Guzma The Undefeated! (1080)

[Doppelgänger]

Another detail is why Plumeria follows him. It was hinted at in the previous episode that she was covering for his lies with the grunts, but it wasn't clear why. Didn't she only follow him because he was strong? If she knew the truth, why is she still there?

Well it was very clear here that she is in love with him and that's why she was following him so faithfully.

Since the games I've always felt like Plumeria was secretly a Nurse Joy. That moment felt like the Nurse Joy was shining through her mascara.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

I'm really upset with Ash's win over Guzma today. Given Guzma strong backstory with Kukui and the repeated references made to it throughout this episode, especially to his previous losses to Kukui, I always got the feeling it made more sense for Guzma to win here. One of the very few times in the Pokemon anime where I felt that Ash was kind of the undeserving winner and it made more sense for his opponent to win.

How does it make much sense for Guzma to not win the League and battle Kukui afterwards, especially considering the whole backstory he had with Kukui and Hala?

For the sake of Ash vs Gladion happening in the League? Yeah, they could've gone the Gladion vs Ash and Kiawe vs Guzma route in the semifinals too for that sake and have Ash vs Guzma in the finals with Guzma winning.....and then afterwards facing Kukui for a "rematch$ where Kukui beating him and showing him the right way would make sense.

Now that Guzma has lost to Ash, the only way this now makes some sense is that:

Ash beats Gladion in the finals, wins the Alola League and facing Kukui afterwards, with Torracat vs Incineroar happening, where Torracat potentially evolves into Incineroar and the rivalry between Torracat and Incineroar is given a proper closure.

Gladion winning the League wouldn't make any sense considering he doesn't have any sort of backstory/rivalry with Kukui.

There was a 0% chance they were ever going to let the evil team leader win against Ash and Gladion just so he could battle Kukui in disguise. It'd be funny if Kukui's identity got revealed during the exhibition match and Guzma came running back to fight him.

 

[Bortgreen]

It was meant to be a emotional and touching moment for Guzma, hence why they played Notebook of the Heart during it.

Type: Wild only works when the sequence is supposed to be exciting, besides it's more fitting for when the focus is on Satoshi.

Better get ready to hear it again in the farewell episodes then

------------
Ok battle but all the flashbacks are only going to make sense in the sub.
I also expected Pikachu's "injury" had more of an impact, considering how much Lillie and Togedemaru were shocked to see it, not to mention Pikachu's own reaction

 

[dman_dustin]

Really, the writers hates Ash's Torracat. Torracat can't get a win without needing help or it feeling cheep. If Torracat can't beat Golisopod then Incineroar well just beat him like the last time they fought. Golisopod has enough strenght to survive a Giga Volt Havoc and keep on going. I think Ash's Torracat is the least impressive fire type since Torkoal and I think Torkoal has been in and won more battle then Torracat did

Did you forget that Torracat defeated a Scizor in one hit, the same Scizor that defeated Ilmia's Mega Kangaskhan.

I'm really upset with Ash's win over Guzma today. Given Guzma strong backstory with Kukui and the repeated references made to it throughout this episode, especially to his previous losses to Kukui, I always got the feeling it made more sense for Guzma to win here. One of the very few times in the Pokemon anime where I felt that Ash was kind of the undeserving winner and it made more sense for his opponent to win.

Not really since they decided to shove his backstory in the middle of a generation where it made sense for Ash to be the main one who was being focused on.

How does it make much sense for Guzma to not win the League and battle Kukui afterwards, especially considering the whole backstory he had with Kukui and Hala?

Because that wasn't the point. Especially given that everything with Ash happened BEFORE Guzma. The story is you don't always get what you want. There are many people who had aspirations, you don't always get to have those aspirations to be resolved the way you want them to.

Guzma had his issues primarily resolved by being defeated by Ash because of what happened in the battle (presumably), there's nothing Masked Royal that would've done differently.

