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Ground Zero Mosque (or cultural gathering centre for the politcally correct)

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
The problem isn't if American Muslims realize it or not, the problem is the very idea of preaching any verses that were used as justification for the September 11th attacks so close to Ground Zero is absolutely and utterly morally reprehensible.

And yet, they are doing it right down the street, and that's perfectly okay for you because it was built before 9/11? And again I say, do you really think they will preach those specific verses when they know how imperiled they are, being so close to Ground Zero? Don't you think they'll try to teach a historical perspective adddendum to it or otherwise try to neutralize the violence of Muhammed?

Well that is doubtful as seeing how the people are not petitioning the Government or the State to actually address it in legal ways. In effect the Founding Fathers could see it as no greater act of the American People, as you have two sides here, both believe they are right, having a very public dialogue about it with out the state stepping in and enforcing it's decision on what is right and what is wrong. How can you get any more American than that.

The protest and the other protest are great, the Founding Fathers would love the fact that we are peaceably protesting in a public dialogue about it, and I'm sure they too would be outraged if the state tried to intervene. You're dodging my point though. I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would have their own opinion and inevitably advocate one side over the other, even if they did not take any action.

If Congress cannot exercise power over the practice of religion, for the sake of the people, then what sense is it that people are going to the streets using their right to protest in order to try and mess with someone's right to practice their religion? Of course it is an American process, but after you're done being all proud of the fact it's a protest, there's also, do you agree with the message of the protest or not? And I do not believe they would.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
And yet, they are doing it right down the street, and that's perfectly okay for you because it was built before 9/11? And again I say, do you really think they will preach those specific verses when they know how imperiled they are, being so close to Ground Zero? Don't you think they'll try to teach a historical perspective adddendum to it or otherwise try to neutralize the violence of Muhammed?

I never said it was okay, I believe that the most moral thing they could do was move after 9/11, but I do not see why people should protest the Mosque as the construction of it was built before the attacks. The protest here is knowingly building the site as close as possible to the World Trace Center, AFTER the attacks.

The protest and the other protest are great, the Founding Fathers would love the fact that we are peaceably protesting in a public dialogue about it, and I'm sure they too would be outraged if the state tried to intervene. You're dodging my point though. I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would have their own opinion and inevitably advocate one side over the other, even if they did not take any action.

If Congress cannot exercise power over the practice of religion, for the sake of the people, then what sense is it that people are going to the streets using their right to protest in order to try and mess with someone's right to practice their religion? Of course it is an American process, but after you're done being all proud of the fact it's a protest, there's also, do you agree with the message of the protest or not? And I do not believe they would.

Except they are not asking for Congressional Action, they are essentually protesting for the radical Imam to move the mosque. For him to realize "Hey I am building this to build bridges and dialogue, keeping it here will only hurt everyone and won't do it, so I should move"

And what is the message of the protest? That a Radical Imam should not build a Mosque near such a sacred site? They are not saying "You cannot build a Mosque anywhere" which obviously would be intruding on their Freedom of Religion. They are just saying "Not here, not where Islam massacred so many people"
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
The message of the protest overwhelmingly comes off as "Your religion is not welcome here," which is odd, because Islam did not massacre the people on 9/11. Terrorists who were Muslims massacred people on 9/11 calling Americans evil, and of Satan, because our military was harassing their people. Islam is a scapegoat, it is the chain of world events that led to 9/11 that is to blame, not the worship of Allah.
 

BigLutz

Banned
The message of the protest overwhelmingly comes off as "Your religion is not welcome here," which is odd, because Islam did not massacre the people on 9/11. Terrorists who were Muslims massacred people on 9/11 calling Americans evil, and of Satan, because our military was harassing their people. Islam is a scapegoat, it is the chain of world events that led to 9/11 that is to blame, not the worship of Allah.

Both of those are not entirely true, the protest is overwhelmingly of "Your Religion is not welcome at this spot" the idea that it would not be welcome anywhere in New York or in the U.S. is wrong. It is the sacred spot that makes it special. And of course yes it was Islam that did kill people, remember some of their biggest gripes were that we we're not a Muslim Country, that we did not treat our women in such a horrible way as Islamic Law dictates, and that we had troops in Mecca. All of those are religious gripes, all of them are defined in Islam.
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
Both of those are not entirely true, the protest is overwhelmingly of "Your Religion is not welcome at this spot" the idea that it would not be welcome anywhere in New York or in the U.S. is wrong. It is the sacred spot that makes it special.

