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Greninja Discussion

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by Minedreigon, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Aeon™

    Aeon™ Rock Ultimate

    Well I've never really considered frail being a good arguement. Fraility doesn't matter too much when you're outspeeding everything. However, that does make it rather simple for priority users or scarfers to chase it out. Combine that with Stealth Rock damage + Life Orb damage, because who doesn't run Life Orb, and it looses HP way fast.
     
  2. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    I know it's probably not a "valid" point as excadrill was in ubers for all of 5th gen, but if Greninja is banned to ubers I doubt it'll see any use there. The list of things in that tier that can take a hit from it, outspeed it, and kill it is pretty long (the arceus forms do a nifty job of it, as does palkia and the mega mewtwo forms). The entire tier can also decently revenge kill it, so unless it's baton passed boosts I'm pretty sure its banishment to ubers would essentially be the death of any actual competitive use of it.
     
  3. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    To be fair, Aegislash, Mega Mawile and Mega Lucario find themselves in a similar situation in Ubers to varying degrees. None of them are particularly amazing in the tier nor do they get great usage last I saw (except arguably Aegislash because Xerneas), but they all do have some usability in the tier. Greninja also does have a niche in Ubers already for being a decent anti Deoxys-S lead thanks to Shadow Sneak, but doesn't have much else since it does lack a lot of power to pull off standard offensive sets. Not that performance in Ubers is a decisive indicator of whether or not something should be Uber, of course.
     
  4. ger9119

    ger9119 Well-Known Member

    Well it's offically being suspected. How many of you are going to try and get voting reqs, I know i am.
     
  5. Disaster_Lord

    Disaster_Lord Sad Bayleef is Sad.

    So am I. Kermitt must die.
     
  6. Aeon™

    Aeon™ Rock Ultimate

    I'll try but I doubt I'll make it. How high are reqs?
     
  7. Mr. Reloaded

    Mr. Reloaded An enigma

    If the only counter arguments are gonna be fragility, "git gud" and priority then I recommend a bunch of them to play higher on the ladder.

    Frailness and priority aren't good arguments (see Mega Luke and Blaziken).

    Greninja isn't "unbeatable" but overcenteralizing which isn't good.
     
  8. Disaster_Lord

    Disaster_Lord Sad Bayleef is Sad.

    He restricts team building so hard it isn't funny. I must admit I rediscovered my love for umbreon in this Greninja meta, but I wonder what kind of pokemon would be viable without the frog.
     
  9. Afrodisiac

    Afrodisiac break up w yo gf, im bored

    Greninja has become my favorite Pokémon of all time, and I love using it in OU, but seriously, the pro-ban arguments have finally convinced me to support this .Greninja is just a nightmare to balanced/HO teams and restricts TB like crazy, I don't want to use that stupid P2 thing to check it -___-

    So yeah, I'm glad it's going. Wonder how it'll affect the metagame, who's gonna claim it's throne?.
     
  10. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    I'm thinking frogadier could actually work as a decent replacement for it. Don't get me wrong, its stats are just garbage for OU (its stats are essentially 20 points lower on offense and about 15 on defense) but with protean and a choice item, it could theoretically be OU-usable without being overpowered.
     
  11. Afrodisiac

    Afrodisiac break up w yo gf, im bored

    Nah, it wouldn't work. Base 63 attack is too pathetic for Gunk Shot, also it's speed tier is actually bad in the current meta, so no.

    Maybe Starmie will rise again.
     
  12. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Doubt it. It's not the lower offenses or defenses that would truly stifle it; it's the lower speed. That 25 less speed is a huge difference, since at base 122 Greninja outspeeds a huge portion of the Metagame, while Frogadier's base 97 speed is fairly underwhelming. Especially since the new Mega Evolutions of OR/AS have brought a little bit of a speed creep as well, what with things like Mega Gallade, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Metagross running around. Being below the base 100 "average" does it no favors. Don't get me wrong, its lower power is significant, and it won't survive ANY hit, but with that poor speed tier? It's just not enough.
     