For the sake of Ash vs Gladion happening in the League? Yeah, they could've gone the Gladion vs Ash and Kiawe vs Guzma route in the semifinals too for that sake and have Ash vs Guzma in the finals with Guzma winning.....and then afterwards facing Kukui for a "rematch$ where Kukui beating him and showing him the right way would make sense.

I'll give you Ash vs Guzma in the finals, much more understandable. However just because Guzma had beef with Kukui doesn't he deserved to win and go on and battle Masked Royal, especially since its doubtful Guzma even KNOWS that Masked Royal is Kukui in disguise.

Which mean as far as GUZMA is concerned personally he has no interest in Masked Royal. Unlike say all the other characters who at least SPECIFICALLY wanted to battle Masked Royal (except Gladion).

What purpose does it serve for Guzma to win, only to lose to Masked Royal, especially when Guzma isn't aware that Kukui is Masked Royal.

The only reason Guzma winning made any sense was because Kukui is Masked Royal, HOWEVER if Guzma doesn't know this, then his only point to being in the league is destroy it because he's the superior trainer.

Now that Guzma has lost to Ash, the only way this now makes some sense is that:

Ash beats Gladion in the finals, wins the Alola League and facing Kukui afterwards, with Torracat vs Incineroar happening, where Torracat potentially evolves into Incineroar and the rivalry between Torracat and Incineroar is given a proper closure.

Gladion winning the League wouldn't make any sense considering he doesn't have any sort of backstory/rivalry with Kukui.

Ash has made promises before that he was unable to keep, you can hope for the best but that doesn't mean it'll work out. There's always someone better than you.

The final issue with Guzma winning is this: Guzma was throwing a temper tantrum, or just being a complete and utter jerk about the league in general. Why any person who wants to destroy the league would deserve to win the league is beyond me. If Guzma had proper battle aspirations, maybe he could've been a winner.

But Ash deserved this because he's the only one who put true focus into training and getting where he is. Ash likes to battle, Ash understands battling, and even if this is serious, Ash still battles for fun. Ash personifies what Pokemon battling should be about. Guzma doesn't. So why should he get far for doing things for the wrong reasons? Why reward a character like that?

Edit: Can I mention how stupid the Poke problem is in this episode? We already know who the referee is since this is a continuation for the LAST battle. Like couldn't have been something you could only know by watching THIS episode. How many times has the Poke problem done this?

 

[DuquÊ?]

I'm really upset with Ash's win over Guzma today. Given Guzma strong backstory with Kukui and the repeated references made to it throughout this episode, especially to his previous losses to Kukui, I always got the feeling it made more sense for Guzma to win here. One of the very few times in the Pokemon anime where I felt that Ash was kind of the undeserving winner and it made more sense for his opponent to win.

That was a freaking weird episode. Everything made it look like Guzma was the protagonist and Ash was the dream crusher. Pallet Boy was basically there while Guzma had his whole development while the battle goes on and...find his resolution by himself, after golisopod tanked GH as a boss and was struggling to not Emergency Exit away.

Seriously, if the idea was sell Guzma as more sympathetic... it worked spetacularly, I'm his fan (I already was, but I'm more now). This battle sure looks better than the previous ones now. Plumeria serving as inner voice to Guzma's story was touching. It's her view about the good he actually did to the Team Skull, even if Guzma himself didn't notice.

How does it make much sense for Guzma to not win the League and battle Kukui afterwards, especially considering the whole backstory he had with Kukui and Hala?

For the sake of Ash vs Gladion happening in the League? Yeah, they could've gone the Gladion vs Ash and Kiawe vs Guzma route in the semifinals too for that sake and have Ash vs Guzma in the finals with Guzma winning.....and then afterwards facing Kukui for a "rematch where Kukui beating him and showing him the right way would make sense.

Please, don't remember me, this league would be much more interesting if Guzma was the final opponent/champion. I'm damn disappointed he wasn't introduced WAY back than his actual debut episode.