Thank you for assuming by "here" I meant allll of New York, and replacing it with "this spot", which is so much different and more specific. I am perfectly aware you're not trying to kick Islam out of all of New York. It's just that one spot and every future spot within a defined radius around Ground Zero, not all of New York.

And of course yes it was Islam that did kill people, remember some of their biggest gripes were that we we're not a Muslim Country, that we did not treat our women in such a horrible way as Islamic Law dictates, and that we had troops in Mecca. All of those are religious gripes, all of them are defined in Islam.

Oh really? You don't think it was in retaliation to our military invention in their matters, which makes a heck of a lot more sense? What were our troops doing in Mecca?
 
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BigLutz

Banned
Thank you for assuming by "here" I meant allll of New York, and replacing it with "this spot", which is so much different and more specific. I am perfectly aware you're not trying to kick Islam out of all of New York. It's just that one spot and every future spot within a defined radius around Ground Zero, not all of New York.

Yes but as I have said many times before there are spots that contain very sensitive emotions for many people. I used the example once before of a WBC member slaughtering thousands of a Gay Pride parade, and in turn a Baptist church trying to put up a church just down the street from the site. Some times sensitivities must be respected.

Oh really? You don't think it was in retaliation to our military invention in their matters, which makes a heck of a lot more sense?

And what military intervention would that be in the 90s? The only one I can think of that we had on Muslim land was fighting back against Iraq during the first Gulf War, and the only reason Osama Bin Laden was ****** about that was because Saudi Arabia, choose us to protect them and not Osama Bin Laden's Rag Tag group of Muslim Fighters. The reason he didn't want America protecting Saudi Arabia was that it would amount to Infidel fighters in Mecca, something that is against Islam.
 

Fused

Shun the nonbeliever
Both of those are not entirely true, the protest is overwhelmingly of "Your Religion is not welcome at this spot" the idea that it would not be welcome anywhere in New York or in the U.S. is wrong.

Tell that to Tennessee.

remember some of their biggest gripes were that we we're not a Muslim Country, that we did not treat our women in such a horrible way as Islamic Law dictates, and that we had troops in Mecca. All of those are religious gripes, all of them are defined in Islam.

And you're right, that is why they attacked us: because we let people believe what they wanted to, because we let people do and say and build what was lawful. I know you may dislike the legal angle in this argument, but the pressure from these protests sorta undoes and yet upholds what the terrorists dislike about us: our freedoms. That's why this mosque will either be a victory flag to al-Qaeda or affirm their wild beliefs that Muslims and the Western world cannot co-exist. It's a tricky issue, and the provocation the mosque causes or all the fear-mongering against the mosque may lead to cabbies get shanked. Although, I don't really see how it would be a victory flag seeing as how non-Muslims are not being forced to convert or shoot some hoops.

Okay, now I'm done here. I need to stop coming back.
 

Tyrant Tar

Well-Known Member
The attendance is one thing, there is a mosque further down the street and there is absolutely no evidence that there needs to be another for attendance.

Going by the other mosque's (Masjid Manhattan) official site, they can only accommodate 20% of their attendants during a service (the other 80% has to pray outside). This raises an interesting question; would it be acceptable for Masjid Manhattan to build a larger mosque or relocate to a larger building within the general area?
 

nikohesus

Banned
Guys, what are you trying to prove with your posts? That Islam is evil in any way? And the mosque still isn't insensitive unless one is still blinded by the lie that muslims were responsible for 9/11, when in fact it was the terrorists' faults. It is NOT a victory flag from al-Qaeda, people need to stop saying that! Already hate crimes are happening, and I'm pretty worried. I'm twelve years old, I'm supposed to be worried that people might take the law into their own hands.
 