  13. Afrodisiac

    Afrodisiac break up w yo gf, im bored

    I'm actually sad lol. My Mega Lopunny + Greninja core is extremely effective, it'll be hard to find a good replacement. But it doesn't matter, this ban will provide a much healthier metagame, balance won't get screwed that hard, teams won't carry obsolete (IMO) scarfers like Magneton, or outclassed and overly passive stuff for a HO team in OU like CroCune, Porygon2 and Umbreon.

    The anti-ban discussion over Smogon has been really childish, I was hoping to see some good counterarguments to the more elaborated and wise pro-ban ones.
     
  14. Recon

    Recon 11001101011101010100

    So me and a couple of college friends had a brief discussion on this whole Greninja scenario. We all think that it's a bit premature and tried to think of potential counters.

    One example we kept going back to during our 30 minute discussion was a Dualscreens Klefki. We hadn't tried it, but on paper it seemed pretty good. It either takes neutral damage or resists all of Greninja's attacks, bar HP Fire and Dig (lol), and always outspeeds due to Prankster. It can also cripple Greninja with T-Wave, and then it can have some other utility move like Spikes or Taunt for other walls.

    We know that Klefki is not a viable Pokemon for every team, and Dualscreens is not a strategy every team needs, but we felt that that for the metagame to evolve, people need to try out new strategies, and that this would be a good starting point.
     
  15. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon A monument to all your sins

    My problem with Greninja is how no matter how the metagame adapts, Greninja can always adapt back. Say, if on balanced, (for the record, Greninja destroys HO and popular balanced cores, whilst also putting in a lot of work vs stall) people began to use Alomomola. Due to adaptation likely to come in the form of conditional counters at best without being totally unviable, Greninja WILL be able to adapt, in this case with HP Grass. Basically, Greninja screws teambuilding for a HO/Balanced player such as myself and definitely makes a Stall player have to think a lot more when building as well, and throws the metagame in an endless cycle of adaptation and Greninja adapting back. I deem this extremely unhealthy for the metagame, and this is the main reason I think it should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  16. Clone™

    Clone™ Ded

    Reposting from the VR Suspect thread on Smogon:

    It's time.

    Ever since I first started hearing complaints about Greninja when ORAS came out, I still held the views that I did during late XY where I found Greninja to be extremely good, but not overpowered. As time went on, however, I started to see how Greninja had an unhealthy presence in the metagame. I found that many of my balance. Teams had to be reworked to not be 6-0ed by Greninja (and by 6-0ed I mean 6-0ed with minimal team support like VoltTurn and rox n ****), which was not fun as they were otherwise solid versus the rest of the metagame. Whenever I was making a balanced squad I always had to deviate from my original ideas simply because I found that many common cores I used were shat on by the frog. Even simple FWG cores like tran / bro / Celebi | ches, which handled a lot of the metagame, were falling to the standard Greninja set of Low Kick / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / Gunk Shot.

    And that's when my views on Greninja started to change. I found myself resorting to hyper offense more often than not, simply because the playstyle allowed me to dictate how matches would go from turn one. That might sound fine and dandy, but HO never was my favorite play style, and even ignoring that HO is really match up reliant. I used HO to improve my matchup against Greninja (ironically, the team I use doesn't even have Greninja, lol). I had to resort to a play style that I wasn't entirely comfortable with, simply because of one mon. Hell, for a time I was even using stall, simply because I hated seeing Greninja in the team preview and knowing that I'm in for a tough battle (btw I ****ing hate stall, which goes to say something at the very least). However, this leads to my next point, which as a heads up, might seem a bit confusing at first.