Another detail is why Plumeria follows him. It was hinted at in the previous episode that she was covering for his lies with the grunts, but it wasn't clear why. Didn't she only follow him because he was strong? If she knew the truth, why is she still there?

Well it was very clear here that she is in love with him and that's why she was following him so faithfully.

Pretty sure that's the reason. Games doesn't make it clear because of Guzma's thing with Lusamine (by the way, one of the scenes strangely showed Lusamine while focusing on Guzma. What a time for a call back).

Since the games I've always felt like Plumeria was secretly a Nurse Joy. That moment felt like the Nurse Joy was shining through her mascara.

Funny. She was showed without her make up in the poke problem post segment. Nothing as a Joy, though.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

Imagine how dangerous Team Skull would have been if Guzma behaved the way he did at the end of the fight, at that point they'd have to establish an elite 4 to keep order of someone's bound to get killed.

Easily the strongest competitor besides the finalists by a landslide.

 

[p96822]

Did you forget that Torracat defeated a Scizor in one hit, the same Scizor that defeated Ilmia's Mega Kangaskhan.

I don't count that because of Golisopod's Emergency Escape. Plus Scizor only won because not because he powerful, it's because how Guzma used Scizor in the battle

 

[_AISP]

What was Guzma drinking?

 

[AznKei]

What was Guzma drinking?

Sapporo or Asahi beers.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Finally, a battle with depth, emotion, and stakes

Why does Guzma get this much love and passion put into his episodes whereas the main characters get next to nothing?

I'm glad they made Guzma the protagonist of his battles against Lana and Ash, letting you get into his head and seeing his insecurities instead of making him some mere obstacle to overcome

Also, why doesn't the thread use the proper episode title?

Guzma the Undefeated Emperor!

Don't try to weasel out of Guzma’s characterization

And after three agonizing years, we finally got to hear Guzma say The Thing

 

[Aaronrules380]

I mean on the one hand, Guzma was clearly the stronger trainer here and Ash only won because he got lucky with Golosipod retreating at the literal worst possible moment for Guzma leading to a OHKO on Scizor, but on the other hand I think that's kind of the point: Guzma is a ridiculously strong trainer but both he and his Pokemon are held back largely by their own hang ups leading to unforced errors

 

[mehmeh1]

I mean on the one hand, Guzma was clearly the stronger trainer here and Ash only won because he got lucky with Golosipod retreating at the literal worst possible moment for Guzma leading to a OHKO on Scizor, but on the other hand I think that's kind of the point: Guzma is a ridiculously strong trainer but both he and his Pokemon are held back largely by their own hang ups leading to unforced errors

Also, Guzma/Golisopod kinda needed that pressure to push them to their maximum strength

 

[DatsRight]

Seen the subs and holy crap he finally said it!

I love how Guzma's long awaited catchphrase was actually his epiphany moment here.

Concerning Guzma winning the battle, that would have made no sense. The entire point of this battle was Guzma accepting he had to lose sometimes and to not run from a challenge he may not win. Having Ash of all people be the 'dream smasher' only furthers the effectiveness, Ash is a guy who can take roadblocks and losses on the chin and bounce back. Hell SM in and of itself almost feels like an embracing of failure and fallibility and how not being an instant pro isn't the end of the world.

I admit it might have worked better as a final match, but then again it was VERY story revolved, they likely want the final battle to be more fully fledged.

 

[AznKei]

Watched the episode, it's actually half a battle but most of the episode is about Guzma's backstory.

I see that Guzma was upset that Kukui defeated him during his past and thought that every "civilized" people were disrespected him, until he got surprised when Ash remarked how strong and resilient his Golisopod is after taking a Z-move despite being battered, so at the end despite him losing he gained the respect for being a strong trainer.

Now, I wondered if Team Skull are still going to harass civilized people despite the Guzma's respect, because after all their members were having rough lives. But I doubt the show would go deeper into social issues.

Also, Guzma did the Super Mario jump at the end, and Lillie sure covered her face when Pikachu was rolling in pain, like something gory is about to happen. Overall, it's an interesting episode.