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ShinySandshrew

†God Follower†
And the mosque still isn't insensitive
Yes it is. The builders of this place are saying that this place will promote interfaith relations but when other faiths find it in poor taste to build there, this group essentially thumbs its nose at these people. And shouldn't the builders of this place be most concerned about the feelings of the families of the victims of 9/11? Yet they don't seem to care about them.

unless one is still blinded by the lie that muslims were responsible for 9/11
The terrorists were Islamic terrorists. They carried out this attack in the name of Islam. Do you really want to say that it is a lie that Muslims (NOTE: not all muslims, just that those who carried out the attack were muslims) were responsible for the attack?

It is NOT a victory flag from al-Qaeda, people need to stop saying that!
Actually, it would be a victory flag for Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda want to spread Islam however it can, particularly through violent means. This building is partially a center of Islamic worship and will be going up very close to where they carried out an attack that was meant to scare us into converting to Islam. And the imam might be an Al-Qaeda sympathizer, to boot. How could Al-Qaeda not see this as a victory flag?
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
If you want the truth, BigLutz, I don't think the Gulf War was the right thing to do. We shouldn't take sides in the Middle East, otherwise it leads to culturally insulting things like having military forces in Mecca. Interventionist policies are screwing up our economy by throwing away billions of dollars into the desert for twenty-year wars that are becoming increasingly impossible to win.

One should also ask why Osama's attack came out of the blue so suddenly, twenty years later, but all I know is, sources all over the world, all over the NYC area, even in international prisons, even in the stock market, knew it was coming, the fact that there was going to be an attack on 9/11 was not a carefully kept secret. And there's the irony that 9-11 is the number you call for an emergency, in America...and the fact that it happened on the supposed year of the new Millenium, 01...and they attacked at dawn...

Yes it is. The builders of this place are saying that this place will promote interfaith relations but when other faiths find it in poor taste to build there, this group essentially thumbs its nose at these people. And shouldn't the builders of this place be most concerned about the feelings of the families of the victims of 9/11? Yet they don't seem to care about them.

When I look at these protests, I see people who lost their sons in the Iraq War, but although they claim to speak for the families of the victims of 9/11, I don't see any official representation from these families. Link me to some if I'm wrong, I tried to search. I think the people building the mosque have the property rights and the money and the freedom of religion on their side, and all the protest has is public pressure. So what? There are protests in front of the Planned Parenthood center in my neighborhood and it doesn't close. There was a huge gay rights protest on Washington, probably ten times larger than this protest, that believed it was in bad taste to ban mentioning your sexual orientation in the military, and we're still waiting around for the repeal of DADT.

The terrorists were Islamic terrorists. They carried out this attack in the name of Islam. Do you really want to say that it is a lie that Muslims (NOTE: not all muslims, just that those who carried out the attack were muslims) were responsible for the attack?

Then let me put it this way for you: they don't worship the same Allah as the terrorists do. Just like Hitler doesn't pray to the same Christ as you do. Does it make sense that every religion has good people and bad people, or does this escape you too?

Actually, it would be a victory flag for Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda want to spread Islam however it can, particularly through violent means. This building is partially a center of Islamic worship and will be going up very close to where they carried out an attack that was meant to scare us into converting to Islam.

Al-Qaeda, I'm pretty sure, does not just exist to spread Islam, I'm pretty sure it exists to spread political dominance as well, and one mosque for maybe 300 people who are already Muslims doesn't expand political dominance in the U.S., nor does it really make the Muslim religion anymore influential! And before you incriminate Islam for wanting to spread itself, any religion exists to spread itself, you should know this, you're a Christian and you want to spread the love, don't you? Islam will not be allowed to spread itself through the U.S. via violent means; Islamic-Americans know that the average American demographic isn't turned on by violence or death of their loved ones, and plus, since 9/11 we've been more paranoid about security than ever, who says they'll be able to get away with anything if they tried? No, when American Muslims want to spread Islam through America, they'll know, like any other person with a functioning brain, that a door-to-door campaign, a smile, and a pamphlet explaining that they thoroughly condemn jihad (like the one I have on my bookshelf) will get them much farther than a terrorist bombing.

And the imam might be an Al-Qaeda sympathizer, to boot. How could Al-Qaeda not see this as a victory flag?