    Despite what I said above, I still do not hold the view that Greninja is overpowered. I say this because as I stated above, HO and stall both match up well against him, contrary to popular belief. HO May not have switch ins for him, but HO doesn't have switch ins for a lot of things. HO just has switch ins for mons that are very common and somewhat exploitable, such as Latios or Scarf Lando T. Hyper offense is an extremely high risk high reward play style that is hit or miss, and Greninja doesn't change that more than any other mon. I'd even argue that Mega Lopunny is worse for HO due to Fake Out, Scrappy, and an even higher speed tier. The other playstyle I mentioned was stall, which simply does not give a **** about Greninja in the slightest. Chansey is a staple of stall and counters all non CB Low a Kick variants of Greninja (lol pls don't run that unless u like giving out free wins). No matter what anyone says, Greninja has no way of breaking 252 / 252+ Chansey that is played competently. Any competent player can beat a Greninja if all it can do is 3HKO the mon you send in. Despite her passiveness, she won't lose to Greninja. And even then, SpDef Mega Sableye is a thing (and trust me it's really good as it handles other things than ninja!!!), as well as Tentacruel, Alomomomomomomola, Mega Venusaur, and Suicune. All of these are common / relatively common stall mons that beat ninja and when paired up with other stall mons, fare well against the rest of the meta. Greninja can't break these mons and will kill itself through LO recoil before it can crit its way through according to the law of probability.

    One last thing before I wrap this up: balance isn't helpless against Greninja. Despite what I said above about having to give up playing balance, I've still seen balance squads fare well against Greninja. Teams that feature mons like AV Conk, alomomomola, Bulky Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Chansey all have ways of beating the frog. It may be difficult, but the possibility is still there. It just takes creative teambuilding and the ability to make plays. I struggle with Greninja when playing Balance because I lack the creative teambuilding skills that other, better players possess. Regardless, Greninja is still a threat to balance and is definitely centralizing to the tier.

    Now, that last sentence is important because that is where my stance on the issue is and where my vote will lie once I achieve reqs. As anti ban as this post may seem, I still hold the view that Greninja should be banned from the OU tier. I do not find him OP. I find him unhealthy. I find him unhealthy to the point where I feel pressured to play with teams I would otherwise use as little as possible. (Such as stall or some HO teams) just so I don't feel insanely pressured whenever I see Greninja in the team preview. Greninja limits teambuilding and limits it in ways where certain cores and mons simply do not work because he singlehandedly renders them obsolete, where they would otherwise fare well against the rest of the metagame. My experience on the suspect ladder confirms this, as from the games I have played so far I have enjoyed the tier a lot more with Greninja absent from it.

    Greninja, your my second favorite mon, and it pains me to say this, but it's time for you to join your fellow starter (Blaziken) in the Ubers tier, as OU simply is not ready for you yet. I have to vote Ban.
     
  17. Aeon™

    Aeon™ Rock Ultimate

    Yeah what Clone said basically sums up my feelings as well. My changing experience was one of my finals matches in Santa's Helper, over in the tournament section.* I beat my opponent in two matches relatively quickly because my greninja demolished his teams, and if greninja wasn't around those would have been harder, more enjoyable matches. Coupled with my experiences on the suspect ladder, I'm moving my vote to Ban. Not that I'm likely to get reqs because that requires me to build a new team and I'm too lazy at the moment.

    EDIT 12/30/14: I'm currently around 1700 COIL on the suspect ladder :]

    *If you play comp and you're not participating in tournaments you should because they're so much fun.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  18. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

  19. ger9119

    ger9119 Well-Known Member

    Wow the vote surprises me well not that i didn't expect it to be banned but i expected it to be a lot closer.
     
  20. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    And with that, goes one of the most abused pokemon of all time. Fare the well, 6th gen's version of Scizor/Ninetales/Politoed, your ragequitting madness shall be missed (by almost noone).

    Also, with it in Ubers does anyone think Aegis will see more use in that tier? It checked it pretty decently prior to both of them being banned, now that they're both in ubers it could function almost identically (albeit with weakness policy to make things "interesting" ).
     

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