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Guzma The Undefeated! (1080)

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
but it still is one of the worst battles in the League so far. So much build up for nothing...
Did you miss the part where the ferocity, passion, and earnestness of the battle helped Guzma and Golisopod push past their tendency to run away and instead stuck through the entire battle?

Or how it inspired the deadbeat gang to actually try something for once?
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Did you miss the part where the ferocity, passion, and earnestness of the battle helped Guzma and Golisopod push past their tendency to run away and instead stuck through the entire battle?

Or how it inspired the deadbeat gang to actually try something for once?
No, i just don't think it was done well, structure wise. If they had divided these moments of introspection between episodes instead of wasting screentime on Bewear relaxing in a hot spring, TR selling donuts and useless chitchat between the classmates in the first episode, maybe it would have been better. But instead they decided to put all of these flashbacks, monologues and stares into a single episode and it just interrupted the battle way more than it needed.

A lot of these moments lasted longer than necessary and repeated the same point over and over again.

Did Guzma have development in this episode? Yes, although i have my criticism on how it was done.
Was the battle actually good? Personally, i think it was one of the worst for the reasons i already mentioned above.
 
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British Soul

Top Hat Regulator
Unless it's something obvious, no, because the idea is no summary, no preview mention, but I guess if it's staring in your face, sure.
Something obvious like, the question about Graveler with three of the options being Hikers? That I will admit is one of the weirder PokeProblems, if it can really be considered one.

What I mean is some of the Poke problems have been (at least similar maybe not exact):
Where does the setting of this episode take place?
Who visits Ash at Kukui's house?
What happens to such and such.

And at least for the first example, that COULD easily be answered in the first few seconds "Our heroes journey to Ula'Ula island"

Oh, okay that was one of the options, well Poke problem solved.

But this one is especially weird because the answer was revealed the previous episode, so it creates a weird logic issue, where you are like "Wait, are they doing the finals in this episode, starting, anyway, is that why you are asking?" only to watch the episode and then you're like "Oh no it was what I thought to begin with, great, thank you, we already knew who it was."

I'm sure the Poke problems are most definitely for kids, but honestly I don't know why they chose one that make it seem like children have amnesia of the previous episode.

Just think maybe a more relevant question to the episode rather than connected directly from the previous episode, is what the Poke problems should be about. But whatever just found it strange, they asked a question you already know from watching the previous episode.
There's no doubt that the PokeProblem segment is for kids, given the general tone of the series (and timeslot it's occupying). And on a slightly unrelated note, I have never had a problem with the segment at the end where they talk about a featured Pokémon or place after the answer is revealed as it gives said kids the opportunity to learn about them. Though there has certainly been a mix of questions that can be answered in a few seconds (like Guzzlord part 2 or the first Malie City episode) or within the first minute and those whose answers are later on in the episode.

Going back to the point about the question in this episode, yeah the question gave no concrete context as to what battle it was asking about. It certainly made one think "Wait there are two fights today?" only for it to be "Oh, so are they testing kids' memory skills now?" But yeah it was odd for the answer to be connected to the previous episode.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
Sigh the one time I want the dream crusher to win... it looks like Ash will.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
I wasn't expecting anything noteworthy as far as the actual battle between Satoshi versus Guzma was concerned since I knew that Satoshi would win, so I was only really looking forward to the match's aftermath just to see how Guzma would react. He took his loss better than I expected to the point where it was almost out of character, but I liked how his henchmen cheered for him, and the Meltan swarm at the end was rather startling since there's more of them than I expected.
 

AuraGuardian448

Aura Guardian
Sigh, time to critique Pkachu's performance again. I haven't really been mentioning it so far also, but I find it immensely baffling how much stock backgrounds are used, especially for this particular series. It's so ironic. It's not even like the animation quality is high enough to warrant it or let it slide. Anyway...

Satoshi vs Gumza Part 2. This fight pisses me off, primarily, because of how Pikachu and Gusokumusha were portrayed and some ideas here should have been used when Satoshi fought Alan, from the music that plays to Satoshi's strong will to not give up, even though it's not the actual finals match, which in turn doesn't matter. But first, Nyaheat; it actually lost fairly, considering the extra poison status effect. Pikachu vs Gusokumusha on the other hand, wow is this fight bad, and I just mean in terms of power-scaling. Starting from Pikachu's pathetic "*****-ass" (lack of term) reaction from getting hit from Throat Chop. No other Pokemon, including ones clearly weaker than Pikachu reacted in such a way (even when hit by it more than once in a single battle, again like Nyaheat and Ashirene), making Pikachu look weak and not ace caliber. Then Guso, in its weakened as hell state, somehow deflected a thunderbolt (this I can actually accept), took a direct Thunderbolt to the chest from nearly a fully healed Pikachu and kept going, and proceeded to block a S.Gigavolt (from Satoshi's Pikachu), the same move that Tapu Ko Ko (who was never even remotely as weakened as Guso was) always made sure to block before and usually sent it flying after getting hit by it. (The point being how Guso has so much stamina and endurance at this point.) So yeah, from here Pikachu is already panting, all from being hit by ONE attack and using a few regular one of its own. The panting may not last all that long, but the fact it happened and the aftermath of the battle had Pikachu pass out (indefinitely, unlike what has been seen in some other instances after intense battles), upsets me. Final blow being a horizontal Iron tail vs Liquidation non-struggle clash that has the former winning was poorly done, even if Gusk was possibly in a weaker state. If this was XY when they portrayed Pikachu's Iron tail as being on this really high level it's never been on before I'd have actually accepted it, but it has not been treated that way this S&M series, and it's never been shown or used to destroy Z-Moves unlike Liquiadation has. If Satoshi supported it again with QA beforehand (or used it while falling like he did back on Korrina's Lucario, Zakuro's Tyrunt, Sho's Raichu, or any other similar instance) to make it more powerful, I'd be fine with that. Lastly, the fact that Pikachu almost lost, when it had type advantage, full health, a very weakened opponent, and wasn't poisoned a single bit, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It could have been a challenging fight for Pikachu without it nearly losing in the process.