 

[p96822]

I don't agree with this. It's true that Scizor managed to land his hits using strategy, but he crippled the Kangaskhan after only two blows. By comparison Scizor took like...five hits? And the Mega Kangaskhan had been boosted to +3 from the Power-Up Punches.

Scizor had also beaten a Kommo-o during the Battle Royale. I know at the time we thought the Mega Kangaskhan was much stronger, but we might need to reevaluate that now.

The Gigavolt Havoc Golisopod tanked in this episode was the same one that KO'd Misty's Mega Gyarados. It's in a different tier of power from the Corkscrew Crash it shrugged off in the first Ash-Guzma battle. I can't look at both of these feats and think that Scizor was so much weaker.

I still don't count this because it was more of Golisopod abilty that gave Torracat the win and not Torracat battle and KO Scizor in a full battle. Who really care about those previous battles with Scizor. It not like in those battle that it being drag out from a move that it's not good against. Also plus Pikachu didn't KO'd Gyarados he two shot it wit an Iron Tail then later a Giga Volt Havoc. It might say that Golisopod is far more defensive then Misty's Mega Gyarados was.

 

[mysticalglacia]

I loved this episode. Definitely the best (and only) character driven episode of this League so far. Putting Guzma in this pseudo-protagonist position was a good decision; it let us get inside his head and unearth his thought process, and that gave us a very interesting narrative to follow. At first, I was wary about how they were going to approach his “redemption”, and while I do wish it had gone differently, the way Guzma gained back his determination and drive felt very natural and well-written. A lot of passion was put into the writing here, and I think it payed off.

The battle was good. Golisopod alone might actually be stronger than Tobias; Guzma is one of the strongest trainers we’ve had in the anime the past few sagas tbh. Plumeria is a sweet character, her relationship with Guzma is nice to see and the shots of her worrying during the battle added to the tension. I actually liked a lot of the shots this episode- the Plumeria flashback scene and montage of every moment/battle Guzma was in were cool to look at and served their purpose.

But most importantly...he said the thing. It took three years, but it happened! As people pointed out, I loved how it was his moment of catharsis. Very clever, Omode.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Now I get to see it again.

He wiped away the tears before we got to see them.

 

[Almighty Zard]

The battle was good. Golisopod alone might actually be stronger than Tobias; Guzma is one of the strongest trainers we’ve had in the anime the past few sagas tbh.

To compare Guzma to Tobias is abit overkill imo, since it took three pokemon to take Darkrai down (heracross and gible both scored hits and Sceptile finished it), and Pikachu barely tied with Latios who didn't take any damage at all before they fought.

not denying that Golisipod is indeed a strong pokemon, but it only took two pokemon to defeat it as apposed to the above mentioned three for darkrai

 

[Aaronrules380]

To compare Guzma to Tobias is abit overkill imo, since it took three pokemon to take Darkrai down (heracross and gible both scored hits and Sceptile finished it), and Pikachu barely tied with Latios who didn't take any damage at all before they fought.

not denying that Golisipod is indeed a strong pokemon, but it only took two pokemon to defeat it as apposed to the above mentioned three for darkrai

I mean I agree it's overkill, but it is worth pointing out that Darkrai was actively healing itself with dream eater throughout that match, so it's not necessarily clear how much of the damage it had taken stuck before it was taken down

 

[Ambyssin]

He said the thing! He said the thing! :V

It's also with this episode that I realize that, for all the contrasts people are drawing to the Kalos League, I find that both of these leagues are sharing a similar theme of "everything's happening around Ash." All the characterization and arc bits are coming from the other classmates and league competitors... much like the early rounds of the Kalos League were dedicated toward Alain and Sawyer and, even then, their matches with Ash had us going inside their heads more than Ash's. The exception to that is Ash's Rowlet, but I know how much of a hot button that is, so I won't say anything.

I guess it is gonna be kinda weird that this is the league Ash winds up winning. Ah well. XD