Gym Battle! Z-Move VS Mega Evolution!! (986)

[Champion Jared 14]

Well misty is good but she is not that good that some people claimed that she is 8th gym leader caliber. Vut the manned in which pikachi won was surprising. I was expecting a close match but gyarados even in mega wasn;t able to do much and this is not even the strongest version of pikachu that we will see in the ending part of series. Why would misty underestimate him when even she knew that ash always have some tricks and its not like misty herself is any elite trainer.

Who ever said that she was 8th gym leader caliber and WHAT fans overestimated her capabilities? I think you're only referring to one ardent misty fan, but that's not enough to sway me, sorry not sorry.

You seem to be holding on to this antiquated notion that a gym leader's position in the order of battle limits them to a fixed, predetermined level of strength that they cannot surpass by any means. This is patently false. In Kanto, Sabrina's gym comes before Koga's, and the level difference between their teams is NOT significant whatsoever. Going off simple game mechanics, it wouldn't be farfetched to see her defeating him despite her position. Three years in the future, Koga ends up being a member of the elite four, and he wasn't even the last gym leader in his region. But that goes to show how futile relying on that archaic, biased notion is, as I'm sure you'd assume that position should've went to someone like Blaine, or Giovanni etc....so, you may want to consider letting go of that.

You are laboring heavily under this idea that Misty is a weak trainer and somehow deserved this loss. But if the win was easily gained against an opponent who you feel wasn't challenging at all, then what has Ash gained here? I mean seriously, what does this prove?

Characters like Cynthia, Diantha, etc do not count because they are already established as strong characters due to their positions in the games. Next and moving right along...

As far as their trainer history goes, Ash has ALWAYS been portrayed as a better trainer than Misty mainly because he collected gym badges and had a variety of pokemon on his team. Of course girls cant be treated as serious rivals for him and God forbid Ash travels with a girl who also wanted to challege gyms and go to the pokemon league. Oh no, cant have that for it would take too much focus from Ash. So instead, lets give girls like Misty passive goals without tangible markers and stereotypical "girly" traits so they'll have some unique quirks.

Through him, his sisters, and various others, they've all made it clear that Misty and all water types are simple to beat with grass and electric types, and this loss she suffered further highlights my point. In a free-for-all situation, Misty has always been at a disadvantage when battling him, and like I said before, it shows in their history.

The only instance where it was shown where she stood any chance of beating him on a more "even" playing field was when they were in a competition that required them to ONLY use water pokemon. Water pokemon are the most abundant types, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Pokeworld is mostly water as ours is. The problem with that however, is that the whole world isn't an aquatic battlefield, and the anime has already established that more aquatic/non-amphibious water types have a difficult time battling on land outside their environment.

I don't see how Misty will master water pokemon when the show has placed her in a paradigm that makes it nigh impossible to accomplish such a feat. But if you had it your way, you'd probably never want her to be portrayed as a powerful trainer, much less beat Ash in a battle because that would just take too much from the plot-based protagonist armor that shields him. I forgot. In this anime, you're not permitted to be potrayed as an excellent trainer unless you're the main character, or a guy...special characters NOT included of course. Being the main character, Ash will be guaranteed wins further down the line as he has two Kahunas to beat, team skull/Aether, and folks at the Alola League when that rolls around. So, him winning here doesn't mean much to me nor would it have taken anything from him if he lost. But that's why I think a win for Misty would've been more impactful and meaningful here.

 

[hottom3rd]

I liked the outcome of this episode and I have watched this anime since day one. I think showcasing that Mega and Z have almost a level possible playing field is a good thing, as megas became pretty OP in xyz and xy. Pikachu was great, and I do appreciate all the nods and callbacks. 10/10 for me

 

[J. D. Guy]

There would have been riots if these old companions lost to the new ones. Plus, it showed that Brock and Misty don't just sit around in offscreen land and improve themselves and their Pokemon, especially the ones that were comic relief, or just there in the original series. That said, maybe "new over old" has been thrown by the wayside, like so many other conventions have been this series.

Dawn's defeat of May was justified plot wise (Iris' of Dawn much less so), considering Dawn desperately needed the confidence boost, but May definitely won in my mind.

Count me in on the handful of those who are looking forward to watching this episode dubbed.