Guzma's/Gusk's development was predictable to me, but it's fairly surprising that it didn't take center stage and serve to to be used to defeat Satoshi, for like once, even though I have figured that the likelihood of Satoshi winning was still higher than Guzma doing so, personally (especially since Satoshi vs Gladio just has to happen, along with Satoshi vs Royal Mask). It's baffling, though, because Satoshi's development this series hasn't been as engaging and indepth as its been in some of the past series.

No usage of any of Guzma's themes from the games was really wack, also.

Whelp, saw Satoshi's mom (and Oak) in the previews, so looks like she will be here after all. Good, because I expected her to be at this particular league considering her frequent Alola visits. Meh, that's about all I want to say, considering I need to see the other episodes. (Once again, though... Melmetal hype!)
 
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lolipiece

Pictured: what browsing Serebii does to a person
Staff member
Moderator
Watched the dub to see if they got Guzma's catchphrase right, and to my disappointment (but not surprise), they didn't.

"What are you doing, Guzma?!" vs the game's "Guzma! What is wrong with you?!" Same meaning, but still technically wrong.

I want to say it's a lip-flap issue, but I'm not sure.
 

Lord Starfish

Fond of owls
Watched the dub to see if they got Guzma's catchphrase right, and to my disappointment (but not surprise), they didn't.

"What are you doing, Guzma?!" vs the game's "Guzma! What is wrong with you?!" Same meaning, but still technically wrong.

I want to say it's a lip-flap issue, but I'm not sure.
To be fair, the phrasing in Japanese didn't actually match up 100% either. It was close enough that I feel it was likely to have been a deliberate reference, but it wasn't exactly the same. Specifically, what he said in the anime was "nani yatte'n da Guzma!!" whereas the game quote was "Guzma!! nani yatterun da!!"
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Do the rules of this league prohibit switching out (except via moves and abilities?)? If not, why did Ash not switch out Torracat early in this episode, even before the poisoning tbh, but especially after the poisoning. Previous generations' Ash would have definitely done this. I guess it is possible that no switching is in the rules though, hence why everyone was so impressed with Scizor's U-Turn strategy in the last episode. In the games, obviously the advantage of U-Turn is being able to do damage and switch out your Pokémon on the same turn, instead of wasting a turn switching out with no damage dealt. However, in the anime, which doesn't follow turn-based battling, I'm not sure what the advantage of U-Turn would be. Especially considering that this was U-Turn's anime debut, my only thought is: the rules of this league prohibit switching and hence that was the advantage of U-Turn, to switch using a loophole in the rules. That would also explain why Ash didn't switch out Torracat. Either I missed the explanation of that rule near the beginning of this league, or it wasn't dubbed properly, or, it was never explained and we're just left to assume those are the rules of this league for some reason.

and timeslot it's occupying

Doesn't it air Sunday nights at 6? And before that Thursday nights at 7? In the US, especially on a channel like TV Tokyo (which I assume is similar to national channels like ABC and NBC in the US, since you're British I'll say similar to BBC as well) which airs programming for all ages, rather than a children-specific programming only, these timeslots would usually be showing programming for all ages, not just children specifically. Sunday night at 6 might be a time the whole family sits in front of the TV together?

I'm not denying that Pokémon is a children's show, but I don't think the timeslot is evidence of that at all.
 

British Soul

Top Hat Regulator
Doesn't it air Sunday nights at 6? And before that Thursday nights at 7? In the US, especially on a channel like TV Tokyo (which I assume is similar to national channels like ABC and NBC in the US, since you're British I'll say similar to BBC as well) which airs programming for all ages, rather than a children-specific programming only, these timeslots would usually be showing programming for all ages, not just children specifically. Sunday night at 6 might be a time the whole family sits in front of the TV together?

I'm not denying that Pokémon is a children's show, but I don't think the timeslot is evidence of that at all.
It is competing with family orientated shows like Chibimarukochan and Sazae-san which airs in the 6-7pm timeslot on FujiTV, which is why people referred to it as the deathslot in the first place.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
It is competing with family orientated shows like Chibimarukochan and Sazae-san which airs in the 6-7pm timeslot on FujiTV, which is why people referred to it as the deathslot in the first place.
so i guess "family" = "children's show" in this definition? if so that's fine I'm just trying to understand
 

Lord Starfish

Fond of owls
So out of curiosity I checked how the dub handled this climax...

I think this is the most unambiguous case ever of them very plainly just ignoring the creators' intent entirely. Say what you will about the song played over the final stretch originally. Whether you like or dislike the fact that they had a mellow children's choir backing an intense back-and-forth between two fighters desperate to win... There's like a zero percent chance that this tone was in any way not intentional. The episode director clearly wanted the soundtrack dissonance there, probably to reflect Guzma's change of heart, I imagine. It certainly made the scene stand out amongst other climactic showdowns. I can't off the top of my head think of any other fight against a major antagonist that was handled like this.

...So of course the dub goes and scores the scene with standard actiony music. I would say I'm disappointed... But no, this was exactly what I expected them to do. Which you could very easily argue also makes my complaining about it sort of akin to
354062.jpg

but let me yell at clouds every now and then, dang it. I am entirely too fond of this scene to not be bothered by the dub taking away the most memorable thing about it, even if it was exactly what I thought they would do.
 
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