And does it matter whether Al Qaeda sees this as a victory flag? Now we're fighting a war to control what Al Qaeda thinks? Why should we care what they think as long as they're internationally wanted in caves while we have the biggest arsenal in the world ravaging the Middle East ready to send them into the afterlife when they come into view? Think realistically here, not self-consciously!
 
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nikohesus

Banned
Yes it is. The builders of this place are saying that this place will promote interfaith relations but when other faiths find it in poor taste to build there, this group essentially thumbs its nose at these people. And shouldn't the builders of this place be most concerned about the feelings of the families of the victims of 9/11? Yet they don't seem to care about them.

If there were a sign saying "We won" on the center I would agree with this, but I don't.

The terrorists were Islamic terrorists. They carried out this attack in the name of Islam. Do you really want to say that it is a lie that Muslims (NOTE: not all muslims, just that those who carried out the attack were muslims) were responsible for the attack?

Do you want to say that it's the truth that Christians carried out the Holocausts? Do you understand how I feel?

Actually, it would be a victory flag for Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda want to spread Islam however it can, particularly through violent means. This building is partially a center of Islamic worship and will be going up very close to where they carried out an attack that was meant to scare us into converting to Islam. And the imam might be an Al-Qaeda sympathizer, to boot. How could Al-Qaeda not see this as a victory flag?

Al-Qaeda wants to destroy America, not spread Islam. This whole paragraph sounds prejudiced, considering the center is a place of worship. The Imam wants to put it near Ground Zero to start this whole situation, I don't like it either.

Comments in bold. Don't worry, I hid the bombs in my Wii.
 

BigLutz

Banned

So a handful of ignorant red necks suddenly is a blanket statement for the entire country?

And you're right, that is why they attacked us: because we let people believe what they wanted to, because we let people do and say and build what was lawful. I know you may dislike the legal angle in this argument, but the pressure from these protests sorta undoes and yet upholds what the terrorists dislike about us: our freedoms. That's why this mosque will either be a victory flag to al-Qaeda or affirm their wild beliefs that Muslims and the Western world cannot co-exist.

So lets uphold our own sensitivities, and give the finger to al Qaeda?


Yeah... except the man was

A: Drunk
B: A Liberal
C: SUPPORTIVE OF THE MOSQUE

nikohesus said:
Guys, what are you trying to prove with your posts? That Islam is evil in any way? And the mosque still isn't insensitive unless one is still blinded by the lie that muslims were responsible for 9/11, when in fact it was the terrorists' faults.

We have already been through this, do you have a reading or comprehension problem? It is Islam's fault, again no one would have had a problem if it were a bunch of Muslim's building a bakery.

nikohesus said:
It is NOT a victory flag from al-Qaeda, people need to stop saying that!

Yeah it pretty much is, hell even Muslims see it as that

nikohesus said:
Already hate crimes are happening, and I'm pretty worried. I'm twelve years old, I'm supposed to be worried that people might take the law into their own hands.

The guy was drunk, and supportive of the Mosque, don't blow this out of proportions.

nikohesus said:
If there were a sign saying "We won" on the center I would agree with this, but I don't.

The Mosque itself is a "We Won" victory sign for them, their goal is to spread Islam, and having a Mosque in and of itself next to Islam's greatest attack, especially made by a guy who is a al Qaeda apologist is essentially a victory dance.

nikohesus said:
Do you want to say that it's the truth that Christians carried out the Holocausts? Do you understand how I feel?

Holocaust was not religiously motivated anywhere close to the scale these attacks were.

nikohesus said:
Al-Qaeda wants to destroy America, not spread Islam. This whole paragraph sounds prejudiced, considering the center is a place of worship. The Imam wants to put it near Ground Zero to start this whole situation, I don't like it either.

Al Qaeda has repeatedly said they wish to spread Islam across the world, which is why Bin Laden offered us a truce if we were to convert to Islam.

SunnyC said:
If you want the truth, BigLutz, I don't think the Gulf War was the right thing to do.

So a nation violates the UN and goes to war with a peaceful country, the UN goes in to defend that country, and we stay back? Not only would that cost more lives, but it would have a real possibility that Kuwait would be under the control of a mad man who is known to slaughter hundreds of thousands.

SunnyC said:
We shouldn't take sides in the Middle East, otherwise it leads to culturally insulting things like having military forces in Mecca.