[spoil]Saying the plot justified Dawn beating May but "much less so" when Iris's Dragonite beat Dawn rather reeks of bias towards Dawn. Iris's Dragonite losing to Dawn and her Mamoswine would have been just as detrimental to the plot of their story as you (rightly) posit that Dawn losing to May would have been for hers. I went out of my way to point this out because I do not appreciate the casualness of how this was mentioned, as if it were a common known fact, albeit one that still needed justification brought to light for one side whilst simultaneously casually dismissing the other in spite of both being equal under the given criteria.[/spoil]

Can we stop calling those Lana, Mallow, Lillie, and Sophocles demonstrations battles, seriously they were over before they even began and weren't even given the opportunity to finish.

That battle doesn't count. Those were just for the experience. Only certain characters are allowed to defy the "type disadvantage" clause and actually win battles. This series really lacks competitive, powerful, female battlers.

It's not really for you guys to say "it didn't count" just because it didn't fit your personal criterias for your respective personal narratives.

As far as the show is concerned, those battles were just as legitimate as the other 2, and that's really all there is to it.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Count me in on the handful of those who are looking forward to watching this episode dubbed.

[spoil]Saying the plot justified Dawn beating May but "much less so" when Iris's Dragonite beat Dawn rather reeks of bias towards Dawn. Iris's Dragonite losing to Dawn and her Mamoswine would have been just as detrimental to the plot of their story as you (rightly) posit that Dawn losing to May would have been for hers. I went out of my way to point this out because I do not appreciate the casualness of how this was mentioned, as if it were a common known fact, albeit one that still needed justification brought to light for one side whilst simultaneously casually dismissing the other in spite of both being equal under the given criteria.[/spoil]





It's not really for you guys to say "it didn't count" just because it didn't fit your personal criterias for your respective personal narratives.

As far as the show is concerned, those battles were just as legitimate as the other 2, and that's really all there is to it.

Spoiler

Dawn "beat" may through working with her Pokémon whereas Dragonite wasn't even listening to Iris when she beat Mamoswine and it was losing to Krookodile that set their development up. Trust me, I'm not particularly inclined to give anyone in DP a pass.

.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Who ever said that she was 8th gym leader caliber and WHAT fans overestimated her capabilities? I think you're only referring to one ardent misty fan, but that's not enough to sway me, sorry not sorry.

You seem to be holding on to this antiquated notion that a gym leader's position in the order of battle limits them to a fixed, predetermined level of strength that they cannot surpass by any means. This is patently false. In Kanto, Sabrina's gym comes before Koga's, and the level difference between their teams is NOT significant whatsoever. Going off simple game mechanics, it wouldn't be farfetched to see her defeating him despite her position. Three years in the future, Koga ends up being a member of the elite four, and he wasn't even the last gym leader in his region. But that goes to show how futile relying on that archaic, biased notion is, as I'm sure you'd assume that position should've went to someone like Blaine, or Giovanni etc....so, you may want to consider letting go of that.

You are laboring heavily under this idea that Misty is a weak trainer and somehow deserved this loss. But if the win was easily gained against an opponent who you feel wasn't challenging at all, then what has Ash gained here? I mean seriously, what does this prove?

Characters like Cynthia, Diantha, etc do not count because they are already established as strong characters due to their positions in the games. Next and moving right along...

As far as their trainer history goes, Ash has ALWAYS been portrayed as a better trainer than Misty mainly because he collected gym badges and had a variety of pokemon on his team. Of course girls cant be treated as serious rivals for him and God forbid Ash travels with a girl who also wanted to challege gyms and go to the pokemon league. Oh no, cant have that for it would take too much focus from Ash. So instead, lets give girls like Misty passive goals without tangible markers and stereotypical "girly" traits so they'll have some unique quirks.

Through him, his sisters, and various others, they've all made it clear that Misty and all water types are simple to beat with grass and electric types, and this loss she suffered further highlights my point. In a free-for-all situation, Misty has always been at a disadvantage when battling him, and like I said before, it shows in their history.

The only instance where it was shown where she stood any chance of beating him on a more "even" playing field was when they were in a competition that required them to ONLY use water pokemon. Water pokemon are the most abundant types, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Pokeworld is mostly water as ours is. The problem with that however, is that the whole world isn't an aquatic battlefield, and the anime has already established that more aquatic/non-amphibious water types have a difficult time battling on land outside their environment.

