What do you guys think?

 

[KillerDraco]

This guy has the potential of being in ubers once people get the hang of using him.
Early in battles to attempt a sweep is really ridiculous. Using a Greninja late in battle nearly always guarantees a win.... Too OP, I had to retrain my Aerodactyl's ev's just specifically to finish them... Their speed is phenomenal, boosted with whatever nature raises their speed makes them impossible to relinquish. However, they do a fine job at beating other ubers. Probably the best for exterminating dragons in my opinion, so salamence and garchomp aren't as powerful as they used to be. However a long range of other powerhouses are put down quite easily by this stupid looking Kermit.. What do you guys think?

Um... no. Greninja falls well short of being Uber. It'd just be a poor man's Deoxys-A in Uber. Its base 122 Speed is by all means great, but it's not unbeatable. It may have STAB on everything (which is nice), but its base 103 Special Attack isn't especially high. It's also very frail and can't take a hit to save its life; it's at least 2HKO'd by virtually everything in the Metagame, meaning its hard to switch in. It's also pretty predictable; virtually every offensive Greninja in existence will be carrying Life Orb, Hydro Pump/Surf/Scald, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam, plus either U-Turn or Extrasensory. It's also pretty easy to check with priority due to its extreme frailty, especially when its type change can remove resistances. For example, just KO'd Dragonite with Ice Beam? Prone to being checked by Bullet Punches. Just KO'd Gengar with Dark Pulse? Better watch out for those Mach Punches.

Greninja is certainly good, but saying it'll be uber is a MASSIVE overstatement.

 

[Clone™]

There's still no chance of him being Ubers. He's not overcentralizing in any way on OU. Draco explained this pretty much already, so I don't feel like restating what he already said.

 

[Jirachiness]

Pretty far from uber. Strong mon though. Should pretty much always run U-turn, otherwise it's a complete liability against any defensive team. STAB U-turn does more than chip damage to any switch-in, which is pretty important against teams carrying Chansey. With U-turn you don't have to run Extrasensory for Venusaur as one switch-in to rocks and U-turn means it can't come in again. Feels really underwhelming to use, and really difficult to play against, particularly with offense.

 

[Mye]

For me, greninja is a missed opportunity. Less defenses than infernape (72/67/71 compared to 76/71/71), less attacking stats than infernape (95/103 compared to 104/104), and arguably a weaker movepool (infernape has access to nasty plot, swords dance, stealth rock, two different priority moves, and access to 8 different usable moves with 100 or more base power whereas greninja only has (toxic) spikes and hydro pump/acrobatics). The only redeeming quality of greninja is access to protean and 14 higher speed. Thus, greninja can hit initially harder than infernape can but is completely walled by more pokemon in the metagame.

If you really want to screw over things though, using both on the same team is actually pretty decent as they have amazing synergy together, with greninja killing ground/dragon types/crobat and infernape killing off steels/blissey.