So our ally, who is fearing and rightfully so, that Saddam would turn his attention toward them next, asks for our help and we say what "**** off?" How freaking cold man.

SunnyC said:
Interventionist policies are screwing up our economy by throwing away billions of dollars into the desert for twenty-year wars that are becoming increasingly impossible to win.

Psst the Gulf War or Operation Desert Storm was between August 2, 1990 – February 28, 1991

SunnyC said:
One should also ask why Osama's attack came out of the blue so suddenly, twenty years later, but all I know is, sources all over the world, all over the NYC area, even in international prisons, even in the stock market, knew it was coming, the fact that there was going to be an attack on 9/11 was not a carefully kept secret. And there's the irony that 9-11 is the number you call for an emergency, in America...and the fact that it happened on the supposed year of the new Millenium, 01...and they attacked at dawn...

Okay first you are coming dangerously close to being labeled a ****ing nut as you are straying into the areas of 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Second, his attack did not come out of the blue, Osama Bin Laden had been at war with us since 1993. The Kobar Towers, the Saudi Arabia bombings, the Day of Destruction, the Embassy Bombings, the New Year Eve attempt, the USS Cole, all of these were Osama Bin Laden attacks or attempts.

Learn some history

SunnyC said:
When I look at these protests, I see people who lost their sons in the Iraq War, but although they claim to speak for the families of the victims of 9/11, I don't see any official representation from these families. Link me to some if I'm wrong, I tried to search

Proven Wrong Again

SunnyC said:
think the people building the mosque have the property rights and the money and the freedom of religion on their side, and all the protest has is public pressure. So what? There are protests in front of the Planned Parenthood center in my neighborhood and it doesn't close. There was a huge gay rights protest on Washington, probably ten times larger than this protest, that believed it was in bad taste to ban mentioning your sexual orientation in the military, and we're still waiting around for the repeal of DADT.

Yeah tell me when those issues reach 72% against across America, and THEN you can make the comparison.

SunnyC said:
Then let me put it this way for you: they don't worship the same Allah as the terrorists do. Just like Hitler doesn't pray to the same Christ as you do. Does it make sense that every religion has good people and bad people, or does this escape you too?

Really? Did Allah justify and give permission to Mohammad's bloody and deadly attacks across the Middle East? Those same justifications used today by terrorists?

SunnyC said:
And does it matter whether Al Qaeda sees this as a victory flag? Now we're fighting a war to control what Al Qaeda thinks? Why should we care what they think as long as they're internationally wanted in caves while we have the biggest arsenal in the world ravaging the Middle East ready to send them into the afterlife when they come into view? Think realistically here, not self-consciously!

Of course it matters, we are at war with them, they killed thousands, the last thing we need to give them is a morale boost and psychological victory that this provides.
 

nikohesus

Banned
For the last time, although Islam motivated the terrorists, it itself as well as the millions of people who follow it do not believe in terrorism.
 

nikohesus

Banned
For the last time, although Islam motivated the terrorists, it itself as well as the millions of people who follow it do not believe in terrorism.

Also there were multiple hate crimes, not the one you mentioned.
 

BigLutz

Banned
For the last time, although Islam motivated the terrorists, it itself as well as the millions of people who follow it do not believe in terrorism.

That is true, but it still does not change the fact that it was a islamic attack, and that is what makes it insensitive.

Also there were multiple hate crimes, not the one you mentioned.

Name one connected directly to the Mosque.
 

nikohesus

Banned
That is true, but it still does not change the fact that it was a islamic attack, and that is what makes it insensitive.

You forgot to capitalize Islamic. :)

Name one connected directly to the Mosque.

I've read numerous online newspapers and listened to the news, but as a teenager I'd rather play video games than remember something I'd be afraid of. If you wish you can search for them.

Comments in bold.
 

BigLutz

Banned
replace rednecks with extremists and country with religion and that's basically your argument.

Difference is that we are not trying to set up a temple for that religion right now where those extremists attacked are we?

nikohesus said:
I've read numerous online newspapers and listened to the news, but as a teenager I'd rather play video games than remember something I'd be afraid of. If you wish you can search for them.

Actually you were the one that brought it up, thus the burden of proof is on your shoulders.
 
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