I don't see how Misty will master water pokemon when the show has placed her in a paradigm that makes it nigh impossible to accomplish such a feat. But if you had it your way, you'd probably never want her to be portrayed as a powerful trainer, much less beat Ash in a battle because that would just take too much from the plot-based protagonist armor that shields him. I forgot. In this anime, you're not permitted to be potrayed as an excellent trainer unless you're the main character, or a guy...special characters NOT included of course. Being the main character, Ash will be guaranteed wins further down the line as he has two Kahunas to beat, team skull/Aether, and folks at the Alola League when that rolls around. So, him winning here doesn't mean much to me nor would it have taken anything from him if he lost. But that's why I think a win for Misty would've been more impactful and meaningful here.

There are so many factors to consider why Ash won , yet you don't seem to look at all of them, rather the ones that suit your argument because you wanted Misty to win.

At the end of the day, you can't change the outcome.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

"And that's all there is to it". Boy, that sure sounds like a personal criteria for a personal narrative if I've ever seen one.

I already pointed out the basic reasons why Ash won. If you missed it, maybe you should go back and re-read my post? I was merely offering a counter opinion to the idea that, if Misty was indeed not a challenge at all for Ash in this match, then it stands to reason that his win ultimately doesn't amount to much, nor does it reinforce his capabilities as a trainer, or counter the notion that Pikachu was ever "reset".

No one here seriously doubts or calls his abilities/progression into question because he has sufficient trainer feats to show otherwise. Misty simply does NOT have enough comparable feats, and that was one of the points I was trying to make.

 

[SH65]

"And that's all there is to it". Boy, that sure sounds like a personal criteria for a personal narrative if I've ever seen one.

I already pointed out the basic reasons why Ash won. If you missed it, maybe you should go back and re-read my post? I was merely offering a counter opinion to the idea that, if Misty was indeed not a challenge at all for Ash in this match, then it stands to reason that his win ultimately doesn't amount to much, nor does it reinforce his capabilities as a trainer, or counter the notion that Pikachu was ever "reset".

No one here seriously doubts or calls his abilities/progression into question because he has sufficient trainer feats to show otherwise. Misty simply does NOT have enough comparable feats, and that was one of the points I was trying to make.

Misty has to be good to get ME in the first place. And Misty only had 3 Regions while Ash had 6 Regions. Ash is a better Trainer than Misty.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

Misty has to be good to get ME in the first place. And Misty only had 3 Regions while Ash had 6 Regions. Ash is a better Trainer than Misty.

So, that settles it right? Let's hold on for a moment...so, the argument you're offering is the trainer that is more traveled than another is more powerful. Did I get that right? If so, there's a couple problems with that:

To what extent are we measuring the extent of the travels? Do we assume that trainers have to explore and experience entire regions to battle on an even playing field with Ash, or just parts of the region?

Another thing to consider is, we know that Misty has traveled to or been exposed to: Kanto, The Orange Archipelago, Johto, and Hoenn. We don't know how long she was in Hoenn, so let's put that aside for just a bit. The only regions we haven't seen her travel to or mention is Sinnoh and Unova. Again, we don't know exactly where she's been but for the sake of discussion, let's assume she's never been to either of those.

Now, Kalos is a bit strange here imo. Both Misty and Brock have access to Mega Evolution, and that mechanic emerged from the Kalos region. It was also conveniently left out how they received their keystones. Now, whether or not they've personally been to Kalos is besides the point, because in some way, shape, or form, an element of Kalos has been exposed to them, same goes for Alola's Z-power. So, I believe it could be argued that a trainer doesn't have to personally experience the unique battle styles of foreign regions if they are exposed to them in other ways.

-consider Hoenn's Max who was watching tapes of the Johto League Silver Conference
-or consider Paul, who was just as traveled and experienced as Ash, and in some ways more strategic, who couldn't beat Brandon of the Battle Frontier, but Ash was eventually able to.

Don't get me wrong. I do think traveling presents a grand opportunity to experience various pokemon, trainers, and differing battle styles and strategies. For that, on paper, that could simply explain why Ash was stronger and beat her however...I think that there should be a shortcut around that for trainers like her, who may not have the privilege to freely travel as Ash does because of location based obligations.

 

[SH65]

So, that settles it right? Let's hold on for a moment...so, the argument you're offering is the trainer that is more traveled than another is more powerful. Did I get that right? If so, there's a couple problems with that:

To what extent are we measuring the extent of the travels? Do we assume that trainers have to explore and experience entire regions to battle on an even playing field with Ash, or just parts of the region?

Another thing to consider is, we know that Misty has traveled to or been exposed to: Kanto, The Orange Archipelago, Johto, and Hoenn. We don't know how long she was in Hoenn, so let's put that aside for just a bit. The only regions we haven't seen her travel to or mention is Sinnoh and Unova. Again, we don't know exactly where she's been but for the sake of discussion, let's assume she's never been to either of those.

Now, Kalos is a bit strange here imo. Both Misty and Brock have access to Mega Evolution, and that mechanic emerged from the Kalos region. It was also conveniently left out how they received their keystones. Now, whether or not they've personally been to Kalos is besides the point, because in some way, shape, or form, an element of Kalos has been exposed to them, same goes for Alola's Z-power. So, I believe it could be argued that a trainer doesn't have to personally experience the unique battle styles of foreign regions if they are exposed to them in other ways.

-consider Hoenn's Max who was watching tapes of the Johto League Silver Conference
-or consider Paul, who was just as traveled and experienced as Ash, and in some ways more strategic, who couldn't beat Brandon of the Battle Frontier, but Ash was eventually able to.

Don't get me wrong. I do think traveling presents a grand opportunity to experience various pokemon, trainers, and differing battle styles and strategies. For that, on paper, that could simply explain why Ash was stronger and beat her however...I think that there should be a shortcut around that for trainers like her, who may not have the privilege to freely travel as Ash does because of location based obligations.

Yes and thats training thats what Misty does with her pokemon to get stronger. But with traveling Ash can not only get experience as a trainer he can train his pokemon on the way.

 

[Genaller]

Now that I think about it Misty being able to Mega Evolve her Gyaradoss really provides good symbolic closure to her character arc of being afraid of Gyarados as a species to forming a strong bond with one of them. If the writers had this in mind when giving Misty and Brock ME then props to them though that's probably giving them too much credit.

 

[WaterShuriken]

Now that I think about it Misty being able to Mega Evolve her Gyaradoss really provides good symbolic closure to her character arc of being afraid of Gyarados as a species to forming a strong bond with one of them. If the writers had this in mind when giving Misty and Brock ME then props to them though that's probably giving them too much credit.

/10charlimit

 

[Genaller]

/10charlimit

Well old habits die hard XD. The fact that she still has a lingering fear of the species makes it all the more impressive that she could form a bond with her Gyarados that was strong enough for Mega Evolution

 

[TheWanderingMist]

/10charlimit

There's a big difference between being afraid of her own Gyarados and being afraid of a wild one that decided to pop up out of the water.

 

[Frozocrone]

Jump scare is jump scare

 

[lemoncatpower]

Jump scare is jump scare

not to mention Brock ran away from an Onyx in the last episode and no one is mentioning that although the jump scare would be the big difference I guess

 

[ShadowForce720]

You know looking back it's sort of hilarious that in episode 33 of Sun and Moon Lana was joking about catching a Mega Gyarados, and then 10 episodes later we get a episode that has a actual Mega Gyarados in it. lol

Also with whole joke about Lana tricking Ash and the others into thinking that there is a legendary pokemon in the water, and then it being revealed to be just a joke, I wouldn't be that surprised and it would be pretty hilarious if the one time they don't believer her is the one time she is actually serious and telling the truth about there being a legendary or Mega nearby.

 

[Shiny-Psyduck]

Yeah this has probably been mentioned but I'm not determined enough to look through every post here: I love how both Brock and Misty did their poses from the original games when mega evolving their pokemon. A nice touch. I wonder if they're trying to advertsie the VC RB doing that although they're a little late.

 

[Genaller]

Pretty sure Pikachu barely took any damage so I wouldn't say "Misty had Ash on the ropes" but maybe the battle would have been closer had Pikachu not had a Z-move. Brock vs Kiawe on the other hand was closer than some might think since Brock states something along the lines of "that hurt Steelix pretty badly, but it couldn't finish the job".

 

[345ash-greninja]

Lol Mega Gyarados lost without dealing any damage. 'Misty had Ash on the ropes' LMAO.

 

[Dragalge]

Lol Mega Gyarados lost without dealing any damage. 'Misty had Ash on the ropes' LMAO.

I think Gyarados hit Pikachu with Hydro Pump and Hurricane (Was that the move?)? Not saying I disagree with you (yet) but I think Pikachu got hit by some attack of sorts. And I think Navin is referring to how Misty was always thinking of something to counter attack Pikachu whenever it tried to get the upper hand apart from being hit with Quick Attack and escaping that typhoon of water.